Talent and money

Lefty,

You've asked a really good and difficult question. I too sometimes worry that baseball is becoming a rich kids' sport. Private lessons, tournament fees, travel team fees, showcases down the road. It adds up quick.

I think however that if you approach this all honestly and tell folks what you can and cannot afford that you will find teams and opportunities that are willing to help out. Maybe hard to do, but there are enough "good people" out there that will help if its necessary.

I also think that you don't need to be in any gigantic rush to get where you perceive everyone else already is. Our older son (now a D1 college pitcher) didn't do this stuff really until he was in HS. And even then, we didn't jump at every invitation. He never went to a showcase until the Fall of his junior year. We tried to manage the activities to a reasonable level that fit our bank account and our son's need to do well in school and still be a kid or a teenager who also happened to like girls, basketball and fishing.

I often have these feelings of "keeping up with the Joneses," but its not entirely necessary at 14 IMO. Make sure your son has fun, doesn't get overloaded and that he focuses on getting better as a pitcher (work with him, get him some instruction if you can afford it, ask for instruction from a local JC or HS coach if you cannot) rather than zipping all over the country at the expense of a tight bank account or the rest of your family.

JMHO. Good luck!

I agree with justbaseball 100%. We also didn't really begin serious travel team, showcases, tournament until he was older.
My husband had decided to change career paths while son was in HS and had to go back to school and worked part time. Plus we knew it would be a few years before he might see results. We did what we could within our budget and got good results for college opportunities.

In the end, your son's talent will give him opportunities and open up the doors, not all of the money you think you need to spend.

Good luck!

Justbaseball and TPM give great advice. We also did not spend a fortune with my older one and were very selective with where we spent our money. If he is as good as you say, they will come see him play regardless. Find the best program for your budget. Just because you spend the money doesn't guarantee success. There are a lot of inexpensive options out there, that don't cost an arm and a leg.
My 14yo is on a prospect team this year and they are doing a fundraiser to keep the cost down. The last three years of travel have cost us about 300 per year. And the quality has been terrific. Tell him to keep working hard, talent and hard work open a lot of doors without a lot of money.

All of the top tier select teams with which I am familiar offer "scholarships" to outstanding players who cannot afford the fees.

And as others have pointed out, the most critical time is yet to come.

Key point in TG's post, "when you see college potential on the HS field, is the time to determine what the next training steps and exposure will be".

I'm having the same situation with an added catch that I am a minister. I not only can not do all the travel because of my job but can't afford it all. The thing I have found is that the opportunities are coming without all the cost. If he is as good as you say and that being in perspective, the free opps will come. Mine is 6'2" freshman lefty throwing 86 mph. The opps have come rapidly for teams that want him to play and they are willing to help cover costs.

It's somewhat ironic that this thread is right next to the "What states has your son played in?" thread! I took a look at the responses to that question and I was floored! Being a fairly working/middle class family, it would not be possible to go all those places for my son. No matter how good a player. He's almost 14. Most of our travel each summer has been within a 3 hour drive. And every summer we break the bank just so he can enjoy a couple of more months playing the game he loves. And we get to enjoy watching, which we love. But money is an issue.

Private pitching lessons? Not happening. And I admit a moment, (okay maybe longer than a moment), of anxiety when I recently found out that another freshman on the hs team, also a 3b, p is taking weeky lessons! At least my son can catch too. But then I start thinking about the teamate whose dad owns a pro shop and batting cage facility, and how he too is a catcher.

So while I agree that it isn't until they reach the hs game that parents should start plunking out the money to improve their son's chances, what about all the kids getting a leg up early? Don't they stand a better chance of making an impression early? And aren't first impressions pretty lasting?

emeraldvlly,
Don't fret before HS my son played in one other state other than the one we live in.
In HS it expanded a bit, expanded more in college, then more this year in pro ball. I don't think he cared where he played as long as he was playing (except his Omaha and Cape experiences), for us, it was a nice chance to get to see some places we wouldn't have gotten to see otherwise.

This post is about talent and money, don't let the two confuse you. JMO.

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Private pitching lessons? Not happening

Our team at 15 put together a group 4 lesson camp with a pro scout. $100 for all 4 lessons. It was more than enough to learn the basics.

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What happens to a player when his parents money is not as deep as his talent??

To save money, we eat lots of beans!
Honestly - good protein source, low fat - until you put all that cheese on them - and then you have to select the right wine...

But seriously, BHD makes a good point. We have a JUCO pitching coach who works with my son every now and then. A private lesson is $25, but if we share the hour with another player, it's only $15 each. This guy loves to work with young players and always spends much more than the allotted hour, so it's a good situation. We also have a minor leaguer who lives here in the off-season and is a great hitting instructor, more affordable than the local "expert" that everyone else goes to, and better in my son's opinion. If you look around, you might be able to find something like this. We found both of these contacts through our HS.

I do know how you feel, though. There's a coach that I really like and respect who wants my son to play for his pro scout team starting next fall, and I'm afraid to ask how much it will cost. I just shelled out $450 for this year's fall travel team, but it's a good team with good coaches and it's worth every penny! You want to do everything you can for them; sometimes it's hard to make those tough choices. You're not alone. We just have to do the best we can.

Yes, too early. As he is a pitcher it doesn't cost much to do the essential training: Long-toss, run, plyometric and core training. This is all free. Shell out just a bit for some good mechanical instruction. Find the best team you can afford and wait. At 16, send emails and to get his name out there.. this too is free.

Do a good PG showcase at 16 then a followup at 17. This part will cost money but in the end will be worth it if your kid is talented. Plus, think about fundraising some or all of the money for the showcases or the travel team. One kid in my son's travel team organization paid NO MONEY AT ALL for his team fee and related expenses. He went business-to-business and door-to-door IN BASEBALL UNIFORM and earned all the money necessary.

All good advice. Thanks!

Since son doesn't play another fall sport, we are paying for a SPARQ training program right now. (he is playing on the games-only hs team) It's all about the workout, not the testing. Son loves to work hard, but he needed a group to do it with, and specific ideas of what to do. He's enjoying sweating like a pig with 8 other guys, and trying to keep up with the "really ripped" 18 year olds. He's getting in great shape. The price wasn't bad, since it's a group. I know he will carry a lot of what he's learned from this to his own workouts.

Bum: he'll get a lot of what he needs at the hs, through plyo and weights this winter, and the informal coaching during fall and winter on-field work-outs. I guess I just have occassional mom panics, because he wants to go far, and sometimes I forget that he is a good player who will get better. And money can't necessarily buy that. Thank you for your specific suggestions.

This is a pretty random comment...and I guess I'll get shot at for it. But it seems to me I read somewhere a few years ago that medical experts do not recommend much weight training until the child's body is fairly well developed...like around 17/18.

Anyone else ever heard/read this?

They don't recommend weights too early I started at 12yo. An hour in the AM and 4 hours after school. Never knew any better but I sure was stromg and felt wonderful.

quote:

Originally posted by justbaseball:
This is a pretty random comment...and I guess I'll get shot at for it. But it seems to me I read somewhere a few years ago that medical experts do not recommend much weight training until the child's body is fairly well developed...like around 17/18.

Anyone else ever heard/read this?

I was always under the same assumption. As a pitcher we followed long toss, run, core, stretching, bands, etc. And just being active. He didn't begin actual weights until HS, about 15,16 and then it was mostly legs and light weights for upper body.
As a young pitcher, I think mine got more interest because he looked more like a wet noodle than a male physical specimen. His "upside" also helped in the draft.

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A player can not purchase skills. You're going to notice in a couple of years some of the 14U studs around your son have flamed out. Why? They were trained to death before the puberty field was leveled. Ultimately, baseball success will comes down to innate athletic ability, baseball talent, then the cultivation and refining of ability once it arrives.

You're right. However, we moms whose sons are driven will do just about anything to help them. HS coaching is not always that good, and for us, batting practice is mostly just reps in the cage with hardly any true instruction. If he's not happy with his swing and I can't spot the problem, or my arm is about to fall off from pitching BP on the weekends (dad's a swimmer - can't throw a strike to save his life) it sure is nice to have a young man who just got back his minor league season teach my son those things that the pro coaches are teaching him. Call it what you want, but $20 for an hour is well worth it to me, especially when my son comes out of it feeling better and more confident.

I agree with the other posts also - no heavy lifting until the growth plates are closed. We just started on a baseball-specific training program this summer. Strength training focused on full range of motion, flexibility, and explosiveness. He's so proud of his new quads! (They are awesome)

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My son is looking forward to the day I don't tease him about pulling a bone. After a big growth spurt he's quite slim.

We have some guys like that - if they turn sideways, you can't see them! My son has just started to get a few "man muscles." One day he looked down at his quads and said, "Whoa! I can see all four parts!" And you can. It's cool. But kind of bittersweet. Uh oh...maybe it's time to go to the pink forum....

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Originally posted by TG:

I have a son who's a physical late bloomer. His mother (a personal traininer) has developed a routine along with a sports medicine ortho specialist for him. We did the same with his older sister who was a late bloomer. She used to have the sports medicine specialist examine her twice a year including growth plate x-rays. We still have our son checked. Even though he's fourteen and entering high school, he has the growth plates of a thirteen year old.

Why do you have your children's growth plates x-rayed twice a year?

TG, a couple questions re: my 11 yr old son who pitches. Should I consider annual x-rays of the shoulder growth plate as long as he continues to be a pitcher? Would I need a orthopaedic doctor for this or should our pediatrician be able to handle assessing the x-rays?

What is the value? Is it to detect damage? Or perhaps to be able to tell when he's finished growing, thereby knowing when he's old enough to take on a bit larger pitch load or weight lifting?

Thanks.
Jon

quote:

Originally posted by willj1967:
TG, a couple questions re: my 11 yr old son who pitches. Should I consider annual x-rays of the shoulder growth plate as long as he continues to be a pitcher? Would I need a orthopaedic doctor for this or should our pediatrician be able to handle assessing the x-rays?

What is the value? Is it to detect damage? Or perhaps to be able to tell when he's finished growing, thereby knowing when he's old enough to take on a bit larger pitch load or weight lifting?

Thanks.
Jon

Just make sure that your son gets an annual exam and his pediatrician knows he pitches.
Children should not be subject to unnessary xrays unless it is necessary. JMO.
As posted in another thread, young players do not need to lift weights. My son didn't begin a weight lifting program until he entered HS at 15/16. Then it was only a light program. More core and legs than upper body. Tubing excercies for rotator cuff , being active or just tossing helps to build and strengthen muscles. Most importantly, young players should be taught good stretching techniques before they begin playing.

Thanks to both of you for your insights.

I am a bit concerned about workload. My son went to a pitching instructor when he was 8, not to learn to pitch, but to change his general throwing mechanics (he used to really throw open his front side and sling the ball 3/4 which put a lot of strain on his elbow playing catch or practicing).

In a way it's unfortunate that by seeing this instructor, he became the best pitcher on his 9u team and threw 60 innings that year. Another 60 for his 10u season and down to about 50 innings this year (we added another good pitcher which reduced his usage thank God). We're adding a couple more really good pitchers for next year and so I would expect his load will decrease a bit again which I'm happy about.

My real concern is with the tournaments. Pitchers get used on back-to-back days quite often (probably 7-8 weekends per year). What I see in my son is on the second day of back-to-back pitching days, about 50% of the time he's still really sharp with normal velocity. The other 50% of the time is velocity is noticeably down and his stamina is much shorter (and thus his pitch count limit the second day is lower). The good thing is he never threw more than 60 pitches in a day this year, and on tournament weekends he would be stopped at 40-45 if they planned to pitch him the next day.

I'm not sure if this experience is just normal tiredness or if it could lead to serious problems. So at the very least an annual Dr. checkup would be smart I think.

Thanks again for your help.
Jon

We had about 5 weeks off from the end of spring/summer season to fall ball. He's thrown maybe 4 innings in fall ball. Not too much. One inning in each of 4 games.

He looks fine and has regained his normal velocity with a low 60's fastball. Late in the spring/summer season he was topping out around 58 mph and cruising around 56 (and seemed to tire much more quickly).

Jon

quote:

Should I consider annual x-rays of the shoulder growth plate as long as he continues to be a pitcher? Would I need a orthopaedic doctor for this or should our pediatrician be able to handle assessing the x-rays?

A good sports Chiropractor can test your son to see if their are any concerns.
It is important that people get proper advice instead of relying on info on the internet.

I agree with BHD. He also posted some pretty good information from Dr. Andrews (the interview) which I think is important for parents to listen to, but I don't remember where he posted it. BHD if you can post it (the link) again, then readers can listen and draw their own conclusions.

This website is based upon opinions and information and when reading, it is always important to realize most of the information comes from parents, not necessarily professionals. Every situation is different, every young pitcher faces different challenges based upon certain factors that may or may not cause problems later on (ex. living in states where year round baseball exists). This is especially important when asking for any advice that involves medical issues.

http://www.asmi.org/asmiweb/research.htm

This is the home page of ASMI. There is an abundance of info on their site.

Yes and be sure that he stayed at a Holiday Inn last night.

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Originally posted by sluggo:
Yes and be sure that he stayed at a Holiday Inn last night.

TG, that's pretty similar to the calendar we follow for my son...

He had 5 weeks off between spring/fall ball.

He'll pitch approx. 8-10 innings in fall ball.

Fall ball ends late October, then he's off completely Nov 1 through mid-February.

He goes back to see his pitching instructor once/week starting mid-February through mid-March

Season opening tournament is in late March to start off the next spring season.

Jon

ASMI is a good guide but yes it doesn't fit all. It is a safe but not totally safe approach. Most of the guys I saw through the years were wy over their guide lines. My own son was not even close and would be in fall tryouts before his other team was even finished their season. He did get tired arm but never sore. It just was not as responsive as he liked. He always reverted to more CBs to take the load off. Yes he felt less stress on his arm with the CBs.
At 15 he was playing for 4 teams including an 18U district allstar team. He did pick and chose when he would pitch but he long tossed and warmed up in every game even in DHs where he was starting the 2nd game. If he didn't feel ready he would decline the start. That didn't happen often.
We all have anecdotal stories that prove what we believe. Up until Bantam the OBA teams had inning limits but the elite teams didn't. The one elite team would not allow him to pitch for another team except mid week.
he had gret coaches and medical care. He knew he could say no and was probably more paranoid about his arm than most.
last summer was the 1st time he didn't throw much and had a few weeks off. He enjoyed the time off but found it a little more difficult to get up to speed. We will see how it goes this spring.
I believe that people looking for a safe guide use ASMI. There is no correct guide that will 100% keep you from arm injury. You are going to excert force at some point and it could be just the right situation and you are injured. The quest to be a great pitcher will put you at risk at some point in your journey. There are very few pitchers in the pro ranks that have been totally free of injury regardless of preparation. The nature of the position requires you to go out and throw hard and fool batters. In most cases it is only a matter of time.

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I've never worried about pitching workload. I've never allowed it to happen to excess. My son was a LL pitching stud. But when all-stars came around the team needed him to catch all the time. There were other stud pitchers. The all-star teams played into August. The 80+ innings he pitched in LL and 12U travel is the largest workload he's had. This past weekend made only the second season he's topped 50 innings. He'll probably pitch another 20

remember a catcher throws as much as the pitcher. more if he catches every game. 2nd in tjs. just something to be aware of. no pitch count for the work horses.

Catchers don't always have the time to set up a throw properly like a pitcher does.

tg
i was just adding to the asmi info.when we met Dr. Andrews he had stressed that the position is an abusive one on young arms. and most youth coaches have no problem letting a catcher catch and pitch in back to back games. but wouldn't let a pitcher do the same. the elbow doesn't know what position it throws from. just food for thought.

After any age pitcher has pitched significant innings or reached his pitch count, he should never play another position in the same game. Rest and recovery begins immediately after his last pitch and the next day should be a recovery day. Often you will see outfielders come into pitch an inning or two, he is warmed up already, that is not as damaging as going from pitcher to position player in the same game.

Have seen too many pitchers leave the mound to take another position immediately or next day catch, play third or ss.

All is takes is ONE time for the pitcher to be tired and continue playing. The damage sets in.