Taking the first strike strategy

sticks...

I totally agree with you. Most times, in HS, the first pitch is a get-me-over strike. Pitchers know that their chances of getting an out with an 0-1 count are significantly higher than a 1-0 count. If taken, the batter may have watched the most hittable pitch he'll see in the at-bat. Unless of course, as you said, the pitcher is having trouble finding the dish.

One example, last July my son was substituting with his summer teams' other 18U team. He sat for 6 innings and was told he would be 5th in line for the 7th inning (since he was there to help out). Well, we get a rally going and he gets his at-bat. Down three runs, bases loaded. And, a new pitcher just entered...

Well, put my kid on the bench for six innings and you'll see what aggressive means (if he gets a chance)....you guessed it, first pitch....walk-off grandslam!!!! For a summer game, the crowd (mostly parents, but some coaches too) all stood up and went nuts...well half the parents did anyway. It was magical. Probably a once-in-a-lifetime thing and a memory I'll keep forever.

He's typically a leadoff hitter so takes some pitches (especially in the first inning), but this time he was there to hit....and it paid off. My advice - be aggressive. Even failure from aggression is something I can live with.

Just my opinion.

Have your team be students of the game. That is what I have always preached to my teams. Watch what is going on. If the pitcher is have control issues, take some. If he is a first strike pitcher swing away. Just have them study the opposing teams pitcher(s).

Taking first strike?

Depends:

a) Type of hitter and what his role is in the batting order.
Table setters take pitches, typically.

b) I have heard it preached from the greatest, if you have never seen the guy on the bump, look at one.

c) I have also heard it said: "If he misses, make him pay."

d) Stat wise, being down 0-1, guys hit lower in average than being 0-0. 0-2 being even lower.

e) Being behind in the bottom of the fifth, and the guy on the bump is mowing, some clubs want to see 20 pitch innings with hopes to get into the bullpen.

More later

cheers

I like Bear's approach. I believe taking the first strike is situational. If you know the pitcher has control issues, it might be a good team strategy. If you know your hitters, it might be a good strategy for some of your hitters against some of the oposition pitchers with whom you have a history. If you know the umpire has a tight strike zone and the opposition pither tries to pitch on the corners, it might be good team strategy to take some pitches early in the game and force the pitcher to give in to the umpire's strike zone or suffer accordingly.

If you don't know the umpire, it might be wise for your first inning hitters to discover where the strike zone is today. If you don't know the pitcher, it might be good strategy at the beginning of his rotation to take a few pitches in order to see what he has and how he likes to pitch in certain counts. This would apply whether he is a starting pitcher or a relief pitcher and would depend on the confidence you as a coach have in the hitter.

For me personally, when I played I ALWAYS took pitches from a pitcher the first time up if I had never faced him before or had no plan on how to get on base against him until I got two strikes. But I had conficence as a two strike hitter and knew that first time I could work the count against him. Even if I struck out or got put out some other way, I usually had a plan of attack on how I was going to get on base the next time up.

TW344

Ying - Yang strategies. This is the silent excitement of Baseball. The Thrill of the Chess Match on the Diamond. It's a shame so many don't understand this thrilling utopic game. In a good game HOW CAN ONE NOT GET THEIR MONEY'S WORTH OF EXCITEMENT? There is always so much going on.

In the corporate world, Safety is concern #1 and since baseball is a corporation, let me suggest gathering data might be prudent before executing any plan. Make sure the plan fits the situation. Last I checked, there are quite a few pitchers hitting the 90 mark and I believe human bones enter an UNSAFE ZONE when encountering objects at that speed. Poor business practice allowing one pitch to end a players season should concern coaches. Having a good plan guides players in makeing safer and more successful decisions. A good plan is a SAFE PLAN supported with the latest accurate data and THAT is a lot of work for unappreciated coaches. Good safe plans should start with coaches that are supported by parents and community. Business Tools should be installed to ensure Safety is never an option....more work for a coach - sorry.

If it is "your pitch" or straight down the pipe crush it. It may be the only good pitch you see.

I like the idea of looking for a particular pitch in a particular zone until you get the first strike. If you get it, attack. If you don't, take it and then continue in the at bat.

There are batters who will have runs where they are just too aggressive or anxious. Some of them need to take a strike just to keep them from swinging at any old stuff that is slopped up there, and that can help them to recapture patience, get relaxed swings at good pitches and refind their grooves.

quote:

Originally posted by InTheMit:
Ying - Yang strategies. This is the silent excitement of Baseball. The Thrill of the Chess Match on the Diamond. It's a shame so many don't understand this thrilling utopic game. In a good game HOW CAN ONE NOT GET THEIR MONEY'S WORTH OF EXCITEMENT? There is always so much going on.

In the corporate world, Safety is concern #1 and since baseball is a corporation, let me suggest gathering data might be prudent before executing any plan. Make sure the plan fits the situation. Last I checked, there are quite a few pitchers hitting the 90 mark and I believe human bones enter an UNSAFE ZONE when encountering objects at that speed. Poor business practice allowing one pitch to end a players season should concern coaches. Having a good plan guides players in makeing safer and more successful decisions. A good plan is a SAFE PLAN supported with the latest accurate data and THAT is a lot of work for unappreciated coaches. Good safe plans should start with coaches that are supported by parents and community. Business Tools should be installed to ensure Safety is never an option....more work for a coach - sorry.

What tha'.....???

quote:

Originally posted by InTheMit:
Ying - Yang strategies. This is the silent excitement of Baseball. .....

In the corporate world, Safety is concern #1 and since baseball is a corporation, let me suggest gathering data might be prudent before executing any plan. .....A good plan is a SAFE PLAN supported with the latest accurate data and THAT is a lot of work for unappreciated coaches. ..

hmmm I've not heard of Ying-Yang (and have the suspicion you have not either).

However, just as things in life are not completely black or white, yin (black or dark, passive, downward, cold, contracting, and weak) and yang (white or bright, active, upward, hot, expanding, and strong) cannot exist without each other (according to ancient Chinese understanding of how things work).

For me, I prefer to remind myself, given the power of three, a game of baseball includes the following
'plans'
- A Strategic Plan
- A Tactical Plan
- An Operational Plan.

Should you wish to discuss a business plan as associated with the game of baseball, or maybe a Portfolio, emme.

Regards
Bear

Man I keep saying this but I have to do it again , Im with Midlo. A hitter should go up there looking for his pitch. If he gets that pitch with no strikes on him then he should hit it. Why wait until you have a strike on you to become an agressive hitter with a game plan? Hit the first pitch you get that you like. Now that may mean you take a strike now and then. But a game plan of taking a strike regardless of where it is before you start to attack strikes puts you in a hole everytime you get up. All you are doing is allowing the pitcher to constantly work ahead with no penalty for getting ahead with pitch you can mash. Thats not a good game plan imo.

I agree Coach May.
Son in a 18u tournament in SoCal 2005.
Game 0-0 in the bottom of 7th.
Both pitchers going the distance.
Son is the first batter.
Goes up there thinking,
Forget this??

First pitch Smack, 400' shot over the Right Center field fence.
With a Wood Bat.
Walk off HR.

If it looks good hit it.
EH

At the HS level the first pitch may well be the best pitch the batter will see in the at bat---if you like the pitch go for it--make something happen

Personally I don't like the strategy at all.

In my son's junior year taking the first strike cost us the chance to advance to the state finals. We were facing an outstanding pitcher that is now an ace at Florida State and he was bringing gas the entire game. The first pitch was the most hittable and our coach insisted the entire team go up there taking the first strike. Florida Baseball Guy was in the stands with a gun that day and even in the 7th inning this kid was coming in at 94. Everyone of our guys got behind in the count and all this kid would do was keep climbing the ladder once he had the first strike. It completely took our offense out of the game. We had 7 players hitting over 400 that season and this kid threw a 2 hitter.

Facing this type of pitcher we may have lost anyway but taking away an aggressive attitude from our team really put us in the hole.

It really does come down to the situation.
If the pitchers throwing first pitch strike's and bringing the heat. Hack away.
If the pitcher is not consistent, Throwing alot of Balls in the dirt.
Take a few.
EH

I want my leadoff hitter to be patient unless the first pitch is his pitch. If not work pitcher, son is very good at working pitcher 6-7-8 pitch at bats.This tends to allow rest of team to see almost all the pitches the pitcher throws. I might add son has a lifetime OB% of 475 and last season it was 597.

FIRST PITCH YOUR PITCH HIT AWAY IF NOT BE PATIENT

quote:

Originally posted by RYNO:
I want my leadoff hitter to be patient unless the first pitch is his pitch. If not work pitcher, son is very good at working pitcher 6-7-8 pitch at bats.This tends to allow rest of team to see almost all the pitches the pitcher throws. I might add son has a lifetime OB% of 475 and last season it was 597.

FIRST PITCH YOUR PITCH HIT AWAY IF NOT BE PATIENT

Lifetime OB%? OK, I have to ask. How old is your son?

jmepop, I question whether it was the coaching strategy as opposed to the first stike strategy that is in question in your post.
In my view, a coach should never introduce a new approach that late in the season, against a pitcher of that caliber, and with all 9 hitters.
Some hitters can hit with confidence when they are behind in the count, and are successful in a more than a couple of ways.
First, they drive up pitch counts.
Second, they, and all their teammates, get to see every pitch.
Finally, a good two stike hitter will work the pitcher so he is hitting a mistake, the pitch he wants.
But not all 9 guys can do it, and they especially can't do it when they haven't all season.
IMO, I think the coaching strategy is your issue, not taking a strike.

Infielddad,

I think I understand what you are saying, perhaps there are times when taking a first strike makes sense but to issue a blanket statement to the entire team that they were not to swing at a pitch until they had a strike on them was a bonehead decision. They hadn't been told that all year so this was a change in strategy. This team had a lot of talent and were capable of hitting the fast ball, but they needed to be able to go after the first one to show the pitcher they could do it. Once he was ahead in the count he didn't need to throw strikes, all he had to do was bring the high cheese.

quote:

Once he was ahead in the count he didn't need to throw strikes, all he had to do was bring the high cheese.

Thats the hitters fault.
If he's not throwing strikes why swing?
A hitter needs to develop enough to recognize the pitch, and lay off the high one's.

Plate discipline never swing at ball above elbows never. That a hitter can control since the strike zone is below elbows.

It depends on the pitch and how hard the pitcher is throwing. Some of the best pitches to hammer are balls. A hanging deuce up over the heart may be in fact a ball. But it is also a ball you can hammer out of the park. Chasing pitches out of the zone is one thing. Mashing a fb down the heart that is up a bit out of the zone is a hitters pitch. I believe in being agressive. Some balls are good pitches to mash. Some strikes are not good pitches to mash.

When you start taking pitches you take away from the hunters mentality and you start being the hunted. Hit your pitches and leave the other ones alone. Good hitters know what they like and they seek out those pitches to hit. Hanging cb's / sliders should be hammered. Fat fb's should be hammered. The fastest way to become a passive team at the plate is to have a coach making the decisions for the hitters. Leave them alone and let them hit. Trying to run up a pitch count by taking pitches is a lame way of saying "Boys I dont think you guys can hit this this guy so we are going to try to run up his pitch count and get him out of the game that way." I would rather tell my guys "When he throws a pitch you like knock the he!! out of it. And if he doesnt wait until he does then knock the he!! out of that one."

Each and every at-bat presents a different approach.

Hitters who have the ability to:

Start an atbat with a plan

Adjust that plan after pitch one

Adjust that plan each and every pitch

Have the ability to go pole to pole

Have the ability, where the opposition knows it to have power from pole to pole

Has great pitch recognition

Has the hand-eye to trust it

Has the core strength to fight off

Was born a hitter

Has put the natural ability to work

Can rely on his twitch muscles

Knows to take what is given when down

Is a polished hitter.............the rest are left guessing

Each and every at bat is the same approach. Get a good pitch to hit and hammer it.

I am sure every player and every coach has a different approach.

I dont know if it was right - or even if the kids follow it anymore - but I always told my kids that if you see a fastball down the middle of the plate - you should try to hit the **** out of it - because you may not see another one again for the rest of the game.

Just a different approach I guess.

jmepop, we are saying the same thing.
Where I have a different view from others on this arises from discussions about hitting in Milb and in MLB Spring training games.
From the way I heard it, when you get to Low A, and even more so at every level above, the pitch you think may be yours actually isn't. At those levels, pitchers have scouting reports. They know your tendency. If you are a first pitch fastball hitter, you will get what looks like a fastball, and isn't.
In Milb, hitters, other than the great ones, need to work counts so they are hitting their pitch, in their count. If they don't do that, because of the ability of pitchers combined with scouting reports, what was a fastball to hit 0-0 in college is an 0-0 change, thrown with exactly the same motion as a fastball.
If the pitcher Jmepop described tried to do that in a Milb game, he would be gone by the 2nd inning, because they would quickly see the tendency and they don't miss 94 when they know it is coming. Of course, pitchers know it too.
OS8, I think that is a very nice summary from the discussions I have had and what I have seen.
Certainly, a great hitter likely doesn't worry too much about any of this. Everyone else does.
There are several MLB organizations, with the A's and Blue Jays near the top, where from low A and above, hitters will be graded on pitch counts and the ability to command so you are hitting your pitch, not the pitchers.

quote:

Thats the hitters fault.
If he's not throwing strikes why swing?
A hitter needs to develop enough to recognize the pitch, and lay off the high one's.

I don't disagree that going after the high fastball is the hitters fault, my point is that by forcing the hitter to layoff the first strike you put the hitter in a hole. Why give the pitcher that advantage? Laying off a 92-94 fastball that is up a little in the zone can be very difficult.

Look for a fastball on your first pitch in your zone and nail it. Not to many pitchers have a high percentage low and outside pitch until you get to the pros.

Ex pitcher in the Cardinal org. said that if a pitcher did not have a high percentage low and outside pitch there was no way they would get the call up to the really big show. He said in all there prospects, farm teams and up there are about 200 pitchers, so I guess you better have good control to get up to MLB. Also I am sure they did stats to come up what pitch when and where at the pro level.

But to get back to the first pitch look for the fastball in your zone. If not lay off it, make the pitcher pitch to you and than you can start working the count to your advantage so he has to throw strikes.


You said first pitch.



respectfully yours,

drill

quote:

Look for a fastball on your first pitch in your zone and nail it. Not to many pitchers have a high percentage low and outside pitch until you get to the pros.

My opinion is that approach will get you a quick bus ride home in Milb and probably a trip to the bench in top DI programs.
I have commented before on Oregon St and what I think they have in advance scouting. Each year at Stanford, they clearly have advance scouting on every hitter.
They know tendencies and position their outfield accordingly. In some cases, they played the CF in right center, against a right handed hitter and in left center against a left handed hitter. They clearly scouted strengths and tendencies and played/pitched accordingly.
When you are hitting against top DI pitchers and in Milb, only the very best can head to the plate with one approach.
For the vast majority, one approach, without the discipline and ability to adjust to the pitcher and his scouting report, more often than not will get you released.

quote:

Originally posted by infielddad:

quote:

Look for a fastball on your first pitch in your zone and nail it. Not to many pitchers have a high percentage low and outside pitch until you get to the pros.

My opinion is that approach will get you a quick bus ride home in Milb and probably a trip to the bench in top DI programs.
I have commented before on Oregon St and what I think they have in advance scouting. Each year at Stanford, they clearly have advance scouting on every hitter.
They know tendencies and position their outfield accordingly. In some cases, they played the CF in right center, against a right handed hitter and in left center against a left handed hitter. They clearly scouted strengths and tendencies and played/pitched accordingly.
When you are hitting against top DI pitchers and in Milb, only the very best can head to the plate with one approach.
For the vast majority, one approach, without the discipline and ability to adjust to the pitcher and his scouting report, more often than not will get you released.

Thank you for your response, All I was doing is stating an opinion that I heard this morning in batting practice. This is High School ball. Coach said that not too many pitchers at this level will be able to throw the low and outside pitch or can teams keep accurate batting tendencies at this level. He did tell us a story about a pro org. and what there pitchers would have to throw on the first pitch depending on the batters.

As you know at a lower level you have low percentage of pitchers that can throw a low and outside pitch. So he was saying look for a fast ball in your zone, on the first pitch at this level and as you progress in batting skills and when you start going up to next level things change as you said.

Sorry I did not put a skill level on the post.


Respectfully yours,

drill


PS pitcher at any level have to be able to hit the spot. As you know to get to the next level the pitcher has to have a higher percentage of accuracy and speed. And even when you get to the next level you are going to have good days and bad days.

drill,
sorry for the misunderstanding. When you put the Cardinal pitcher in there, I had a different impression.
I understand what you are saying and agree about being aggressive first pitch hitters in high school, provided the player realizes it may not work at the next level.
Our son is currently working with a very talented high school junior. The young man has had great success. He won't listen to any suggestions about his approach at the plate.
His high school head coach met with the player and strongly suggested he listen if he wanted to play and succeed in college.
For a few of the truly gifted, they can do that in high school and beyond. Most can't.
I recently read an interview with Travis Snyder. He was drafted out of high school by the Blue Jays. He is now considered one of the best hitters and prospects in baseball, just two years out of high school.
He has talent at the plate!!! Coming off his bat, the ball sounds different than nearly everyone else.
Last year in low A, he started the first 6-8 weeks hitting over .350. Then his average dipped considerably.
His comments were that other pitchers/teams figured him out and he really struggled. It had never happened to him before and he got lost at the plate. With his hitting coach, they made adjustments in his plate approach and back up went his average.

Ill be honest and straight up,I dont understand why coachs make batters take the first pitch unless their is a steal or the pitcher has no control. ME,i am a first pitch batter.They are going to think you cant hit and try to impress you with a fastball across the plate belt high,so drive it. I cant tell you how many first pitch hits ive had.I remember in couple games all my hits are first pitch. You wait longer,you get in deeper trouble and less of a chance to capitalize off the pitcher. So im always up there looking for first pitch

This thread was about first strike strategy and should you be taking until you get a strike. If you are looking for a pitch to hit you will be prepared to hit if you get it. If you are not looking for a pitch to hit you will not be ready to hit one if you get it.

There will be a book on you especially at the higher levels of play. But this does not change the fact that you go up there looking for a pitch you can hit. You make adjustments throughout the ab by the way you are getting pitched. You might not be swinging at the fb on the knees on the outside corner with no strikes but you better with two.

A good hitter is not going to let the pitcher dictate to him. If all he is seeing is fb away then he is going to make the adjustment and drive the ball the other way. But why would anyone want to take good pitches to hit then have to swing at something they dont like down in the count?

This thread is a no brainer imo. You dont take pitches unless it is a very special circumstance. Taking pitches as a way of approaching ab's is little league stuff. If the first pitch is a pitch you like hit it. If not hit the first good pitch you get. If you get down in the count with two strikes expand your strike zone and drive the ball somewhere.

quote:

Originally posted by Out in the sticks:
What are your thoughts on having the team take the first strike? Have heard guys say that taking the first strike adds to the pitch count. Min. 3 batters per inning, over 5-6 innings, adds 15-18 extra pitches the kid on the bump has to throw.

I personally don't like this strategy unless the pitcher is showing control problems. I say be aggressive. If it's something fat over the plate that you like, rip it.

Sticks,

I don't have a problem with taking the first pitch of your first at bat to get a good look at the pitch, but after that, you are just wasting good pitches to swing at, IMO. But, if you have faced this Pitcher before and he throws one down the middle, Cream it!!! Nothing gets rid of a Pitcher quicker than 4 or 5 rips in a row!

quote:

Originally posted by Coach May:
This thread is a no brainer imo. You dont take pitches unless it is a very special circumstance. Taking pitches as a way of approaching ab's is little league stuff. If the first pitch is a pitch you like hit it. If not hit the first good pitch you get. If you get down in the count with two strikes expand your strike zone and drive the ball somewhere.

Coach, maybe I am not understanding you when you say taking pitches as a way of approaching ab's is "little league."
Taking pitches is part of the organizational structure of a number of MLB teams.
In our son's organization, they actually kept stats and provided players regular reports on the number of pitches seen per AB, as compared with the organizational requirements.
After every game, the hitting coaches are required to file a report on the number of pitches per AB, per hitter. The A's are particularly known for this since they look at a game over 9 innings and pitch counts on starters, combined with seeing every pitch is a significant part of their view of plate discipline.
What am I missing?

This thread reminds me of a good story. By the way, I teach: crush it or take it with less than 2 strikes so I guess I'm in the "we ain't taking" the first pitch camp.
Anyway; playoff game a few years ago and a college bound ace on the mound; he's in a little trouble and I've made a couple of moves and I have a young sophomore coming up. Their coach makes a visit and I go down to talk to my guy. I'm going to tell him to "take to one" but before I can get it out of my mouth he says: "I hope he throws me that fastball cuz I'm gonna kill it!"
I just patted him on the back and walked off. His confidence was awesome.... guess what: Fastball: 375 foot homerun (only hr that kid that year)... it was an example of where if I would have 'overcoached' i would have gotten a worse result than what the talent on the field gave me.

quote:

Originally posted by powertoallfields:

quote:

Originally posted by Out in the sticks:
What are your thoughts on having the team take the first strike? Have heard guys say that taking the first strike adds to the pitch count. Min. 3 batters per inning, over 5-6 innings, adds 15-18 extra pitches the kid on the bump has to throw.

I personally don't like this strategy unless the pitcher is showing control problems. I say be aggressive. If it's something fat over the plate that you like, rip it.

Sticks,

I don't have a problem with taking the first pitch of your first at bat to get a good look at the pitch, but after that, you are just wasting good pitches to swing at, IMO. But, if you have faced this Pitcher before and he throws one down the middle, Cream it!!! Nothing gets rid of a Pitcher quicker than 4 or 5 rips in a row!

I see a problem here though. A player should be watching the pitcher warm up, and/or watching pitch sequences to batters before him in the lineup. First at bat and you're the number 3 hole, you should have two looks at what he's throwing watching from the dugout or on deck circle.

Your not missing anything. Im talking about the thread of having the strategy of auto takes on the first strike. Hit a good pitch. Be patient and get a good pitch to hit. If the first pitch is a fb over the plate and your looking fb over the plate your probaly going to be ok. If its not and that is what you are sitting on then of course take it.

Having a startegy of taking the first strike you see will allow the pitcher to work ahead the entire game. If the A's have a policy of taking the first strike in every ab then fine. We are going to have a strategy of hitting the first good pitch we see. If we dont get a good pitch, we want to be patient until we do. But we go up there expecting to get a pitch to hit so we are ready when we do.

If we dont we walk.

Studies of this issue have proven that every strike taken by a batter reduces his batting average by 120 points for that AB.

On a scale of 1,000 ball four is zero and strike three is zero then there are five potential pitches to score positively to an AB or 600 points, 3 balls and two strikes. Each pitch is thus worth 120 points to that AB.

Take a strike, and you just reduced your AB by 120 points. In fact batters who hit with two strikes on them alot have the lowest batting averages.

LL, interesting post.
Wish our son knew of it when he played in the MWL.
As a leadoff hitter, his coaches and organization had him taking a first pitch and a first pitch strike in most AB's.
With the information from the study, he would have hit .410 that year and led the league in hitting by about 80 points.
Can I get the reference to the study? Would like to see if I can get Milb to revise his stats?