My son and I would appreciate constructive reviews of his swing. Thanks in advance...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f2h2dhgoIzQ
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I am sure you will get lots of additional feedback, but the first thing that stands out to me is a lack of balance. Your son's feet are moving differently on each swing. Try to build a more stable base with his legs and try to develop a repeatable swing.
If he repeated that every time he would have a good foundation to work from. Does he extend his arms prematurely?
I think he has the basis for stretch...I think he could transfer the energy (for lack of better word) if he had a little more bend in his stance.
The rear elbow is dropping maybe a touch too soon...it drops as soon as the front toe touches down. At heel drop, it is about 45 degrees downward.
His lower body forward movement is good. He keeps the front foot closed until just before touch. He efficiently moves from foot plant, to front knee open, to hip open. Going back to my first paragraph...I think a little bend in the waist would allow him better separation...along with tweaking the dropping of the rear elbow.
Those will allow for better stretch.
I'd like to see a front or rear view.
I think he has the basis for a good swing. I think he has good sequence...it just neeeds some tweaking. I think he is close.
The rear elbow is dropping maybe a touch too soon...it drops as soon as the front toe touches down. At heel drop, it is about 45 degrees downward.
His lower body forward movement is good. He keeps the front foot closed until just before touch. He efficiently moves from foot plant, to front knee open, to hip open. Going back to my first paragraph...I think a little bend in the waist would allow him better separation...along with tweaking the dropping of the rear elbow.
Those will allow for better stretch.
I'd like to see a front or rear view.
I think he has the basis for a good swing. I think he has good sequence...it just neeeds some tweaking. I think he is close.
http://hsbaseballweb.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/6616002781/m/6741046903
I think the training aid from this thread may help.
I think the training aid from this thread may help.
quote:The rear elbow is dropping maybe a touch too soon...it drops as soon as the front toe touches down.
Elbow dropping doesn't concern me....Swinging when front foot touches down does...I think elbow can be down, but he shouldn't be swinging the bat....Should be stretching backward at that point...
quote:I think he has good sequence...
I think sequencing is his problem....
quote:I think he has the basis for a good swing........I think he is close.
I agree....
Other than the rear arm...I thought the sequence was OK. Although, I guess it can't be OK. lol 
I am 13 and I have been trained by a very good hitting insructor . He has showed me the right swing and he has showed me the wrong swing. Your son has the foundation of a great swing he just needs a couple minor adjustments. First off when his front leg comes up his back shoulder automaticlly drops. Now I am not saying that everyone has a perfect swing but some people that work hard get very close. Second he has his front leg lifting up to high for his age. My hitting instructor says that you should never lift your leg like tha unless you are in college or the Majors. And third of all his finsh. He doesn't follow through all the way through. Once he follows all the way through he will develop great power. These are just things that I see. Hope this helps you.
Wayback, the reason I say the back elbow doesn't concern me is 'cause we know some MLB hitters never raise it to begin with....Not many, but some...
You did see the same thing I did with the sequencing being off when the front foot hits the ground....
You did see the same thing I did with the sequencing being off when the front foot hits the ground....
quote:The rear elbow is dropping maybe a touch too soon...it drops as soon as the front toe touches down. At heel drop, it is about 45 degrees downward.
I agree, but I think the real problem is that he is already starting the bathead to the ball at this point, he has very little wrist angle going into contact. Another thing I see is that he appears to be leaning back at contact. This could be due to the fact that he has already shifted his weight or that he is loosing much of his momentum away from the ball because he has started the bathead too soon. Once the back elbow/wrist angle problem is fixed, it may fix that problem as well.
quote:This could be due to the fact that he has already shifted his weight or that he is loosing much of his momentum away from the ball because he has started the bathead too soon.
Yessir....If your sequencing is timed improperly, your weight shift will be out of time....
BlueDog. The Major league players have alot more wrist strength than anyone who plays at this lever of baseball. So he just needs to move it up just a bit. I think. I have a batting stance like Ryan Howard so this might be why I think this is so important.
Catcher, your hitting instructor is a technique guy?
I used the rear elbow as a point of reference because I think there are two ways of making the adjustment based on what type of swing he has.
Some guys start with the barrel out of plane, and move into plane as the hips are opening (and creating separation) before hands/arms bring barrel to the ball.
Some guys start with barrel already in plane and use a different timing mechanism to delay upper body/barrel.
I think he falls in the latter catagory. I think if he elevated the rear elbow a little more (or delayed it's descent), it would create his timing mechanism.
Some guys start with the barrel out of plane, and move into plane as the hips are opening (and creating separation) before hands/arms bring barrel to the ball.
Some guys start with barrel already in plane and use a different timing mechanism to delay upper body/barrel.
I think he falls in the latter catagory. I think if he elevated the rear elbow a little more (or delayed it's descent), it would create his timing mechanism.
Wayback,
I agree, his is a one plane swing. I don't think you'll see too many 2 plane swings before College age, but maybe a few. John Cohen always talks about "shaft to shoulder" relationship. He wants the shaft no more than a couple of inches from the rear shoulder at launch and works with both one plane and two plane swings. That que would help this hitter, IMO.
I agree, his is a one plane swing. I don't think you'll see too many 2 plane swings before College age, but maybe a few. John Cohen always talks about "shaft to shoulder" relationship. He wants the shaft no more than a couple of inches from the rear shoulder at launch and works with both one plane and two plane swings. That que would help this hitter, IMO.
Ryan Howard
I think it would serve him well to seek similar type swings, and see their patterns and sequence.
I think it would serve him well to seek similar type swings, and see their patterns and sequence.
quote:
I agree (in principal) with what you are tring to accomplish with lifting the rear shoulder, but if he continues to fire his top hand too soon it won't fix his problem. The "shaft to shoulder" que gives the hitter something to be aware of to check on each practice swing or cage swing until he gets the problem fixed. Kind of a "Mike Weir" type check.
Fair enough. I'm using the elbow as a point of reference, but it really involves feeling the whole body move. It's the load moving through the body in sequence.
I am a bit less eloquent than you in relating it to others. As you know...I have only one student and I'm more of a student than a teacher.
I think we're pretty close...which is good.
I am a bit less eloquent than you in relating it to others. As you know...I have only one student and I'm more of a student than a teacher.
I think we're pretty close...which is good.
quote:I agree (in principal) with what you are tring to accomplish with lifting the rear shoulder, but if he continues to fire his top hand too soon it won't fix his problem.
I think, sometimes, the hands fire too early because the rear arm is dropping too soon. The hands go forward to stay ahead of the elbow.
The one plane swingers seem to pinch the front shoulder a little more, and the rear elbow elevates as the front arm stretches across the chest and the hands stay relative to the shoulder.
He needs to understand the sequence and maintain momentum. If he knows what he is seeking, he will find the way that fits him.
Tom has always talked about an X-factor stretch move that MLB hitters do....Some will say it's a scapula load thing or a back elbow thing or some other body part thing....I only know it does happen.....
When the back hip fires forward into the swing, the hands stretch backward and inward into a really late load tightening....This creates a delay between the hips and the hands...
I see the back elbow dropping as the late hands load happens....That's what I see, anyway...
And, when I swing a bat, I feel the back elbow dropping during this late hands loading, also...
When the back hip fires forward into the swing, the hands stretch backward and inward into a really late load tightening....This creates a delay between the hips and the hands...
I see the back elbow dropping as the late hands load happens....That's what I see, anyway...
And, when I swing a bat, I feel the back elbow dropping during this late hands loading, also...
quote:And, when I swing a bat, I feel the back elbow dropping during this late hands loading, also...
I agree.
From what I've seen, MLB swings are around shoulder height at foot plant (90 degrees from the ground). The poster was less than 45 degrees. His hands have to begin too soon in a subconscious act to stay ahead of the rear elbow. He needs an earlier mechanism that will allow him to drop rear elbow, but not force the hands to move too soon.
Either start the rear elbow higher (like Ryan Howard or to an extreme, Kevin Youkilis...not really, just pointing out that it is done), or elevate it during the forward stride. I would have him tinker with each to see if one is more effective than the other for him.
I find this clip to be a good example of sequencing....Back hip firing while the hands are going back....
I use that same one, along with ones of Bonds, Pujols and Hamilton to explain synchronization.
I always think it is important when using video in any discussion to keep in mind that pitch location and type of pitch will affect the swing. For example, the ability to stay connected on an inside fastball for additional frames OR the necessity to lose some connection on pitches away. Factor in pitches that break or changes of speed as well. So, we can all find video to make any number of points. Finding some common ground to discuss a swing then becomes "the trick."
In viewing this young man's swing, I'd first start with posture. I don't like the upright position of his body. I'd ask him to tilt more at the pelvis. Next, that elbow dropping is a sympton of something bigger. He drops that elbow and drops his hands to get on plane with the pitch. If he had that "tilt" I referenced, he'd be able to maintain connection better. I've had hitters before that showed the back of the stride foot to the pitcher and so, I don't have a problem with any of that. On the footplant and hips firing, I can see the need, again, to become more efficient. Well, that's a good start. Thanks for posting the video.
In viewing this young man's swing, I'd first start with posture. I don't like the upright position of his body. I'd ask him to tilt more at the pelvis. Next, that elbow dropping is a sympton of something bigger. He drops that elbow and drops his hands to get on plane with the pitch. If he had that "tilt" I referenced, he'd be able to maintain connection better. I've had hitters before that showed the back of the stride foot to the pitcher and so, I don't have a problem with any of that. On the footplant and hips firing, I can see the need, again, to become more efficient. Well, that's a good start. Thanks for posting the video.
quote:Originally posted by BlueDog:
Tom has always talked about an X-factor stretch move that MLB hitters do....Some will say it's a scapula load thing or a back elbow thing or some other body part thing....I only know it does happen.....
When the back hip fires forward into the swing, the hands stretch backward and inward into a really late load tightening....This creates a delay between the hips and the hands...
I see the back elbow dropping as the late hands load happens....That's what I see, anyway...
And, when I swing a bat, I feel the back elbow dropping during this late hands loading, also...
I agree! It's not how you get the stretch, but when and how much. Manny pulls his elbow up to get his stretch. Bruce pulls his back while having it high to start. Morneau and Mauer have their elbow down and pull back more with their hands. A young hitter can actually have his elbow at his side as long as he gets his hands back as his back hip fires or late in his forward stride, IMO.
Stretch here, stretch there, stretch back, stretch down. Sorry I dont believe in stretch or eccentric contraction.
quote:Originally posted by LAball:
Stretch here, stretch there, stretch back, stretch down. Sorry I dont believe in stretch or eccentric contraction.
I'm always open to new ideas. Do you have video (that you can post) of a MLB hitter not getting stretch?
quote:It's not how you get the stretch, but when and how much. Manny pulls his elbow up to get his stretch. Bruce pulls his back while having it high to start. Morneau and Mauer have their elbow down and pull back more with their hands.
I do agree.
quote:A young hitter can actually have his elbow at his side as long as he gets his hands back as his back hip fires or late in his forward stride, IMO.
I'm not sure I agree with it as I am interpreting it (which may just mean I'm not interpreting it right. lol) Are you saying elbow begins at, say 45 degree angle, and never elevates to, say shoulder height before coming down?
quote:I'm not sure I agree with it as I am interpreting it (which may just mean I'm not interpreting it right. lol) Are you saying elbow begins at, say 45 degree angle, and never elevates to, say shoulder height before coming down?
Yes, my Son didn't raise his elbow for years and hit very well at his level with very good power. I'm not saying pinned to the side, but not raised. I would say maybe 6 inches off the side and then hide the hands. I am also not saying this would work for MLB, but it certainly did up to High School.
I also don't think Ted Williams raised his elbow much either, but he did pull it back to get his stretch.
quote:I also don't think Ted Williams raised his elbow much either, but he did pull it back to get his stretch.
You are right, I have noticed his does not start high or elevate.
I do notice on my son, the lower slotted elbow is a problem. It gets him out of synch and creates other timing related problems trying to fix it. Once we video'd him and saw it, he went back to driving the ball in air. Something that was simple but missed by team coaches.
I never really understood why, but a lot of Lefthanded hitters start with a low back elbow. Like you said before, I think each hitter needs to find what works for them and body type has some to do with that.
OHdaddio,
Two things stand out for me. One, it looks like his swing is "long", sort of an upper-cut with dropping the back shoulder. This will lengthen his swing which takes longer to get to contact. Secondly, it looks like he takes his head off the ball. Maybe have him concentrate on keeping his head down longer and through contact with the ball. The hands and body will follow the eyes.
Good luck!
Two things stand out for me. One, it looks like his swing is "long", sort of an upper-cut with dropping the back shoulder. This will lengthen his swing which takes longer to get to contact. Secondly, it looks like he takes his head off the ball. Maybe have him concentrate on keeping his head down longer and through contact with the ball. The hands and body will follow the eyes.
Good luck!
quote:The hands and body will follow the eyes.
Actually, the hands and body will follow learned body movement....The movement of the eyes won't change that.....
The movement or non-movement of the head is dictated by how the body is moving.....And, even more to the point, when and how the body is moving....As related to weight shift and stretch, which enables/maintains momentum.....
At least, the way I see it....Not that I know, or anything....
quote:I agree! It's not how you get the stretch, but when and how much. Manny pulls his elbow up to get his stretch. Bruce pulls his back while having it high to start. Morneau and Mauer have their elbow down and pull back more with their hands. A young hitter can actually have his elbow at his side as long as he gets his hands back as his back hip fires or late in his forward stride, IMO.
Power, there's alot of good stuff here.....
MLB hitters do have more than one pattern to attain stretch....The important thing is to keep stretching till the back hip fires....That's where MLB hitters differ from amateur hitters....
Folks,
There are some excellent suggestions here for my son's improvement. We reviewed them last night and the sequence/stretch cues should be easy enough for him to incorporate. We've approached his hitting improvement as our Winter Project and he's making some nice strides. His goal is to make his high school team. I keep reminding him that freshman tryouts are only 14 months away. He's 13 yo, in grade eight and is 6'0''/168#.
He has a private lesson with Erik Laseke/Instructo Swing tonight. I've come to respect Erik's contributions to the hitting forums and look forward to his help.
Thank all of you for yours...
There are some excellent suggestions here for my son's improvement. We reviewed them last night and the sequence/stretch cues should be easy enough for him to incorporate. We've approached his hitting improvement as our Winter Project and he's making some nice strides. His goal is to make his high school team. I keep reminding him that freshman tryouts are only 14 months away. He's 13 yo, in grade eight and is 6'0''/168#.
He has a private lesson with Erik Laseke/Instructo Swing tonight. I've come to respect Erik's contributions to the hitting forums and look forward to his help.
Thank all of you for yours...
quote:Originally posted by powertoallfields:quote:Originally posted by LAball:
Stretch here, stretch there, stretch back, stretch down. Sorry I dont believe in stretch or eccentric contraction.
I'm always open to new ideas. Do you have video (that you can post) of a MLB hitter not getting stretch?
Sorry I havent gotten into posting videos. Dont know how and 2 lazy to learn. I would say there is seperation of Hip and shoulder in the MLB swing, but I wouldnt call it stretch and then rebound to add power ( like stretching a rubber band )
-Power in the MLB swing comes from an mechanical alignment of the front hip JOINT to have closed chained internal rotation during the swing. Amature hitters have misalignment of the pelvis on the femor = less hip joint internal rotation = less pevlic rotation to square up to the ball = needing to use the arms to rotate to square up to the ball. At least thats what I feel, but Im not in the MLB so go figue
