PG, playbaseball...
Thanks for the nice remarks. Experience is valuable and even though I am as dense as the next guy, watching the process unfold for about 16 years has been a very valuable experience especially if you watch more than your own kid. I've had the pleasure of watching some real blue-chippers over the years and watching how things unfolded for them was very enlightening. I'm sure that a kid who wants to "make it" in baseball is going to overcome a lot more than not making Team Illinois.
Now if I only had another kid, I could apply whatever wisdom I have gained!
"Now if I only had another kid, I could apply whatever wisdom I have gained!"
Get to work Fastballdad, you can do it!
Get to work Fastballdad, you can do it!
quote:At some point you have to hope a kid is playing for some other reason than to promote himself. There is something to be said for the kid who may choose to stay with his local HS Summer Team or Legion Team just to play with his teammates or for his town.
Fastball Dad you da man, however my greatest concern is with adults who can speculate (but not answer when questioned)at best that team selection is solely political. There were players this past weekend that were selected on their own merit.
playball, I assume you are referring to me. I went back and checked my post as I do not recall saying the team selection is soley political. If you read my first post that way I didn't mean it that way as I do realize that many of the players are picked on merit. I meant that the process seemed political and again that should not suprise me with teams or any other selection process. In fact I know many of the players and they are fine players. If you feel they were all selected on merit that is your opninion, great, I just disagree with you. If you are asking me to list names of players I will not do that and quite honestly it just is not that important. If you felt the games, competition and teams were great so be it, I guess we will disagree.
Lineshot, I don't know you and I am not looking to pass judgement on you but this is the second post that you inquired about the selection process (AFLAC All-America)of a highly regarded team. I have or will not ask you to name athletes that you felt should not have represented team Illinois, because the tone of your posts makes it safe to assume that you felt particular athletes were left out, and even safer to assume that one of them is very close to you. I did however ask you to define what you meant by political? (A question you still have not answered) I also did not say that the games themselves were great, I stated that were some impressive things happening out there and that your comments were selling the athletes efforts short.
This is an interesting topic to me. Growing up in Michigan we never had the summer school ball so it was always just legion or connie mack. But Illinois has a different way of doing it with playing for your high school team in the summer and now with travel organizations running, it does place a lot of kids in tough situations.
Tell me what you guys think about this:
I think is important to play baseball as much as possible, to the point where it does not become hurtful or place a kid at risk of injury. Both, High school and Travel ball have their pros and cons, but both are here to serve the kid, if they are doing it right. Why can't travel teams and high school coaches get together and create a mutual schedule for the players (especially the pitchers) that creates a system of development throughout the summer?
As a college coach the last two years, it was tough to evaluate illinois kids in the late summer early fall, because they looked like they were dragged behind a car. Trying to play all those games and not doing the physical training that needs to be done to keep them in shape enough to do it, hurts a lot of kids.
Just some ideas I have thought about. I am new to this whole idea and hope that no one is taking this the wrong way. I see positive and negative things from both sides. unfortunately, the only people who get hurt from the negative, is the kids.
What do you think about the cooperative avenue or am I being naive?
Tell me what you guys think about this:
I think is important to play baseball as much as possible, to the point where it does not become hurtful or place a kid at risk of injury. Both, High school and Travel ball have their pros and cons, but both are here to serve the kid, if they are doing it right. Why can't travel teams and high school coaches get together and create a mutual schedule for the players (especially the pitchers) that creates a system of development throughout the summer?
As a college coach the last two years, it was tough to evaluate illinois kids in the late summer early fall, because they looked like they were dragged behind a car. Trying to play all those games and not doing the physical training that needs to be done to keep them in shape enough to do it, hurts a lot of kids.
Just some ideas I have thought about. I am new to this whole idea and hope that no one is taking this the wrong way. I see positive and negative things from both sides. unfortunately, the only people who get hurt from the negative, is the kids.
What do you think about the cooperative avenue or am I being naive?
Coach Steeley that is a great idea that many people share but sadly there are too many egos involved.
[quote]lineshot
Member
Posted August 08, 2007 02:49 PM Hide Post
The whole team illinois seemed a little on the political side. JMO None of the teams looked very strong.
I went back and checked my post as I do not recall saying the team selection is soley political.
Might want to recheck your posts
Member
Posted August 08, 2007 02:49 PM Hide Post
The whole team illinois seemed a little on the political side. JMO None of the teams looked very strong.
I went back and checked my post as I do not recall saying the team selection is soley political.
Might want to recheck your posts
Steely, great idea, however two different mindsets, for the summer high school coach the season is about development (a new pitch, a new style of play, mechanical tweek, etc.) for the travel team coach it is about winning, showcasing and exposure, there is a belief that the higher level player is a finished product. When you recruited for MSU did you go to a summer tournament to watch a young man work on his stuff?
MMR while I do believe it is partially about ego's I am not convinced it is the head coaches of the two programs more than it is the parent(s) of the player involved.
playball, like I said in my last post I didn't mean the first post that you just quoted the way you read it and again I do not think the entire team was political and if it came out that way sorry. Once again I do know many of the players on that team. No the players that were left off are not as close to me as you think, but it sure sounds like you know everything. As far as none of the teams looked that good, yes that is my opninion, that does not mean there wasn't good things happening on the teams, it means overall in my opinion the competition did not look that good. Is that okay with you or do we have to check with you first?
By the way you never answered my question concerning one of your players in the area codes last year, once again you didn't feel politics played a part there? Try not to skirt the question this time.
By the way you never answered my question concerning one of your players in the area codes last year, once again you didn't feel politics played a part there? Try not to skirt the question this time.
Playball2,
IF the kid
He doesn't. My comments regarding FBD's post concerns the exposure promised by certain travel ball teams and the high school team. My experience with all of this is exactly what FastballDad writes.
Again, FastballDad, YOU GET IT! I agree with all that you say...especially that one "has to hope a kid is playing for some other reason than to promote himself." If that is solely the reason, and not exposure, then the high school or legion or Babe Ruth team would do the trick, for a lot less money and a lot less time and aggravation.
This is worth repeating. Again.
.
IF the kid
quote:is good enough to play "BIG TIME TRAVEL BALL" then that is what he should play, however if he is getting the "EXPOSURE" and the "PROMOTION" that the travel ball organization offers, why would he need selection to TEAM ILLINOIS?
He doesn't. My comments regarding FBD's post concerns the exposure promised by certain travel ball teams and the high school team. My experience with all of this is exactly what FastballDad writes.
quote:Originally posted by FastballDad:
In others, there is conflict between Travel and The HS or Local Team. Believe it or not there are HS Coaches who hold the kid's HS future over their head to leverage them into playing for them.
As far as Team Illinois goes, it is just one of many venues for a kid to be seen and like you say if he is good enough and has had exposure and promotion by his Travel Team it may be asked why he would need that particular honor. Of course that is presuming the travel team did in fact get all the exposure and really promoted him like they say they can. My son played on an exposure team or two and there was no one watching the majority of the games they played except the parents. Not as much exposure as promised.
At some point you have to hope a kid is playing for some other reason than to promote himself. There is something to be said for the kid who may choose to stay with his local HS Summer Team or Legion Team just to play with his teammates or for his town.
It is unfortunate for some kids who may be as good or better than some of those who are selected if the reason why was because any of his coaches wouldn't even say a good word for him.
Again, FastballDad, YOU GET IT! I agree with all that you say...especially that one "has to hope a kid is playing for some other reason than to promote himself." If that is solely the reason, and not exposure, then the high school or legion or Babe Ruth team would do the trick, for a lot less money and a lot less time and aggravation.
This is worth repeating. Again.
Especially the travel team coaches who tout that they are an exposure team. If exposure was only appropriate for certain kids on the team, then they should adjust the team fees accordingly. Some are outrageously high. Not sure why....quote:It is unfortunate for some kids who may be as good or better than some of those who are selected if the reason why was because any of his coaches wouldn't even say a good word for him.
.
playball you have a pm.
quote:Lineshot, to my knowledge 9 players were on the team from the stevenson showcase. As far as the Area Code Team that selection process was left to the White Sox, so I have no answer for you there, however if you look at my previous post you will see that I mentioned early the role that politics plays in the selection process.
Is this what you are referring to as not answering your question? You will notice that I didn't make a broad base assumption on the whole area code selection process, because I am not sure as to what the selection process is. No skirting there. Plus for the first time in the history of the games the midwest team won the tournament. The selection process could not have been that far off. My player was/is a great player, but I am not going to make assumptions for the sake of making assumptions. The reality is that you made a statement that was uninformed and again it seems that you are the only one that has failed to answer the question, since I coached the team, I think I could have answered any and all concerns regarding the selection of the players. So this is not about me knowing everything, this is about getting the right information before you continue to make more uninformed comments. Lastly, your opinion is your opinion have at it, however if you continue to make blanket statements about the event(s) that I have or will be directly involved with, expect those statements to be challenged, not you, but rather your statements.
MMR-
You may be right about the egos but many of these coaches are focused on the TEAM (high school), and not just the best individuals players and their development & exposure. I see their point.
I do not see a whole lot of college guys at summer games & the competition is very spotty at best. If a player resists playing for the hummer high school team, the other kids are going to develop resentment and that is not good either. It is a double edged sword and I do not see it changing either - that may be the ego part of it.
It is toughest on pitchers as Steeley noted. Having observed this once, we won't do the same thing with #2 kid as we did with #1.
You may be right about the egos but many of these coaches are focused on the TEAM (high school), and not just the best individuals players and their development & exposure. I see their point.
I do not see a whole lot of college guys at summer games & the competition is very spotty at best. If a player resists playing for the hummer high school team, the other kids are going to develop resentment and that is not good either. It is a double edged sword and I do not see it changing either - that may be the ego part of it.
It is toughest on pitchers as Steeley noted. Having observed this once, we won't do the same thing with #2 kid as we did with #1.
Play baseball he doesn't what? I sense your trying to get the best of both worlds? How is that fair to the HS coach?
[B]At some point you have to hope a kid is playing for some other reason than to promote himself.[/B
While I agree with this statement whole heartedly it is certain that the MO of athletes has changed with the promise of exposure
[B]At some point you have to hope a kid is playing for some other reason than to promote himself.[/B
While I agree with this statement whole heartedly it is certain that the MO of athletes has changed with the promise of exposure
I will try to make this my last comment on the subject. I find it funny that you are standing up for the "process" when none of your msl players made that team and I do not think they made the keiser game. Where you involved with the selection process or just coaching the games? Whom has more pull you or Jim Hall in that selection process? If you mentioned that the area code team last year was 5 and 0 so the process was correct then should I assume at 3-e for the team illinois the process was incorrect? Last but not least are you okay with the selection process?
lineshot, are you ok with the selection process for the hurricanes next year? or will you be out of money?
quote:Originally posted by Playball2:
Play baseball he doesn't what?
Need to be selected to Team Illinois.
At some point you have to hope a kid is playing for some other reason than to promote himself.
While I agree with this statement whole heartedly it is certain that the MO of athletes has changed with the promise of exposure
Agreed. One of the primary purposes of select travel teams is to gain exposure. So, if a kid wasn't in it for the exposure, then there would be less of a reason to play on these travel teams. In fact, some travel teams refer to themselves as "select EXPOSURE teams". If exposure was not part of the experience on this type of team, then it is a misnomer. And since exposure is one of the main reasons for spending thousands of dollars, not only for team fees but for travel expenses to the exposure tournaments, then the coaches should expose everyone on the team in a fair manner. Or refund some of the money. Sadly, my sons have been to a number of exposure tournaments where not all kids were selected by the "exposure travel team coach" to play in any of the games FOR EXPOSURE. They may not be top D1 prospects, or pro prospects, but it is my understanding that there are many types of colleges represented at the college exposure tournaments. In fact, a few years ago, at some tournaments in Chicagoland, there were only D3 schools represented. And these kids and their parents made the trip and paid money to stay in hotels for the purpose of participating in the exposure tournaments, only to watch their kid sitting the bench. I would imagine that is not a lot of fun.
So my point is if the team/coach promises "exposure", then the team/coach should deliver that exposure. And then let the kid's talent/actions take over from there. But don't make promises that won't or can't be kept.
quote:Whom has more pull you or Jim Hall in that selection process?
This wasn't about pull, I made suggestions to Coach Hall about particular athletes from the Northwest suburbs, not just the MSL, the fact that I didn't have a player there suggests that I had no other interests but to coach some of the states better players. The suggestions I made were immediately (the monday) after the Stevenson showcase. Plus for the first time in the history of the games the midwest team won the tournament. The selection process could not have been that far off.Lastly, you can see that I did not refer to the process as being correct. Please quit attempting to attack me personally, your perseverence is compelling but hardly admirable.
baseballmom8, if he loves the game, why is he concerned about the exposure?
Playball,
You can't have both
quote:At some point you have to hope a kid is playing for some other reason than to promote himself.
You can't have both
fungo you have a pm
fungo I have no idea who you are or what you are referring.
Maam, your son is 6'5, he is 200 plus pounds, left handed and throws the ball 90 plus mph, he didn't need to fly to cincinnati for exposure, or to become a big leaguer, all of that could have happened right here.
fungo, I do appreciate you being concerned with my money, thank you. My wife watches it pretty closely however!
I usually don't chime in on these things but some of these posts blow my mind. If a kid loves the game and wants exposure to go along with it so be it. You can have both. Maybe he wanted to see how he stacked against the best players in the country. You don't know how good you are until you face the best competition. Why would a kid like that want to stay around and destroy inferior competition. Will that make him a better player? Is that going to help him achieve his dream? Maybe it made him or several other kids realize how hard they are going to have to work to get to the next level. I have been around tons of kids who love the game and want and need to be seen. I'm talking from kids that throw 97 to those who are throwing 82 or ones that are running 6.4 along to 7.7 60's. We have had kids who love the game and need also the exposure to continue playing after high school. Is that a bad trait or something? It is the frivolous comments that are made from so called baseball people that is really getting sickening from this board all the way to some of the people I hear at games.
Baseballmom08, your story is strikingly familiar to a young man who pitches in our conference, I apologized if it was a mistaken identity, however again I believe if you are good, they will find you no matter what efforts your coaches have put in.
SI there is nothing frivolous about the comments made. Tell me what exactly are you exposing a 7.7 kid who throws 82 too. Which is exactly my point, the exposure is no longer for the elite, it is no longer exclusive. I am not here to crush anyone's dream but the reality is that PG is not posting 7.7 60 guys that are topping at 82. I am all for hard work and getting to the next level, trust me not many in my area work as hard as I do for my kids who want to play. It's not a bad thing to want to continue to play, it's a bad thing to be bilked out of money, when you are the furthest thing from a prospect.
SI there is nothing frivolous about the comments made. Tell me what exactly are you exposing a 7.7 kid who throws 82 too. Which is exactly my point, the exposure is no longer for the elite, it is no longer exclusive. I am not here to crush anyone's dream but the reality is that PG is not posting 7.7 60 guys that are topping at 82. I am all for hard work and getting to the next level, trust me not many in my area work as hard as I do for my kids who want to play. It's not a bad thing to want to continue to play, it's a bad thing to be bilked out of money, when you are the furthest thing from a prospect.
Cleveland no low blows intended here and know buddy asked her to justify her reasons. I simply stated that loving the game is enough. If baseballmom08 son is talented and he has been invited to alot so I am assuming he is they will find him.
playball, the frivolous comments are coming from everywhere. The 7.7 and 82mph are two different kids. The fact is just because they arent a 10 on PG rating doesnt mean that they waisted their money playing for us since they got scholarships that far outweigh our cost. I guess we should have let them stay on a legion team and not be seen at all. All the while losing the chance to continue their baseball careers and get some of their education paid for also. That is what we are exposing and that is my point.
Again SI if you are good they will find you. Our situations may be a little different however because of High School Summer season. There is a greater emphasis on the northern half of the state.
BM08 sorry I missed the opportunity to watch Kyle pitch, hopefully I will see him at the pitch and hit showcase.
Hey SI I was looking for the 80 mph club on your website, could you help me navigate to it? Just kidding
I am well versed in the if you are good they will find you statement. It is a little different in our area as well. One guy may find you, but I would like for there to be several to find them so the kids can have more options. They can find several in the Chicagoland. The fact is in our area if a kid wants to be seen in the same venue as those kids we have to travel. The 90mph club started out as a joke with some of our kids then they insisted we put it on the website so I did. I prefer the college signees section myself.
It's a slippery slope, as far as how to handle an athlete heading into his Senior year as far as exposure. As far as the moral aspect of it, I see nothing wrong with wanting the best and if that equates to doing as many showcases/travel ball as poss. even at the expense of Summer HS ball as to get further exposure in front of colleges and pro scouts, it should be done.
But if that same player (espec. pitchers) have played since mid March gone thru a long HS Spring season into Summer w/travel ball and showcases, there's a wall they will hit as far as fatigue. That fatigue and drop in the quality of play will do more harm than good from the heavy workload. It is up to the coaches, parents, and kids themselves to put that player's long-term health as a priority.
As far as national showcases vs. local showcases. Events like the PG Cincy event, Cobb, etc. are more national events, they're geared for the elite prospects. You have to be content with how your son is gaining attention locally, too. I have a great deal of respect wthe national events, but make sure your son is getting local exposure as well.
But if that same player (espec. pitchers) have played since mid March gone thru a long HS Spring season into Summer w/travel ball and showcases, there's a wall they will hit as far as fatigue. That fatigue and drop in the quality of play will do more harm than good from the heavy workload. It is up to the coaches, parents, and kids themselves to put that player's long-term health as a priority.
As far as national showcases vs. local showcases. Events like the PG Cincy event, Cobb, etc. are more national events, they're geared for the elite prospects. You have to be content with how your son is gaining attention locally, too. I have a great deal of respect wthe national events, but make sure your son is getting local exposure as well.
UK, I appreciate your response and think your dead on with one exception, I believe you should be drawing local attention before you seek national attention.
Playball2,
Earlier in this thread you mentioned you are changing some of the things about your program. I'm always impressed with people who are willing to take a chance and change the way they do things, but it's even more impressive when someone who has been successful is willing to do it to improve.
I'd like to hear more about what you are doing.
Earlier in this thread you mentioned you are changing some of the things about your program. I'm always impressed with people who are willing to take a chance and change the way they do things, but it's even more impressive when someone who has been successful is willing to do it to improve.
I'd like to hear more about what you are doing.
FBDad, Gone are the Treutler, Biela Devero's of our past. So for the past two years I really have studied a an offensive that puts a higher emphasis on the "little" things, we will be very fast over the course of the next two years, our goal will be to get as many players to 3rd base with one out or less as much as possible. However the trick is not to settle for one run. It took about 20 games this summer to put it in, but when we executed it, it was pretty special. It is truly baseball against the book, completely unconventional.
Playball
Sounds like you will be fun to watch. I really like to see teams and coaches who aren't afraid to go against "conventional wisdom." Too many coaches are afraid to have the second-guessers all over them. It's easy to say "I was just going by the book."
Sounds like you will be fun to watch. I really like to see teams and coaches who aren't afraid to go against "conventional wisdom." Too many coaches are afraid to have the second-guessers all over them. It's easy to say "I was just going by the book."
quote:Originally posted by Playball2:
UK, I appreciate your response and think your dead on with one exception, I believe you should be drawing local attention before you seek national attention.
It's easier to gain attention locally obviously. Most of the kids that attend National events have been on varsity a minimum of 2 years, played travel ball, attended local showcases,and from some publications like PBR.
In general, you're right though as far as catching the eye local colleges and scouts.
While there should never be a complaint of lack of talent for any level around here (pro to JUCO), most of the top kids will end up attending local colleges/universities on a baseball scholly, which should not be forgotten in the grand scheme of things as far as promoting local kids.