Talking to Coach

I know that there are parents on our team that think my son is favored.  He probably is.  He's a good kid, stays out of trouble, plays hard, and works on his game.  And he's pretty talented.  But he also catches hell from the coach from time to time because he has a lot higher expectations from him.  He is supposed to be a leader and he knows that he wants to play D1 ball.  Coach has told him that many times, "I am going to come down harder on you sometimes because I know what you are capable of and what your aspirations are".   Every kid has a role, every kid has their own challenges.  Absolutely have him talk to the coach about what he needs to do and how he fits in with the overall plan.  Hopefully he will be able to help him see his role and how he can best help his team. 

CaCO3Girl posted:

phillyinNJ posted:

2forU posted:

Here is why you just say OK coach:

Situation 1, 2 outs losing 1-0, player 1 (senior captain, starting pitcher and infielder) is at the plate.  Major league pop up. Stands at home, never moves, watches the entire play until 2b catch the ball. Goes to dugout gets glove and goes to infield position.  No one says a word.

Situation 2 same game, 2 outs winning 5-1, player 2 (back up SS) is at the plate. Sky high pop up.  Runs 80% to 1b, gets to 1b before ball hits infielders glove, ball drops to the ground safe at 1st.  Steals 2b, eventually scores 6th and final run.  While running off the field, hitting coach lays into him for not running to 1b.  Player response, coach I did run, what do you mean.  Coach screaming now about talking back and not running.  HC comes over and asks player what his issue is and if he ran to 1b.  Response, Coach, I did run about 80% and I was not talking back to other coach, just discussing the play.  HC to player, you have a lot of potential and a great bat but, if you ever talk back or not run 100% to 1st, you'll never see the field again. Player 2 told to run after game by himself for 30 minutes while team has meeting and watches.  Player 2 now in dog house, has not been on field since, removed from batting line up and inter squad games.

Bad coaches demoralize players

There are some good coaches and then there are some bad ones...Having a double standard coach is one of the worse kinds there are.  Sets a bad example not only for the players, but sets the players who are receiving special treatment up for failure down the road when the standard is the same for all...

I particularly love the coach who changes a very effective swing/delivery/throwing/fielding/throw down....you know to "make it better" and then doesn't play the kid because he now can't hit the broad side of a barn/throw a strike to save his life/stop a ball/ or throw a kid out.

Just love those guys!

Saying a kid has a "very effective swing" is not looking at the big picture.  The very effective swing when?  In practice? In games against low level talent?  A coach has to try and prepare/develop a kid for future competition, and he is doing the kid zero favors by letting a horrible swing go without trying to help the kid.  Please note that this may take time, and the affected kid may have to put in a lot of extra hours to make the new swing effective.  If the kid is unable to find success with the new techniques, that is not necessarily either one of their faults.  The coach tried his best to develop the kid, and the kid may have tried his best, but he just doesn't have what it takes.

Coach_May posted:

Gofman that's a very good post. I was trying to get that point across as well but you said it better. But the fact is it's not only in HS where kids will find themselves in situations like that. And most assuredly in life as well. As you know it will come down to how you choose to deal with it. Do you become bitter? Do you get discouraged? Do you allow it to make you a failure? Do you just throw up your hands and prove them right? Do you quit? I see these situations as an opportunity. Others see them as a road block. I see them as situations that not only create character but reveal it. The truth is the life lessons learned through the game will far exceed in value any rewards the game itself will bring. If. And that if is what it's all about.

Yes I agree.  But with HS aged kids you have two perspectives.  Ours, as seen thru the lens of a grizzly "old person" with a lot of life experience.  And the kids, who are still optimistic, idealistic, hopeful and haven't been jaded by life yet.  So a kids hears what a coach says and thinks "yes, I'm almost there, I have a chance."  We look at the same statements and think "who are you crapping, coach." 

rynoattack posted:

CaCO3Girl posted:

phillyinNJ posted:

2forU posted:

Here is why you just say OK coach:

Situation 1, 2 outs losing 1-0, player 1 (senior captain, starting pitcher and infielder) is at the plate.  Major league pop up. Stands at home, never moves, watches the entire play until 2b catch the ball. Goes to dugout gets glove and goes to infield position.  No one says a word.

Situation 2 same game, 2 outs winning 5-1, player 2 (back up SS) is at the plate. Sky high pop up.  Runs 80% to 1b, gets to 1b before ball hits infielders glove, ball drops to the ground safe at 1st.  Steals 2b, eventually scores 6th and final run.  While running off the field, hitting coach lays into him for not running to 1b.  Player response, coach I did run, what do you mean.  Coach screaming now about talking back and not running.  HC comes over and asks player what his issue is and if he ran to 1b.  Response, Coach, I did run about 80% and I was not talking back to other coach, just discussing the play.  HC to player, you have a lot of potential and a great bat but, if you ever talk back or not run 100% to 1st, you'll never see the field again. Player 2 told to run after game by himself for 30 minutes while team has meeting and watches.  Player 2 now in dog house, has not been on field since, removed from batting line up and inter squad games.

Bad coaches demoralize players

There are some good coaches and then there are some bad ones...Having a double standard coach is one of the worse kinds there are.  Sets a bad example not only for the players, but sets the players who are receiving special treatment up for failure down the road when the standard is the same for all...

I particularly love the coach who changes a very effective swing/delivery/throwing/fielding/throw down....you know to "make it better" and then doesn't play the kid because he now can't hit the broad side of a barn/throw a strike to save his life/stop a ball/ or throw a kid out.

Just love those guys!

Saying a kid has a "very effective swing" is not looking at the big picture.  The very effective swing when?  In practice? In games against low level talent?  A coach has to try and prepare/develop a kid for future competition, and he is doing the kid zero favors by letting a horrible swing go without trying to help the kid.  Please note that this may take time, and the affected kid may have to put in a lot of extra hours to make the new swing effective.  If the kid is unable to find success with the new techniques, that is not necessarily either one of their faults.  The coach tried his best to develop the kid, and the kid may have tried his best, but he just doesn't have what it takes.

This all goes under the thread "can a HS coach effectively change a player's mechanics."  I would posit, given the rules we are under, the answer is a resounding no.  There is just not enough time.  We had 2 1/2 weeks of preseason and then games.  Right now, mid season, we are lucky to get 1 maybe 2 practices in a week, usually as a result of rain outs.  Most days are filled with games. 

Coaches see how their players practice and carry themselves for a couple of hours every day.  If that coach is a teacher he knows things about your kids that even you don't know.  I've had players mock the way I spoke to them, lie down in the OF during BP, or tell me they don't want to do a certain drill because they already know it. I have one kid who was the most coachable kid I've ever had in the summer and now that he's leading the league in BA and OBP he's getting cocky and fools around on drills.  There's coaches with less or higher thresholds than mine.  Point is, play time is never 100% about how well you hit, field, throw, catch or pitch.  There's many things players can do to irk a coach that talent alone won't help him recover from.  

ironhorse posted:

Hey, now. My Mom taught English for 30+ years. I typed what I meant. I found it ironic that he was attempting to insult me over a characteristic I admittedly own up to. At least in that post. We're fairly educated in Texas these days. Well, most parts. I done some learnin' on my rhetorical tools, I permise ya. 

Sorry, but calling someone a name he answers to is not ironic.

To qualify as ironic, Kevin A's remark would have needed to intentionally convey a meaning opposite to the literal meaning of the words he used (verbal irony) or else something about the exchange would have needed to create a sharp divergence between perceptions and reality (situational irony).

It's not terribly surprising for a condescending ass to own it, so it's barely even coincidental.

Check with your mom. She'll back me up on this.

Don't feel bad. "Ironic" is misused so often that I'm startled when someone actually uses it correctly.

Best wishes from the little sliver below,

bigcubbiefan posted:

My son ...is a unique dude but he was honest...not smart, but honest... 

I love this characterization. Our sons sound very similar! My son has always been candor first, "strategery" a distant second and is also a very unique dude. If a coach ever asked him that question before this year, he would definitely have spoken on the subject asked, and given a nicely analytical basis for his answer. This year, he's begun to understand how important a team first mentality is. So he's learning now how to be honest and smart at the same time. Perfect lessons for a college freshman. 

Golfman25 posted:

rynoattack posted:

CaCO3Girl posted:

phillyinNJ posted:

2forU posted:

Here is why you just say OK coach:

Situation 1, 2 outs losing 1-0, player 1 (senior captain, starting pitcher and infielder) is at the plate.  Major league pop up. Stands at home, never moves, watches the entire play until 2b catch the ball. Goes to dugout gets glove and goes to infield position.  No one says a word.

Situation 2 same game, 2 outs winning 5-1, player 2 (back up SS) is at the plate. Sky high pop up.  Runs 80% to 1b, gets to 1b before ball hits infielders glove, ball drops to the ground safe at 1st.  Steals 2b, eventually scores 6th and final run.  While running off the field, hitting coach lays into him for not running to 1b.  Player response, coach I did run, what do you mean.  Coach screaming now about talking back and not running.  HC comes over and asks player what his issue is and if he ran to 1b.  Response, Coach, I did run about 80% and I was not talking back to other coach, just discussing the play.  HC to player, you have a lot of potential and a great bat but, if you ever talk back or not run 100% to 1st, you'll never see the field again. Player 2 told to run after game by himself for 30 minutes while team has meeting and watches.  Player 2 now in dog house, has not been on field since, removed from batting line up and inter squad games.

Bad coaches demoralize players

There are some good coaches and then there are some bad ones...Having a double standard coach is one of the worse kinds there are.  Sets a bad example not only for the players, but sets the players who are receiving special treatment up for failure down the road when the standard is the same for all...

I particularly love the coach who changes a very effective swing/delivery/throwing/fielding/throw down....you know to "make it better" and then doesn't play the kid because he now can't hit the broad side of a barn/throw a strike to save his life/stop a ball/ or throw a kid out.

Just love those guys!

Saying a kid has a "very effective swing" is not looking at the big picture.  The very effective swing when?  In practice? In games against low level talent?  A coach has to try and prepare/develop a kid for future competition, and he is doing the kid zero favors by letting a horrible swing go without trying to help the kid.  Please note that this may take time, and the affected kid may have to put in a lot of extra hours to make the new swing effective.  If the kid is unable to find success with the new techniques, that is not necessarily either one of their faults.  The coach tried his best to develop the kid, and the kid may have tried his best, but he just doesn't have what it takes.

This all goes under the thread "can a HS coach effectively change a player's mechanics."  I would posit, given the rules we are under, the answer is a resounding no.  There is just not enough time.  We had 2 1/2 weeks of preseason and then games.  Right now, mid season, we are lucky to get 1 maybe 2 practices in a week, usually as a result of rain outs.  Most days are filled with games. 

In season, I would agree...

Golfman25 posted:

rynoattack posted:

CaCO3Girl posted:

phillyinNJ posted:

2forU posted:

Here is why you just say OK coach:

Situation 1, 2 outs losing 1-0, player 1 (senior captain, starting pitcher and infielder) is at the plate.  Major league pop up. Stands at home, never moves, watches the entire play until 2b catch the ball. Goes to dugout gets glove and goes to infield position.  No one says a word.

Situation 2 same game, 2 outs winning 5-1, player 2 (back up SS) is at the plate. Sky high pop up.  Runs 80% to 1b, gets to 1b before ball hits infielders glove, ball drops to the ground safe at 1st.  Steals 2b, eventually scores 6th and final run.  While running off the field, hitting coach lays into him for not running to 1b.  Player response, coach I did run, what do you mean.  Coach screaming now about talking back and not running.  HC comes over and asks player what his issue is and if he ran to 1b.  Response, Coach, I did run about 80% and I was not talking back to other coach, just discussing the play.  HC to player, you have a lot of potential and a great bat but, if you ever talk back or not run 100% to 1st, you'll never see the field again. Player 2 told to run after game by himself for 30 minutes while team has meeting and watches.  Player 2 now in dog house, has not been on field since, removed from batting line up and inter squad games.

Bad coaches demoralize players

There are some good coaches and then there are some bad ones...Having a double standard coach is one of the worse kinds there are.  Sets a bad example not only for the players, but sets the players who are receiving special treatment up for failure down the road when the standard is the same for all...

I particularly love the coach who changes a very effective swing/delivery/throwing/fielding/throw down....you know to "make it better" and then doesn't play the kid because he now can't hit the broad side of a barn/throw a strike to save his life/stop a ball/ or throw a kid out.

Just love those guys!

Saying a kid has a "very effective swing" is not looking at the big picture.  The very effective swing when?  In practice? In games against low level talent?  A coach has to try and prepare/develop a kid for future competition, and he is doing the kid zero favors by letting a horrible swing go without trying to help the kid.  Please note that this may take time, and the affected kid may have to put in a lot of extra hours to make the new swing effective.  If the kid is unable to find success with the new techniques, that is not necessarily either one of their faults.  The coach tried his best to develop the kid, and the kid may have tried his best, but he just doesn't have what it takes.

This all goes under the thread "can a HS coach effectively change a player's mechanics."  I would posit, given the rules we are under, the answer is a resounding no.  There is just not enough time.  We had 2 1/2 weeks of preseason and then games.  Right now, mid season, we are lucky to get 1 maybe 2 practices in a week, usually as a result of rain outs.  Most days are filled with games. 

Well, Golf, I know you haven't had the best experience with coaches and I'm probably wasting my breath, but I would have to strongly disagree with the "resounding no".  Granted, I don't know the details of your reference to the rules you are under.  

Ours is rather typical.  We get our first look at JV kids during winter conditioning (those not playing winter sport).  We include some cage work toward the end of at that time period.  We can often identify swings that perhaps can be successful at JV level but not at V against the better pitchers (typical issues are long first half/ casting, balance flaws, pulling off, etc.) .  We start the process of education and adjustment.  Some get it and some don't.  Some can make the adjustments and some cannot.  Some get it fairly quickly and some take a very long time.  We communicate with JV coaches what they need to continue to work on with each player to get move them toward an effective swing.   We then reinforce if we get them during summer ball after our season.  We then work some more the following winter.  If/when we get them at V, we expect some progress.  We have plenty of successes AND failures with effectively changing a player's mechanics.  We go through much of the same process with throwing motion and fielding technique.

I know most of the other HC's in the area and this is pretty much the norm.  I understand that, on the surface, time is very limited for HS programs and we fight that as well.  But if there is one thing that gets worked almost daily at least a little is the swing and hitting approach.  And, yes, as Ryno points out, sometimes a kid will have to take a step or two back before moving three steps forward.  Sometimes, he'll never get to that point of moving forward.  But, while some see this as a coach making a player worse, it is often a coach pushing the player toward the necessary adjustments and the player not willing to make them.  Regardless, when we have a kid that goes backward and then doesn't progress to his potential, I certainly feel we have failed to find the right buttons to push.

cabbagedad posted:

Golfman25 posted:

rynoattack posted:

CaCO3Girl posted:

phillyinNJ posted:

2forU posted:

Here is why you just say OK coach:

Situation 1, 2 outs losing 1-0, player 1 (senior captain, starting pitcher and infielder) is at the plate.  Major league pop up. Stands at home, never moves, watches the entire play until 2b catch the ball. Goes to dugout gets glove and goes to infield position.  No one says a word.

Situation 2 same game, 2 outs winning 5-1, player 2 (back up SS) is at the plate. Sky high pop up.  Runs 80% to 1b, gets to 1b before ball hits infielders glove, ball drops to the ground safe at 1st.  Steals 2b, eventually scores 6th and final run.  While running off the field, hitting coach lays into him for not running to 1b.  Player response, coach I did run, what do you mean.  Coach screaming now about talking back and not running.  HC comes over and asks player what his issue is and if he ran to 1b.  Response, Coach, I did run about 80% and I was not talking back to other coach, just discussing the play.  HC to player, you have a lot of potential and a great bat but, if you ever talk back or not run 100% to 1st, you'll never see the field again. Player 2 told to run after game by himself for 30 minutes while team has meeting and watches.  Player 2 now in dog house, has not been on field since, removed from batting line up and inter squad games.

Bad coaches demoralize players

There are some good coaches and then there are some bad ones...Having a double standard coach is one of the worse kinds there are.  Sets a bad example not only for the players, but sets the players who are receiving special treatment up for failure down the road when the standard is the same for all...

I particularly love the coach who changes a very effective swing/delivery/throwing/fielding/throw down....you know to "make it better" and then doesn't play the kid because he now can't hit the broad side of a barn/throw a strike to save his life/stop a ball/ or throw a kid out.

Just love those guys!

Saying a kid has a "very effective swing" is not looking at the big picture.  The very effective swing when?  In practice? In games against low level talent?  A coach has to try and prepare/develop a kid for future competition, and he is doing the kid zero favors by letting a horrible swing go without trying to help the kid.  Please note that this may take time, and the affected kid may have to put in a lot of extra hours to make the new swing effective.  If the kid is unable to find success with the new techniques, that is not necessarily either one of their faults.  The coach tried his best to develop the kid, and the kid may have tried his best, but he just doesn't have what it takes.

This all goes under the thread "can a HS coach effectively change a player's mechanics."  I would posit, given the rules we are under, the answer is a resounding no.  There is just not enough time.  We had 2 1/2 weeks of preseason and then games.  Right now, mid season, we are lucky to get 1 maybe 2 practices in a week, usually as a result of rain outs.  Most days are filled with games. 

Well, Golf, I know you haven't had the best experience with coaches and I'm probably wasting my breath, but I would have to strongly disagree with the "resounding no".  Granted, I don't know the details of your reference to the rules you are under.  

Ours is rather typical.  We get our first look at JV kids during winter conditioning (those not playing winter sport).  We include some cage work toward the end of at that time period.  We can often identify swings that perhaps can be successful at JV level but not at V against the better pitchers (typical issues are long first half/ casting, balance flaws, pulling off, etc.) .  We start the process of education and adjustment.  Some get it and some don't.  Some can make the adjustments and some cannot.  Some get it fairly quickly and some take a very long time.  We communicate with JV coaches what they need to continue to work on with each player to get move them toward an effective swing.   We then reinforce if we get them during summer ball after our season.  We then work some more the following winter.  If/when we get them at V, we expect some progress.  We have plenty of successes AND failures with effectively changing a player's mechanics.  We go through much of the same process with throwing motion and fielding technique.

I know most of the other HC's in the area and this is pretty much the norm.  I understand that, on the surface, time is very limited for HS programs and we fight that as well.  But if there is one thing that gets worked almost daily at least a little is the swing and hitting approach.  And, yes, as Ryno points out, sometimes a kid will have to take a step or two back before moving three steps forward.  Sometimes, he'll never get to that point of moving forward.  But, while some see this as a coach making a player worse, it is often a coach pushing the player toward the necessary adjustments and the player not willing to make them.  Regardless, when we have a kid that goes backward and then doesn't progress to his potential, I certainly feel we have failed to find the right buttons to push.

Here in my state there is no coaching during fall and winter work.  They have "open gyms" or "captains practice" which technically has to be made available to all students.   So the coach is basically a supervisor making sure nobody gets hurt.  They'll sit on the side and grade papers.  First time coaches can actually coach is first day of tryouts.  2.5 weeks later games start.   

 Now many programs skirt the rules by having an "independent" travel team. Those kids go to evening practice with paid coaches just like most other travel teams.  Assistant coaches can work the team. Head coach cannot.  

I think a very successful team needs not just good coaches but senior team leadership to conduct business when there "officially" can be none.

Golfman25 posted:

Coach_May posted:

Gofman that's a very good post. I was trying to get that point across as well but you said it better. But the fact is it's not only in HS where kids will find themselves in situations like that. And most assuredly in life as well. As you know it will come down to how you choose to deal with it. Do you become bitter? Do you get discouraged? Do you allow it to make you a failure? Do you just throw up your hands and prove them right? Do you quit? I see these situations as an opportunity. Others see them as a road block. I see them as situations that not only create character but reveal it. The truth is the life lessons learned through the game will far exceed in value any rewards the game itself will bring. If. And that if is what it's all about.

Yes I agree.  But with HS aged kids you have two perspectives.  Ours, as seen thru the lens of a grizzly "old person" with a lot of life experience.  And the kids, who are still optimistic, idealistic, hopeful and haven't been jaded by life yet.  So a kids hears what a coach says and thinks "yes, I'm almost there, I have a chance."  We look at the same statements and think "who are you crapping, coach." 

 

 

Ah, but I hear so many times on this board that this game, these coaches, are here to help develop these boys into men. The game teaches how to deal with adversity, etc. you have takes from people that run the gamut from "out perform your competition and you will earn playing time " (paraphrased) to "I would move my kid to a district that respects his desire to communicate with the coach" (also paraphrased). I have seen both this season on my son's team this year. There is no easy answer here.

Our high school program has a meeting prior to the season starting in which the head coach attends and talks to all families who attend. He makes the communication process abundantly evident to all who attend, frosh, JV and Varsity. Some don't attend. Players on my sons team this year, a very large roster, were seated one by one with the coach prior to the first game of the season and told what their role would be. There were kids that were told they would be coming off the bench who have become permanent starters due to their performance and the injuries of other players. There are some who have seen virtually no playing time. Some of those kids are accepting of that because they likely knew it was the going to be that way. Others aren't very supportive teammates and are not respected by their teammates.

I agree with Coach May in that there may be factors out of the players and coaches control that parents (and sometimes players) are not aware of, or maybe choose to be ignorant of. Is the kid ahead of your kid just better? Work just as hard/harder? Is there a need for your son on the roster or would they benefit from more reps on JV as opposed to riding the pine on Varsity behind that kid who is older, stronger, faster? Are the parents/player aware that the Varsity coach isn't just looking at this season, but 2-3 seasons down the road with player development? There are a ton of factors to consider with playing time. 

But not communicating that to players and even parents in a civil, non-punitive manner is not an acceptable answer.

What can you control? Do you control that which you can control? Anything else is pointless isn't it? While you are worrying and wasting energy on the things you can't control you are losing an opportunity to control what you can control. Every situation is different and every HS program is different. Can you control that? Can you choose the coach and how he coaches? Can you control what you do?

Making adjustments and dealing with adversity is not new and I understand no one is saying that. But for every HS aged player that is tinkered with there is a college player being tinkered with. Imagine being successful your entire time in this game. Very successful. So successful that college programs are vying for your services and courting you for years. You have honed your swing and approach and had immense success in the game. You are told "We want you because of what we have seen you do and what we believe you can do." And then on the first day of fall workouts your taken to the cage and told "We need to change this. We need to tinker with that. We need to change your approach. We need to try and get you to do that." And your not facing the same level of pitching day in and day out. Your facing a legit arm every single time you step in the box.

If that player is not capable of making some adjustments and still keeping his confidence, keeping his head on right, mentally tough, capable of filtering out the "I can't controls" and focusing on the "I can controls" he is toast. And I mean totally toast.

Now I can tell you this happens over and over and over again at the college level of the game. Every single level of the college game. "Yes that worked in HS but at this level" - "We don't believe your going to have long term success with that approach and swing plane lets work on this." "You won't hit the pitching we face consistently unless we ________________ . " And the fact is this isn't just hitters. Many pitchers will be tinkered with. "Arm slots" "Deliveries" "Strides" etc etc etc.

Yes some coaches can coach the stud right out of a stud. Yes some coaches can tinker a kid right to the pine. Yes some coaches end up getting in the head of a kid so much the kid simply can't play and in some cases doesn't want to play. That's where mental toughness and the ability to make adjustments and still have success comes in. In the case of a HS player how long are you going to be with this coach? Feb to May? If you are doing your work the rest of the year and you produce he will leave you alone and let you produce. If he doesn't suck it up its only 3 and 1/2 months at the most. Be mentally tough and deal with it. Overcome it. And in some cases you might just become a better player for it.

There are things you can control - control them. There are things you cant control - control the fact you can't control them. Learn how to deal with the things you can't control so you can control what you can. There are down sides to the HS coach that says "I am not going to touch that kid. He can hit." He won't get coached and he is as good as he is going to be in some cases. And there are certainly down sides to the coach that is always trying to put his stamp on a player. The bottom line is the player has to take ownership of his situation and learn to persevere and make the adjustments he has to make along the way. And there is no substitute for simply being a mentally tough player. There is one that that is for sure. At some point and time if your son is good enough you won't be in the conversation. Your son will be capable of standing on this own and winning this battle or he won't and he will fail. IMO teach him to understand there will be things he can't control. Focus on what you can and then freaking control those things. Own those things. And never allow what you can't control stop you from controlling what you can.

Coach_May posted:

What can you control? Do you control that which you can control? Anything else is pointless isn't it? While you are worrying and wasting energy on the things you can't control you are losing an opportunity to control what you can control. Every situation is different and every HS program is different. Can you control that? Can you choose the coach and how he coaches? Can you control what you do?

Making adjustments and dealing with adversity is not new and I understand no one is saying that. But for every HS aged player that is tinkered with there is a college player being tinkered with. Imagine being successful your entire time in this game. Very successful. So successful that college programs are vying for your services and courting you for years. You have honed your swing and approach and had immense success in the game. You are told "We want you because of what we have seen you do and what we believe you can do." And then on the first day of fall workouts your taken to the cage and told "We need to change this. We need to tinker with that. We need to change your approach. We need to try and get you to do that." And your not facing the same level of pitching day in and day out. Your facing a legit arm every single time you step in the box.

If that player is not capable of making some adjustments and still keeping his confidence, keeping his head on right, mentally tough, capable of filtering out the "I can't controls" and focusing on the "I can controls" he is toast. And I mean totally toast.

Now I can tell you this happens over and over and over again at the college level of the game. Every single level of the college game. "Yes that worked in HS but at this level" - "We don't believe your going to have long term success with that approach and swing plane lets work on this." "You won't hit the pitching we face consistently unless we ________________ . " And the fact is this isn't just hitters. Many pitchers will be tinkered with. "Arm slots" "Deliveries" "Strides" etc etc etc.

Yes some coaches can coach the stud right out of a stud. Yes some coaches can tinker a kid right to the pine. Yes some coaches end up getting in the head of a kid so much the kid simply can't play and in some cases doesn't want to play. That's where mental toughness and the ability to make adjustments and still have success comes in. In the case of a HS player how long are you going to be with this coach? Feb to May? If you are doing your work the rest of the year and you produce he will leave you alone and let you produce. If he doesn't suck it up its only 3 and 1/2 months at the most. Be mentally tough and deal with it. Overcome it. And in some cases you might just become a better player for it.

There are things you can control - control them. There are things you cant control - control the fact you can't control them. Learn how to deal with the things you can't control so you can control what you can. There are down sides to the HS coach that says "I am not going to touch that kid. He can hit." He won't get coached and he is as good as he is going to be in some cases. And there are certainly down sides to the coach that is always trying to put his stamp on a player. The bottom line is the player has to take ownership of his situation and learn to persevere and make the adjustments he has to make along the way. And there is no substitute for simply being a mentally tough player. There is one that that is for sure. At some point and time if your son is good enough you won't be in the conversation. Your son will be capable of standing on this own and winning this battle or he won't and he will fail. IMO teach him to understand there will be things he can't control. Focus on what you can and then freaking control those things. Own those things. And never allow what you can't control stop you from controlling what you can.

Well said, but it sounded a little bit like a Donald Rumsfeld press briefing.

Swampboy posted:

ironhorse posted:

Hey, now. My Mom taught English for 30+ years. I typed what I meant. I found it ironic that he was attempting to insult me over a characteristic I admittedly own up to. At least in that post. We're fairly educated in Texas these days. Well, most parts. I done some learnin' on my rhetorical tools, I permise ya. 

Sorry, but calling someone a name he answers to is not ironic.

To qualify as ironic, Kevin A's remark would have needed to intentionally convey a meaning opposite to the literal meaning of the words he used (verbal irony) or else something about the exchange would have needed to create a sharp divergence between perceptions and reality (situational irony).

It's not terribly surprising for a condescending ass to own it, so it's barely even coincidental.

Check with your mom. She'll back me up on this.

Don't feel bad. "Ironic" is misused so often that I'm startled when someone actually uses it correctly.

Best wishes from the little sliver below,

Sounds good to me. I don't have the energy to argue this on a baseball site.  

cabbagedad posted:

Golfman25 posted:

This all goes under the thread "can a HS coach effectively change a player's mechanics."  I would posit, given the rules we are under, the answer is a resounding no.  There is just not enough time.  We had 2 1/2 weeks of preseason and then games.  Right now, mid season, we are lucky to get 1 maybe 2 practices in a week, usually as a result of rain outs.  Most days are filled with games. 

Well, Golf, I know you haven't had the best experience with coaches and I'm probably wasting my breath, but I would have to strongly disagree with the "resounding no".  Granted, I don't know the details of your reference to the rules you are under.  

Ours is rather typical.  We get our first look at JV kids during winter conditioning (those not playing winter sport).  We include some cage work toward the end of at that time period.  We can often identify swings that perhaps can be successful at JV level but not at V against the better pitchers (typical issues are long first half/ casting, balance flaws, pulling off, etc.) .  We start the process of education and adjustment.  Some get it and some don't.  Some can make the adjustments and some cannot.  Some get it fairly quickly and some take a very long time.  We communicate with JV coaches what they need to continue to work on with each player to get move them toward an effective swing.   We then reinforce if we get them during summer ball after our season.  We then work some more the following winter.  If/when we get them at V, we expect some progress.  We have plenty of successes AND failures with effectively changing a player's mechanics.  We go through much of the same process with throwing motion and fielding technique.

I know most of the other HC's in the area and this is pretty much the norm.  I understand that, on the surface, time is very limited for HS programs and we fight that as well.  But if there is one thing that gets worked almost daily at least a little is the swing and hitting approach.  And, yes, as Ryno points out, sometimes a kid will have to take a step or two back before moving three steps forward.  Sometimes, he'll never get to that point of moving forward.  But, while some see this as a coach making a player worse, it is often a coach pushing the player toward the necessary adjustments and the player not willing to make them.  Regardless, when we have a kid that goes backward and then doesn't progress to his potential, I certainly feel we have failed to find the right buttons to push.

We're set up similar to Cabbage. Usually get a chance to film kids in the fall and we give them some drills that they can do alone we feel can help with changes we need or things we need to reinforce. Then it's up to them to get in cage work before or after school. We generally have to focus on speed and strength type of stuff in the fall class period. 

I will add this year we were fortunate to have a volunteer hitting coach. During BP he ususally got 2 kids he worked with in 45 min chunks, so most kids got repeated 1 on 1 instruction during the year, which was good.

I agree with Golfman that it is difficult for HS coaches, but if the kid buys in and is willing to spend his own time then a lot can be accomplished.

 

This all goes under the thread "can a HS coach effectively change a player's mechanics."  I would posit, given the rules we are under, the answer is a resounding no.  There is just not enough time.  We had 2 1/2 weeks of preseason and then games.  Right now, mid season, we are lucky to get 1 maybe 2 practices in a week, usually as a result of rain outs.  Most days are filled with games. 

In season, I would agree...

I would also agree.  From my experience, changing a players mechanics during the season does not work well at all.  In fact, I have witnessed it making players much worse.  The school season is very short.  In my area it can be only 6 weeks of games due to weather.  Changing someones mechanics takes time.  It can take weeks to get things right.  Sometimes the change doesn't even end up working out.  Even if it does, you often take a step back in ability before you take steps forward.  This can't be happening during games that you are trying to win.  A player needs to be able to work on any change free of the pressure and performance constraints live games bring with them.  The baseball swing or throwing motion is an extremely fast, athletic event that happens in milliseconds.  Retraining these brain to body connections should happen in the fall, winter, or preseason.  I'd take a hands off approach once the games start. Anything to do with approach is fine in season.  

Coach meets individually with each kid after season. They go over goals for next year and any changes that need to be made. Then kid works on it on his own or with private coaches during the offseason, and is expected to come in on target when practice starts. 

Iowamom23 posted:

Coach meets individually with each kid after season. They go over goals for next year and any changes that need to be made. Then kid works on it on his own or with private coaches during the offseason, and is expected to come in on target when practice starts. 

same with us.  Kids are also asked to make suggestions to the coaches, face-to-face.  Seniors handle this better than the others.

You don't coach every kid the same way. Some kids absolutely need to have their mechanics changed and the sooner the better. Some kids need some finer adjustments and those adapt as the season progresses. Some kids simply have their current mechanics reinforced. I have said it before and I will say it again. I would rather have a freshman that has never been coached than have a freshman that has been coached very well the wrong way.

Every HS baseball program is different. Some will offer any HS aged player the absolute best opportunity to be instructed, coached and developed they will ever have. Some will offer them nothing more than 20 something games and some practices a year for four years as far as development.

Every player comes into HS baseball at a different level with different experiences with a different baseball support structure. Some have been coached extremely well, have played against good competition, understand the work that needs to be put in, they understand their swing, they understand baseball terminology, they are ready to do some things others are not. Some come in raw athletic kids who have received limited coaching to none. Some come in who have been coached very well for a long time and are very good at doing things the wrong way.

I might go to the cage with one freshman and work on the finer points of hitting. I might go to the cage with one freshman and totally break him down and start building his base. There are 2 things in baseball that are hurt dramatically by poor coaching and instruction before the HS years. Throwing mechanics and hitting mechanics.

I would say to any pre hs aged player the time to prepare to be a HS player is not once you step on a hs field. It is years prior before you step on a hs field. Just like I would say to a hs player. The time to prepare to be a college level player is not once you step foot on a college campus. But it begins the moment you step on a hs field. If a player is not willing to be coached he is as good as he is going to get. If the coaching is sub par it only reinforces the need to be getting proper instruction and coaching during the 9 months your not on a hs field. 

hsbaseball101 posted:

Coaches see how their players practice and carry themselves for a couple of hours every day.  If that coach is a teacher he knows things about your kids that even you don't know.  I've had players mock the way I spoke to them, lie down in the OF during BP, or tell me they don't want to do a certain drill because they already know it. I have one kid who was the most coachable kid I've ever had in the summer and now that he's leading the league in BA and OBP he's getting cocky and fools around on drills.  There's coaches with less or higher thresholds than mine.  Point is, play time is never 100% about how well you hit, field, throw, catch or pitch.  There's many things players can do to irk a coach that talent alone won't help him recover from.  

I coached my kids from kiddie ball rec through 16u baseball and 18uG softball. My son was always the best player on his teams. I had two rules for him; 1) You can never be late because you're a coach's kid, and 2) You have to do the drills perfectly as an example and challenge to the other players. 

I rarely talked to his high school coach. He gave one compliment I really liked. He said, "Your son's idea of a verbal outburst is 'let's get some runs'. But the way he carries himself every day screams leadership."

Being talented doesn't mean it's time for a break. It means it's time to set the bar for the team. Back in 12u basketball a parent got upset with me. He said I can't expect every player to play as well as my son. I told the parent I only expect every kid to play as hard as my son. 

There's conversation in this thread about controlling what you can control and dealing with what you can't control. It's a constant theme on this board. It's a constant theme throughout life. A problem is some people can't define where the line is.

They may believe 50% is controllable and 50% is uncontrollable. Reality is circumstances may be 70% controllable and 30% uncontrollable. Within that 20% is where people get dinged not understanding it was controllable.

Golfman25 posted:

rynoattack posted:

CaCO3Girl posted:

phillyinNJ posted:

2forU posted:

Here is why you just say OK coach:

Situation 1, 2 outs losing 1-0, player 1 (senior captain, starting pitcher and infielder) is at the plate.  Major league pop up. Stands at home, never moves, watches the entire play until 2b catch the ball. Goes to dugout gets glove and goes to infield position.  No one says a word.

Situation 2 same game, 2 outs winning 5-1, player 2 (back up SS) is at the plate. Sky high pop up.  Runs 80% to 1b, gets to 1b before ball hits infielders glove, ball drops to the ground safe at 1st.  Steals 2b, eventually scores 6th and final run.  While running off the field, hitting coach lays into him for not running to 1b.  Player response, coach I did run, what do you mean.  Coach screaming now about talking back and not running.  HC comes over and asks player what his issue is and if he ran to 1b.  Response, Coach, I did run about 80% and I was not talking back to other coach, just discussing the play.  HC to player, you have a lot of potential and a great bat but, if you ever talk back or not run 100% to 1st, you'll never see the field again. Player 2 told to run after game by himself for 30 minutes while team has meeting and watches.  Player 2 now in dog house, has not been on field since, removed from batting line up and inter squad games.

Bad coaches demoralize players

There are some good coaches and then there are some bad ones...Having a double standard coach is one of the worse kinds there are.  Sets a bad example not only for the players, but sets the players who are receiving special treatment up for failure down the road when the standard is the same for all...

I particularly love the coach who changes a very effective swing/delivery/throwing/fielding/throw down....you know to "make it better" and then doesn't play the kid because he now can't hit the broad side of a barn/throw a strike to save his life/stop a ball/ or throw a kid out.

Just love those guys!

Saying a kid has a "very effective swing" is not looking at the big picture.  The very effective swing when?  In practice? In games against low level talent?  A coach has to try and prepare/develop a kid for future competition, and he is doing the kid zero favors by letting a horrible swing go without trying to help the kid.  Please note that this may take time, and the affected kid may have to put in a lot of extra hours to make the new swing effective.  If the kid is unable to find success with the new techniques, that is not necessarily either one of their faults.  The coach tried his best to develop the kid, and the kid may have tried his best, but he just doesn't have what it takes.

This all goes under the thread "can a HS coach effectively change a player's mechanics."  I would posit, given the rules we are under, the answer is a resounding no.  There is just not enough time.  We had 2 1/2 weeks of preseason and then games.  Right now, mid season, we are lucky to get 1 maybe 2 practices in a week, usually as a result of rain outs.  Most days are filled with games. 

Update on Situation 2, player 2.  Player 2 permitted back into infield / outfield practice for pre game warm up last week. Warming up pre-game,  bad hop, emergency room & broken nose - out for season. Coach appreciated his effort, squaring up, and not being afraid of the ball.

It may be a blessing in disguise. Hope your kid feels better for travel ball, good luck.

CaCO3Girl posted:

It may be a blessing in disguise. Hope your kid feels better for travel ball, good luck.

There are life lessons being taught unintentionally throughout all of this.

My son is a middle infielder playing third. He likes getting dirty In one game during his jv days he squared up a line drive, took a bad hop and broke his nose.  Bloody mess. Took him to the er patched up his nose. He was back playing 4 days later.  He never cried or complained about it.  He knows these things will happen and accepts it as part of the game.  He's fearless, exactly how I taught him to be.  He'll be graduating hs in couple weeks and off to college to play more baseball.  As some suggested here control what we can control.  

Best to your son.   

I did what most people say not to do....when my son was a junior in HS> Some background-as a soph he started about 1/2 the games at 2B and DH'd a couple times. After the season coach told him he needed to work on hitting. That summer he lead his summer team, batting around .400. He went to Ball State hitting camp. He played in a competitive fall league hitting over .300. Started first game of the season. Went out when he got HBP. Said he was fine and didn't want to come out. Didn't play again for 3 games. It went that way for 1/2 the season. A Freshman got his playing time. Freshman went on to hold the record for strike outs in a season leading off. My son did the unthinkable and blew up at the coach in the dugout. Coach told him he was a bad teammate only thinking of himself. I knew that wasn't true so we went and talked to the coach. He did get more playing time.....and played pretty much all the time his senior year. Made 1st team all conference. Batted .412-leading the team. Still makes me mad that coach let his favoritism take most of his junior year away from him...but it is what it is.

Florida State Fan posted:

My son is a middle infielder playing third. He likes getting dirty In one game during his jv days he squared up a line drive, took a bad hop and broke his nose.  Bloody mess. Took him to the er patched up his nose. He was back playing 4 days later.  He never cried or complained about it.  He knows these things will happen and accepts it as part of the game.  He's fearless, exactly how I taught him to be.  He'll be graduating hs in couple weeks and off to college to play more baseball.  As some suggested here control what we can control.  

Best to your son.   

I think your kid is a lot like mine!   Took a baseball bat over the left eye when a kid swung outside a cage in the gym.  3 internal stitches and 4 external.  Back at it 3 days later!  Fractured orbital bone, still played regionals (did NOT now it was fractured till after.  Urgent care cleared him and missed fx). Broken bone in foot....broken thumb....         He hates being out but he doesn't let it stop him!