Switch to Side-Arm?

FID,

Welcome to HSBBW...

Personally, as you to seem to be already, I would be somewhat apprehensive about the change. Arm slots are funny things because if it is not managed correctly injury could follow.

Is the coach offering to spend the time required with your son to work with him on the change? Is the coach specifically a pitching coach or a general practitioner type of coach? Is his background and specialty in pitching or some other area like hitting?

The problem I have seen with kids who throw good CB's is that they fall in love with it and will often neglect the other essential pitches in his arsenal unless they are encouraged otherwise. The FB and change are a must. The FB is what will make that CB all the better. It is vital if he wants to become an effective pitcher.

If you are worried about velocity...well it is what it is, but it can always improve through good instruction on pitching mechanics. Find a good coach and I mean a good one that is experienced and who you question in depth about his philosophy and techniques. Just because a guy pitched in the pros doesn't mean he is a good coach. Finding the right guy is essential as developing the FB and change.

Velocity will often improve on a refining of the mechanics. Don't try to make your son something he isn't but let him develop as nature sees fit. However, a huge caveat here is that he is able and willing to put the work into improving. At this age he needs to understand this point. It's not all about skill anymore, but about skill, work and good instruction from a coach he trusts.

I'll be interested to read other responses you get.

I've followed college baseball closely for over 20 years. My son pitched in college. My own observation (nothing data-based) is that while there are certainly sidearm/submarine pitchers in many (most?) college staffs, nearly all of those made the switch after reaching college as a way to get off the bench.

I don't know of any (althought there are undoubtedly some) who made the switch before college.

Just one person's observation, nothing more.

I'm no expert at all, But I don't believe I've seen any sidearm pitchers

Now if he is talking about submariner then I have seen a few.
And they are effective.

Not knowing your son's velocity, you say he doesn't throw hard.
Then Sometime's players need to make changes in there approuch to the game.

True story, Brad Ziegler relieve pitcher for the Oakland A's.
Was a Starting RH Pitcher in HS, College And the Minor's.
Led the Texas League AA minor's in Win's and Strikeout's.
Threw overhand all his life.
Asked the pitching cordinator for the A's minor league's, What does he need to do to make it to the big league's.
The PC said why don't we try switching to the Submarine style
and see how that goes.
Well Brad did switch to a submariner, and within 2 years he was almost voted Rookie of the Year and Reliever of the year in the MLB.
So who know's?
I'm not advocaiting any change just conveying a story.

EH

Both D1 schools my son played had a submariner, the coaches seemed to like having a major arm slot change to throw at hitters. I know one of the pitchers came from a jc as a submariner, don't know if he was one in high school. I think the other may have been a walk-on. Both saw a lot of ininings.

You don't say how hard he is throwing now, or his size, or if he has hit his growth spurt yet. I would tend to agree with JB, and that he will need to hit a certain velocity regardless of arm slot to be considered a college pitching candidate. I also agree with Coach Waltrip that there is a lot of velocity developed through good mechanics. He also needs to get on a long toss program as well as strength and conditioning to find his velocity ceiling with his "natural" arm slot. I would do all this before messing around with his arm slot.

BTW welcome and put this kind of stuff in the pitching thread, you will probably get more input from the pitching types.

There was a HS sidearmer from our general area who ended up at UC Irvine if I remember correctly. He was very effective against top competition in HS even though he threw low to mid 80s. MTS would probably know more about him. I'll have to look at their stats to see if he got any innings.

So lets say this is a great move for him. That it is a more natural throw for him, there are no injuries, and he does become a more effective pitcher(gets batters out). The velocity still won't be there. Coach gave son names of a few very successful side-arm pitchers (not truly submariners) and we looked them up on the Internet. Most are relievers and throw a good 10-15 mph less than the starting pitchers. I'm told that due to body mechanics it's impossible to throw as hard side-arm as you can overhand. So does this kill his chances at being looked at by a college since they look at velocity first and he won't be there?

I apologize, I probably should have put this post on the Recruiting Forum as it is about son's ability to be recruited.

They all look at velocity first, But after that they must look at ability to get batter's out.
A fastball gets hit if the pitcher's has nothing else to follow up with.
So they look at how effective is this pitcher, How can I use them in my lineup.
Velocity is one way, Pitching to location and changeing your speed is also very effective.
Keeping a batter uncomfortable is the best way to win the battle.

EH

Couple of things. One is, I think the point the coach was making was that as a 3/4 thrower, to go sidearm or submarine, you would keep the same arm slot, just lean the trunk of your body to the pitching arm side. I don't know that this is really changing arm slot, but changing body tilt.

The other thing I will add is a similar story to what EH talked about. Son's pitching coach was a sidearm/submarine guy. Pitched his whole life "regular". Played in college, drafted and kind of muddled through the minors and independent leagues for a while. While in the minors, he had a pitching coach suggest he go sub. Shortly thereafter, he made it to the bigs and was a reliever, mostly for the Braves for 3 or 4 years. Worked for him, might not for everyone. He does not teach the submarine to everyone, but has a few guys he coaches with that style. Tough decision.

Why don't you give it a try in some bullpens and see how it works. I don't know that velocity will suffer much. The MLB guys who throw submarine throw pretty hard. I believe the guy in my story threw low 90's as a submarine/sidearm guy.

FID...
I could have written your post a year ago! My son made the switch and it did lower his velocity. But he is very effective now and it has been a wonderful switch for him(and for his team!). I am very interested in hearing what coaches from showcase teams or even colleges have to say about this.

FID you can PM me if you'd like...

The term they use now is "summer" (and just about every team can use one)
The guy that threw the 30 innings in a row (or how many) last year in NAIA playoffs was a summer.

I wouldn't let anyone mess with my pitchers arm slot unless he was a pro at it.
Summers can make good relief guys, but very rarely move to the next level.

A Sophomore at my sons JUCO made the switch to submariner when he got there and just this fall signed to play at a good mid-major D1 program next year!

I don't think velocity is what they look at when they look at submariners. I think effectiveness and deception are the key factors for them.

Good luck.

If your very effective and have a great velo no one is going to ask you to make this change. If you have average to below velo and your not very effective a move like this can be a game changer for you and the team. I have seen guys turn their entire baseball career around by making this move. They go from being an average pitcher at best to being a guy that makes a difference.

The key is getting the player to buy into the fact they will be better and the team will be better by them making the move.

Thanks Coach May. My son has really taken off since making the switch. He went from being an average pitcher on teams to being heavily relied upon as their reliever and/or closer. It helps that he's a lefty too!

Now, I wonder what PGStaff thinks about the recruitability of a high school sidearmer with the (typical) lower velocity? I think this is what FID was originally asking as well.

Look at it this way. If a kid doesnt have the type of velocity that is going to attract attention lowering it a bit to become more effective can only help his chances. There are plenty of guys out there that fall into the category of "He just doesnt throw quite hard enough." This same guy can then become "He doesnt throw hard but man he sure could be effective for us."

Any look that is different , a look that can throw hitters off or a hitter off is an advantage for this pitcher. It can be the thing that gets him interest and an opportunity.

.
Coach May nails another one...

44
.

He's a 2011. Isn't it a little early to decide he isn't going to develop velocity and has to go sidearm? Maybe working on his fastball, location and speed, instead of his curve is what he needs to do.

.

CADad...a very valid point...

Gonna have to become a better pitcher, not thrower, the question is when and how.


.

If a Jr waits until his Spring season is over, he will be making the switch at a crucial time when he's trying to be seen(summer between Jr & Sr year). Not sure that's a good idea.

Lefty side arm , I teach pitching here in Tampa and believe that 3/4 to over the top is more effective than sidearm , but if your son is comfortable pitching this way , and the coach is willing to work with him then so be it . If you are looking to improve his velocity go to throwersten.com abnd have him start the various exercises using rubber bands . Started my son on this program when he was 12 and added 10 = 13 miles an hour . He just signed hes NLI to attend USF and is being scouted by many pro teams . Program was recomended to me by a orthopedic doctor that works with the pro teams here in Florida . Good luck to your son .

Thanks all for your input. My son has decided to give it a try in the bullpen at the beginning of the season and we'll take it from there. If as Coach May says, this could be exactly what he needs TO get noticed (and it's a good fit for him) then it is worth at least trying. Nice to know there is a place I can go when we have questions like these.

Leftymom...I sent you a PM.

Good luck to your son. And this suggestion to players is not limited to hs players. One of my sons team mates was asked to drop down. The last kid that was asked to do this at his school was drafted and doing very well in milb. Good luck to your son and let us know how it goes.

PGstaff you have a pm. Please let me know if you didnt get it.

.

Hey Tom Dorminy...your name caught my eye. I had a bad experience with some canned hominy my dad served up to us way back when I was in the second grade. There were two good things about that dinner...my rumbling reaction to hominy totally grossed out my three older brothers and I didn't have to clean any of it up! Funny how some things you never forget! I'm glad you're Dorminy and not hominy!

I read your bio and I want to wish you well. I'm glad to read of your progress following your surgery. The HSBBW is a great place for you to settle in and share your and your son's experiences!




.

Gotwood , too funny . My dad's actual given name was Dominy , but when he and mom got their marriage certificate someone mispelled the name as Dorminy , my dad liked it and the rest is history . Glad I found this site as it keeps me busy till January tryouts . Thanks for your thoughts , am doing well and whatever the docs tell me . They have let me get back to coaching so that helps alot .

.

Tremendous!

.