Supplements

Agree. From the research I have done in the past, it can cause problems.

JD -- I have been through this process with my oldest 2 sons. I have permitted its use, within reason, but they never experienced dramatic results. Now I have a few jars sitting in the pantry, collecting dust.

A number of coaches at our high school are discouraging its use. Perhaps they have seen a negative impact -- or no noticable positives.

-PD

jesuit,

Personally, I would rather see lefty hit the weight room instead of the creatine. While I don't know that there is significant good or bad effects, it seems the mindset to start looking for ways to increase size/strength outside nuitrition and hard work leads to problems when creatine no longer seems to help (if it ever did) and the individual starts looking for something stronger to help and that leads to congressional hearings to determine if the federal government needs to intervene in baseball to rid the game of steroids.

Plus, I like you too much to see your kid get so big and strong that he whips you!

SHORTCUT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I agree with the last two posts. There is no substitute for hard work.

T-Bird dad, as you know he can already whip me. I agree with you and all of the other posters that hard work is the way to go. I have made the decision to tell him no to the creatine and yes to working hard.

jesuit,

Good call, now let's hope he listens to you better than T-Bird listens to me. He doesn't want creatine, he just thinks I belong to the Perot family and can buy him every piece of baseball equipment that is listed in the Baseball Express catalog.

Might be a more expensive problem that performance enhancing stuff...

So true -- how do you unsubscribe to those catalogs -- they're killing me!

BTW, everything I found said that athletes do need more than the normally recommended (for non-athletes) amount of protein. But the consensus seemed to be that the extra protein be obtained the old fashioned way - eating meat.

So, what is creatine? Our bodies naturally make the compound, which is used to supply energy to our muscles. It is produced in the liver, pancreas, and kidneys, and is transported to the body's muscles through the bloodstream. Once it reaches the muscles, it is converted into phosphocreatine (creatine phosphate). This high-powered metabolite is used to regenerate the muscles' ultimate energy source, ATP (adenosine triphosphate).

Unlike steroids or drugs, creatine is 100% natural and occurs naturally in many foods; therefore, it can never be banned from any sports or international competitions (unless they banned eating meat). Many foods especially herring, salmon, tuna, and beef contain some creatine. However, the very best source of creatine by far is creatine monohydrate because it contains more creatine per weight of material than any other source. Bodybuilding.com sells only high quality 99.9% pure pharmaceutical-grade creatine monohydrate.

What does it do and what scientific studies give evidence to support this?
Creatine is bodybuilding's ultimate supplement, and for good reason. For one thing, creatine can significantly increase lean muscle mass in just two weeks. It is also responsible for improving performance in high-intensity exercise, increasing energy levels, and speeding up recovery rates. It's no wonder athletes who use it have such of an edge over those who do not. Soon nearly every athlete who competes will use it (if they don't already). Creatine's ability to enhance energy reserves in muscles comes from its muscle protein synthesizing action, while minimizing protein breakdown. This occurs because creatine has the awesome effect of super-hydrating muscle cells with water. It enhances muscles' growth too-making muscle fibers bigger and stronger.

Quite a few studies have been done on creatine to figure out why and how it works so well. There have been over twenty double blind (meaning neither the researchers nor the subjects knew who was getting what), placebo-controlled studies conducted on creatine in the past five years. They proved that creatine increased energy levels, resulting in increased strength, endurance levels, and recovery rates. Another unexpected benefit attributed to creatine was discovered as well: creatine accelerates fat loss, while building lean body mass!

Who needs it and what are some symptoms of deficiency?
First, anyone who is ready to have more energy, build more muscle faster, and have more endurance should try supplementing with creatine monohydrate. Next, anyone who would like to be more toned by increasing lean muscle mass, recuperating faster, and losing that extra little fat roll should supplement with creatine monohydrate. Last, anyone who is involved in intense physical activity, experiencing physical stress and fatigue, and likes incredible results should supplement with creatine monohydrate.

How much should be taken? Are there any side effects?
Excellent results have been observed in taking creatine monohydrate in two different ways. The first way is called loading. This method works very well for anyone who has never taken creatine before. Just as the name implies, it involves loading up or saturating your muscles with creatine. During the first four days to a week, take 20 to 30 grams per day. Mix it with non-acidic juice or water. Grape juice works well. After this loading period, take a regular intake of between five to fifteen grams per day to keep your muscles saturated (no need to over do it). The other method is a more gradual approach to supplementing with creatine monohydrate. Over the course of an extended period, one basically skips the loading phase and just supplements with five to fifteen grams per day, everyday. The best results have been noticed when creatine is combined with a high carbohydrate base, such as dextrose (glucose) and taken about one-half hour before training.

The best part about creatine-no adverse effects have been reported in any studies. NONE! Creatine is totally safe and effective. Creatine has never been shown harmfully toxic. Nevertheless, just like with anything, it is not recommended to over-supplement once your muscles are saturated with creatine-there is no reason to. This means, stick to the recommended dosages, and be prepared to experience the very best muscle, strength, energy, and endurance gains possible!

Don't Judge A Book by It's Cover. Just because Creatine is sold in the same store where there are "shortcuts" and other things that are not natural. This doesn't mean creatine is just another shortcut, creatine is a tool that will allow to work harder to become stronger. No where did it say creatine improves muscles mass just by taking it like steriods, it say you have to eat right, workout hard, and then you will become stronger.

The Mayo Clinic seems to disagree with you, tn1. They don't recommend it. Nothing personal, but I'll take the Mayo Clinic's word for it.

"CREATINE

Creatine monohydrate is a compound produced by your body that helps release energy in your muscles. Creatine is a naturally occurring compound — you can ingest creatine from protein-rich foods such as meat or fish, or you can take a nutritional supplement. Supplements are available over the counter.

Unlike androstenedione, scientific research indicates that creatine may have some benefit — it can produce small gains in short-term bursts of power.

"Most of the research points to small improvements in short-term power activities like improving maximum-weight bench press or increasing speed during cycling sprints of very short duration," says Edward Laskowski, M.D., a physical medicine and rehabilitation specialist at Mayo Clinic, Rochester, Minn., and co-director of Mayo Clinic's Sports Medicine Center. "Some studies have shown an increase in lean muscle mass with creatine. As a result, we've got a lot of press on creatine producing steroid-like results without the side effects."

Creatine helps muscles make and circulate more adenosine triphosphate (ATP). ATP is used for quick, explosive bursts of activity, as in weightlifting or sprinting. Creatine also reduces energy waste products — such as lactic acid — that can cause muscle fatigue. As a result, creatine is purported to enhance performance and decrease fatigue. But there's no evidence that creatine enhances performance in aerobic or endurance sports.

Your liver produces about 2 grams of creatine each day. You can also get creatine from the meat in your diet. Creatine is stored in your muscles, and levels are relatively easily maintained. Because your kidneys remove excess creatine, the value of supplements to someone who already has a high muscle creatine content is questionable.

Possible side effects of creatine that can decrease athletic performance include:

* Stomach cramps
* Muscle cramps
* Nausea
* Vomiting
* Diarrhea

Weight gain is a known side effect of creatine — one that is sought after by athletes who need to increase their size. But with prolonged creatine use, weight gain is more likely the result of water retention than an increase in muscle tissue. Water is drawn into your muscle tissue, away from other parts of your body. This puts you at risk of dehydration.

High-dose creatine use may potentially damage your:

* Kidneys
* Liver
* Heart

It's unknown what kind of effect taking creatine has over the long term, especially on teens or younger children. Dosage levels vary widely, depending on which product you use and how much creatine you take.

Since creatine isn't regulated by the Food and Drug Administration (FDA), you can't be sure of the purity of creatine supplements you buy on the market. Studies have found varying mixtures of creatine in different creatine products. And some of the inactive ingredients mixed in with the creatine may cause significant side effects, such as allergic reactions.

The bottom line is that the safety of taking creatine is questionable. Most studies involving creatine use examine the performance-enhancing aspects, and side effects are generally reported only anecdotally."

Mayo Clinic Link

I agree and disagree with parts of your article Texan.

quote:

Creatine helps muscles make and circulate more adenosine triphosphate (ATP). ATP is used for quick, explosive bursts of activity, as in weightlifting or sprinting. Creatine also reduces energy waste products — such as lactic acid — that can cause muscle fatigue. As a result, creatine is purported to enhance performance and decrease fatigue. But there's no evidence that creatine enhances performance in aerobic or endurance sports.

I do feel a differnce when i take creatine and when I don't. When I take it, I need a day of rest to recover to a point where there is no mucsle soreness. However, when I dont take it it takes me 2-3 days to recover to same point, with similar workouts and training routines.

quote:

Weight gain is a known side effect of creatine — one that is sought after by athletes who need to increase their size. But with prolonged creatine use, weight gain is more likely the result of water retention than an increase in muscle tissue. Water is drawn into your muscle tissue, away from other parts of your body. This puts you at risk of dehydration.

First, I assume if you are taking more that 25+ grams a day (I normally take 10) that is when you can get into trouble.

Second, the weight gain is about 1-5%. I dont know but im still growing so i don't know much about this than I didn't gain a lot of weight from nowhere.

Third, If you drink a healthy amount of water a day about 8-10 cups you wont get dehydrated, this only happens in sever cases.

Finally I haven't experienced any side effects, and I buy from a trusted brand.

tn1,

Is "exprenixed" a technical term or is your previous post an ad from a body-building web-site?

I think much of this discussion is to point out that young kids that use it may consider it a quick-fix -- leading to misuse and the misconception that fewer reps or weight room sessions are required.

Dads -- I don't want to downplay medical research but, in my experience, the use of creatine as a suppliment for our baseball playing sons is more of a fad. For me, the risk is in the chance that teen-agers will use creatine as a "stepping stone" to stronger enhancement substances.

Saying no to creatine sends a consistent message as the kids face tougher temptations when it comes to bulking up.

JMO.

tn1, it isn't "my" study. That info is from the Mayo Clinic, one of the more respected medical institutions in the world.

IMHO, PD has hit on some important points. One, is the "quick fix" myth to which kids can fall prey. The other is sending a consistent message.

Finally, why use it at all when proper diet (for an athlete) can take care of the body's needs without the additional risk of an artificial supplement?

Just eat lots of meat.

Proper diet & a good multi-vitamin is all ANYONE needs!!!.

Some like to "justify" taking creatine, etc....but the issue is... what does your body NEED?
It does not need extra creatine...

Again, SHORTCUT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I am not sure I understand the "SHORTCUT" line of thinking or the line of thinking that taking a supplement is an option to not working hard or hitting the weight room.
Kids can supplement all they want but if they don't work hard in the weight room, on the track, on the field, etc. any gains will be minimal at best, if any. You can only reap the true benefits of supplements if you combine them with hard work.
I know there are very many varying opinions on creatine, but what is wrong with a kid taking a good protein and vitamin powder or supplement instead of putting a pound or 2 of red meat into his gut everyday?

Texan, I respect those veiws of the Mayo CLinic, I am just saying some of their information is more on the extreme side.


Texan, and eatting a lot of meat is a lot more harmful for you that take creatine which is made in the body. And what is wrong with being able to work hard?

Panther Dad, you are correct on the fact creatine is not a bulk me up drug, it doesnt increase muscle mass, ALL IT DOES IS GIVE YOU A QUICKER RECOVERY TIME. I guess people have a misconception that is an artifical substance that you can get a couple more grams of a day and you will be a little less sore.

Vanlandingham, How is it a shortcut?


H&b, With Creatine it allows you to work harder and more ofton and that is a good thing IN MY Opinon.

And yes i would agree that some kids shouldn't take creatine because it may lead them to take stuff that is harmful in the long run.


I don't want to make this a big ole' argument I just want to challenge others in their thinking, because I think they are giving them an unfair lable to a thing that can make you a better athlete without doing (a) horrbile thing(s).



By the way Pd tht was a typo!

quote:

Originally posted by the next...1:
Texan, and eatting a lot of meat is a lot more harmful for you that take creatine which is made in the body. And what is wrong with being able to work hard?

With all due respect, tn1, I really don't think that statement can be justified.

We'll just have to agree to disagree on this topic.

I'll go with Mayo on the beef, & you'll "hold the Mayo" I guess.

quote:

I just want to challenge others in their thinking...

That (quote above) is a 2-way street...

quote:

With Creatine it allows you to work harder and more ofton...

That is why people use their brain...to think & reason...to work harder, to eat an extra meal, to drink water, to rest, to use "reliable, reputable sources" for information or tried & true methods...and most importantly, to understand there is no "magic".

Kids need to think...

I can honestly say that I have thought about Creatine as a supplement for my son. I have personally used Creatine (mid 90's) without any of the side effects and did see initial short term improvement. The problem with this subject,we are talking about teenage boys, whose hormone levels, growth plates, muscles, ligaments, tendons, organs, etc. are still developing. Is the risk worth the reward? for me, not at this time.

My son is 15, almost 16. If he were 18, almost 19 I might consider this option more. If we did do Creatine, he would not do the loading method, instead, he would take 5 to 10 grams a day for 1 month, every other month.

For those who want to quote studies or Mayo clinic reports, there are no references sited so that the more analytical mind can follow-up. If, I were to suggest to my son that he take Creatine, or any exotic new supplement, I would want to know the long term effects, especially on the teenage athlete. Creatine, as a supplement,has been around for at least 15 years. So there should be data, at least annectdotal, on the potential long term effects.

Again, my son will not be taking Creatine. This is my 2 cents worth.

I used Creatine extensively in for about 4 years. I did not find any side effects other than bloating and cramping, if I did not drink enough water.
It did increase my gains in the weight room and sped up my recovery. If I was still a competitive athlete, I would probably still take it. That said I do not take it now because I don't like the bloating.
If you are going to allow your child to do it, I would not suggest the loading phase. That is a lot to ask your body to process. 5 grams before work out and 5 grams before bed always worked well for me.
Creatine is not a shortcut. It does nothing for you if you don't lift and exert yourself.
If you want good information on Creatine I suggest the Train Station fitness show Sat. mornings at 7:00. 1310 am

Insitutions such as the Mayo are not in the habit of throwing out unsubstantiated reports. More details can be found via web searching or contacting the institutions conducting research.

quote:

Originally posted by Texan:
Insitutions such as the Mayo are not in the habit of throwing out unsubstantiated reports. More details can be found via web searching or contacting the institutions conducting research.

I never said unsubstantiated. I merely referenced the fact that the report itself does not reference any studies relative to the use of Creatine. If you took that report to the sports medicince dept at Baylor Medical School, there doctors may say, show me a study that supports there position. As a matter of fact, as I read the report again, it is unsubstantiated. If this report were pro Creatine, would you let your son take Creatine? just because they said it was alright and using a lot of big words and scientific sounding phrases doesn't mean its substantiated.

If I showed this report to another physician, they would say it's unsubstantiated, they may agree with it, but it is still a report of the science about different supplements and there opinion of the effects these supplements have on athletes.

My comment relative to your post and "the next...1" post, was simply do your own research. don't let a message board that does not provide all the facts, help you make your decision about something as valuable as your son's long term health!

Kirk, if that summary was from the South Plano Association for Medical Studies, then I would be more concerned about the quality of the research and the quality of the researchers. I don't have such concerns about reports issued by the Mayo Clinic. Just as a report from St. Luke's or M.D. Anderson in Houston would carry weight to me. I believe that most folks place credence done by these institutions.

I agree with you on someone doing their homework. I provided a link to the report, so that people could verify the source for themselves. If someone wants to dig deeper, they are welcome to do so. But relatively few people have the training to understand the technical details of medical studies.

By all means, people should do their homework. And they should look at the credibility of who is performing the research and performing.