Team stats

2016Dad- Impressive layout and statistical analysis, especially for 14u. However, I don't know if anyone here can answer your question based on solely looking at a team's statistics. There are many more variables that are involved in successful coaching decisions than just the numbers.

Take, for example, the Tampa Bay Rays. They are clearly big advocates of sabermetrics based on their salary level and emphasis on specified talents in certain players. Joe Maddon is considered one of, if not the best manager in the Major Leagues not because of the heavy statistical analysis that both he, his coaching staff and the front office take part in, but because of the managerial decisions he makes on a nightly basis. It is recognized that while statistics are important, scouting and coaching is largely a relevant tool at the professional level as well, and can't be overlooked.

Another issue I could see in using a strictly statistical analysis to answer your question is the issue of a small sample size. Player D led your team with 74 PAs...well Albert Pujols has 140 PAs so far this spring and he's still hitting third everyday for the Angels despite his shockingly abysmal performance. I realize this comparison is certainly a stretch, but I'm just trying to provide an example of why a small sample size such as the one illustrated cannot be a true indication of overall talent and success.

As I said, your statistical analysis is impressive and can be used as a tool. However, its impossible to make a lineup just off that.

Just as an anecdotal note, batting average is a vastly overrated offensive stat. OPS (on-base plus slugging) is a much better indicator of a player's production in the same respect.

Thanks JH - I didn't have to do much to get these stats. GameChanger (the iPhone/iPad app) spits these out with ease. It's almost comical you can gather this much detail for a 14U team. Just thought it would be a fun exercise to see what you guys who understand the relationships between these number better might glean from it. Yes, sample size is small and seeing these players play would add an important dimension to these stats.

2016Dad- Do you know what the qualifications are for "Quality At-Bat" according to Gamechanger? I find it odd that the team OBP would be that much more significantly higher than a QAB%.

The problem with stats in a short season is they are stats in small numbers with a very high error factor. While the percentages are accurate they may not reflect how well the hitter is swinging the bat. One 3-3 or 0-3 game dramatically affects the batting average. With 75 at bats each hit is worth 15 points. A kid with five laser shots at fielders is swinging the bat better than the kid who's been lucky enough have five duck snorts drop. Yet their batting averages may differ by 100 or more points in favor of the duck snort hitter. After 100 at bats this stuff starts to balance. After 200 at bats you get a strong reflection from stats of how a hitter is actually performing.

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Originally posted by RJM:
The problem with stats in a short season is they are stats in small numbers with a very high error factor. While the percentages are accurate they may not reflect how well the hitter is swinging the bat. One 3-3 or 0-3 game dramatically affects the batting average. With 75 at bats each hit is worth 15 points. A kid with five laser shots at fielders is swinging the bat better than the kid who's been lucky enough have five duck snorts drop. Yet their batting averages may differ by 100 or more points in favor of the duck snort hitter. After 100 at bats this stuff starts to balance. After 200 at bats you get a strong reflection from stats of how a hitter is actually performing.

Agree 100% with this...

RJM, totally agree. My son plays for the coach who looks at stats for hours and thinks he is reviewing the game. In fact, he doesn't seem to realize a scalding line drive out is way better the the blooper that drops between three fielders. It's crazy to rely on stats alone, they only tell part of the story.

Thanks guys. I have a better perspective on these stats now and their worth (or worthlessness). Just read the related HS Stats thread too.

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Originally posted by RJM:
After 100 at bats this stuff starts to balance. After 200 at bats you get a strong reflection from stats of how a hitter is actually performing.

Well put RJM.

Have you done any pitching stats?

If statistics really interest you, you could look into cool stats like xFIP, and WAR.

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Originally posted by calisportsfan:
RJM, totally agree. My son plays for the coach who looks at stats for hours and thinks he is reviewing the game. In fact, he doesn't seem to realize a scalding line drive out is way better the the blooper that drops between three fielders. It's crazy to rely on stats alone, they only tell part of the story.

Crash Davis quote had the best quote on this. One bloop, Texas Leaguer or gork per week that falls is the difference between a Hall of Famer and a .250 hitter.

Hitting them where they ain't is as much a part of being a good hitter as squaring it up. That's why hitters work on taking it back up the middle or the other way in certain situations. The value of stats in 25-30 game samples like HS or 50-60 games like college probably has limited value. But after 150-200 games they do start to tell you something about how a player is matching up against the level of the league he's in.

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Originally posted by J H:
Do you know what the qualifications are for "Quality At-Bat" according to Gamechanger? I find it odd that the team OBP would be that much more significantly higher than a QAB%.

Gamechanger QAB =
[(2-strike at-bats ≥ 3 pitches seen) + (at-bats ≥ 6 pitches seen) + (hard hit balls) + (2-out RBI’s) + (sac bunt) + (sac fly)]

divide that by plate appearances for QAB %

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Originally posted by 2016Dad:
My son's 14U "prep team" just finished their season here in Southern CA. I kept stats using Game Changer for my own edutainment. I don't know baseball very well, never played myself. I've read BA or OPS is a good general stat for hitters. Agree? I'm curious what you guys think of this team hitting wise? How would you order the line-up? Any player or stat stand out? For example, I'm surprised 2 players share over half the HBPs.

OF BA, OBP, SlgP, and OPS, I’d say OPS was the best general indicator and BA by far the worst. The reason is pretty simple. BA takes into account the fewest items, OPS the most.

As far as hitting-wise, its really impossible to say. The reason is, in order to get any kind of feeling for it, you’d have to compare this team to all the others in its league/category or whatever. When I see “PREP” as a team descriptor, I’m thinking a HS team, and when 14U is added to the description, I’m thinking Fr HS teams. For a HS Fr team, they look better than some, not as good as others.

Its really a difficult thing to do because not a lot of teams at that level have stats at that depth. I have Fr numbers, but only for 6 games, and they’d be from the 2000 season. That’s how long it took my son to get promoted, and of course I moved to the JV team with him. But things are getting better with the growth in popularity of things like GameChanger and IScore. I have a friend who’s a coach down there and uses IScore. I’ll ask him what he thinks of your team.

Ordering a lineup is a very difficult thing to do with nothing but numbers, but it shouldn’t be too difficult get a general idea about what player’s would be the better choices for certain batting positions. The trouble is, there’s no set parameters for any specific batting position. I.e., what are your criteria for a leadoff hitter? I’ll bet you they aren’t the same as mine, and mine won’t be the same as someone else’s. And how would I use numbers to get the answer? Richard Todd over at Webball ran a series of articles on creating lineups last year. They may still be up there.

Something that jumps out at me, is that I’m guessing I’d be a big fan of player A. I like aggressive hitters, and he and player K pretty much show why I don’t get too excited about QAB’s, at least the way GC defines them.

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Originally posted by calisportsfan:
RJM, totally agree. My son plays for the coach who looks at stats for hours and thinks he is reviewing the game. In fact, he doesn't seem to realize a scalding line drive out is way better the the blooper that drops between three fielders. It's crazy to rely on stats alone, they only tell part of the story.

How is the scalding line drive better than the blooper? You gotta be careful about what you’re looking for. If I’m interested in finding out how the team won the game, I’d say the blooper that drove in 2 runs, kept the inning alive, and eventually scored, was way better than the scorched liner that doubled off a runner with the bases loaded and only 1 out.

Everything depends on perspective. Now if you’re interested in who’s hitting the ball better, it may be that the kid hitting the hard liner is performing better. But like it or not, bloops and duck farts are part of the game too.

Yes, its just about as crazy to rely on stats alone, as it is to not give them any consideration at all. Extremism in either direction is foolish.

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Originally posted by Pferdestarke:
Have you done any pitching stats?

If statistics really interest you, you could look into cool stats like xFIP, and WAR.

Yup, those stats are really cool. Do you know a way to get them without having BPFs?

Stats4gnats....which do you think a college coach out to see a prospect would consider better, the hard hit line drive and ability to square up the ball or a bloop? Just saying....

Also, I keep Game Changer stats so it's not like I don't enjoy the process it's simply I am of the belief they are only a small part of the picture and as has been mentioned, a 30 game sample is minimal and only as good as the Dad or Mom keeping them

In high school baseball and even club ball to a certain degree, people see what they want to see. In college or professional ball, it's a little more objective and it the lack of objectivity that makes high school stats much less credible then higher level stats.

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Originally posted by calisportsfan:
Stats4gnats....which do you think a college coach out to see a prospect would consider better, the hard hit line drive and ability to square up the ball or a bloop? Just saying....

JEEZ! What is it you HS stat haters don’t get? Where in the OP was anything even remotely said about college coaches and/or what they thought? Just saying….

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Also, I keep Game Changer stats so it's not like I don't enjoy the process it's simply I am of the belief they are only a small part of the picture and as has been mentioned, a 30 game sample is minimal and only as good as the Dad or Mom keeping them

And what have I ever said different than that? Sometimes the “anti-stat” folks make it out that anyone who says anything that might in any way be positive toward keeping stats at the HS level, is implying that only numbers matter, and that any kind of personal knowledge is worthless. I challenge anyone to find anyplace I’ve ever said anything like that. They won’t because I don’t believe it.

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In high school baseball and even club ball to a certain degree, people see what they want to see. In college or professional ball, it's a little more objective and it the lack of objectivity that makes high school stats much less credible then higher level stats.

The objectivity doesn’t come from the level, it comes from the person doing the scoring and running the numbers. Of course the lower the level, the lower the caliber of not just scoring, but the caliber of coaching, umpiring, and for sure the caliber of the players. But just like there are some outstanding coaches at those low levels, there are some pretty great umpires too. And while there aren’t any ML quality players in LLI, there definitely are some that are completely head and shoulders above the rest, and may even be good enough to play at the HSV level for some teams.

So if its possible that there are some outstanding individuals at every position of the game at lower levels, why is it so ridiculously impossible to believe it can’t happen that any HS scorer could possibly be of high enough quality that what he turns out has far more validity and value than the norm? Heck, I’ve run into some pretty knowledgeable folks right here on this web site that are terrific scorers, but what the naye-sayers do, is lump all HS scorers together and designate them as somehow being unworthy of the name.

So when you say: “In college or professional ball, it's a little more objective and it the lack of objectivity that makes high school stats much less credible then higher level stats.”, what you’re really doing is saying no one at that level could possibly be objective, when I’m guessing what you mean is something quite different.

I’m guessing what you mean is: “The average scorer at the HS level isn’t very knowledgeable or objective, and that’s what makes HS stats less credible than higher level stats”. And that’s something I’d agree with 100%.

It also means that when the "book" is being kept by a parent, it's pretty hard to always be objective. By college level or pro level being more objective, I say that because the parent factor is out of the equation. It's like when the coach is a dad and his son plays the same position as yours....you each see different things.

Objective in my vernacular means UNRELATED and not friends of someone's parents or kids etc. It means truly arm's length. That doesn't happen in high school baseball.

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Originally posted by calisportsfan:
It also means that when the "book" is being kept by a parent, it's pretty hard to always be objective. By college level or pro level being more objective, I say that because the parent factor is out of the equation. It's like when the coach is a dad and his son plays the same position as yours....you each see different things.

Objective in my vernacular means UNRELATED and not friends of someone's parents or kids etc. It means truly arm's length. That doesn't happen in high school baseball.

Baseball is a game of stats therefore stats matter. Who is keeping those stats is what matters as well. That is why most don't put much importance in HS stats, in regards to recruiting.
I came across an interesting discussion on a site (proball) a while back. I think a relative of the pitcher posts in defense of poor stats. That even includes hard hit balls and soft bloopers. What it all means.
Some just get crazy over them, but to take up this much band width consistently is ridiculous.

Why is this not in the the stats and scorekeeping forum?

HS BB in CA must be over.

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Originally posted by calisportsfan:
It also means that when the "book" is being kept by a parent, it's pretty hard to always be objective. By college level or pro level being more objective, I say that because the parent factor is out of the equation. It's like when the coach is a dad and his son plays the same position as yours....you each see different things.

Well cali, when my son was playing in college, guess who was keeping the book? And for the two years I was scoring for the team, over 100 games, I’d estimate that there were fewer than 10 games a year where the OSK wasn’t a coach, a player, a parent, or anyone who didn’t have very strong “ties” to the team, so how “objective” the book was being kept is debatable from my perspective. Now maybe at the big D1 level they have some scoring the games who isn’t a coach, player, parent, or other party with strong ties to the team, but the 2 D1 schools here sure don’t. I’ll agree that the books at the college level are likely kept better because there are fewer parents involved, but that doesn’t mean the books are kept objectively.

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Objective in my vernacular means UNRELATED and not friends of someone's parents or kids etc. It means truly arm's length. That doesn't happen in high school baseball.

I don’t know how many times I have to say this, but I’ll try again. I have no child playing on the team I score for, and not even friends of friends. I have the job because the school was new, the coached needed a scorer, and he knew me from when my son played against his teams. The scorer he had at his previous school for almost 15 years had no likes to the team either, other than she lived in the neighborhood of the field. He’s been gone from that school 7 years now, and she’s still scoring for that team.

I’ve been the scorer for this team since they played their 1st V game in 2007, and other than 1 rainout that got canceled and then put back on again that I couldn’t make, it’s the only game I haven’t scored in all those years. I missed scoring 1 game in the 4 years my kid played HS ball, but that’s it. Of course I get to know the players, parents, and coaches, but I don’t socialize with them other than at the field. The HC lives right up the street and I’ve never been to his home or he to mine. The only time I’ve been to anyone’s home who’s ever been on the team, was 2 years when the after season team awards picnic was held at the home of one of the players. I don’t even go to the fundraising dinners, even though I’m always offered a free dinner.

So despite what you believe, it does happen in HS. Granted its pretty rare, but rare isn’t never. I go to games, keep score, go home, write my newsletter, get all the stats done, call the paper when I’m the OSK, put everything into MaxPreps, and perhaps answer a few emails with questions from players or parents. That’s it. I have no skin in the game! I don’t even take the new cap or warm-up jacket that’s offered to me each season. I wear the cap I was given in 2007, and it works just fine for me.

We’re gonna start our playoffs over as at Sac City this week. If you’re in the area, come on over and say hi. You can’t miss me.

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Originally posted by TPM:
…HS BB in CA must be over.

Naw, in our area the playoffs start today, and I just got our summer tournament schedule. It stats on Jun 1 and goes for 6 weeks, 4 tournaments and 4 other double headers.

Stats...my opinion is not personal against you! I will say in my experience you are the minority, not the rule.

I am glad you have the chance to stay involved and enjoy high school baseball and they are lucky to have you.

Bottom line: parents love stats when their son is leading in them and question them when their son is not.

As mentioned by TPM and by many others, the number of college coaches who will do a whole lot based on HS stats has got to be quite low, unless accompanied by a trusted opinion.

And yes, I keep unofficial stats for my guy's HS team, while monitored by a bevy of hawks. Its actually very entertaining both by virtue of the scoring, and the hawking.

But I would never presume to foist them on a college coach despite my belief as to their extreme accuracy.

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Originally posted by calisportsfan:
Stats...my opinion is not personal against you! I will say in my experience you are the minority, not the rule.

I am glad you have the chance to stay involved and enjoy high school baseball and they are lucky to have you.

Never for a second thought it was personal. Frustrating on both sides to be sure, but not personal on either side. And I realize I’m the exception, but there are others out there like myself. And it really gets old being lumped in with scorers who are exactly as many people describe HS scorers: biased, rule ignorant, baseball ignorant, uncaring about what they’re doing, and overall uncaring about the results of what they do. It’s the same thing when a great coach or umpire gets lumped in with lousy coaches or umpires.

People make way too many generalizations for a game with so many differences, but that’s what people do. It takes time to consider options, and often people don’t have the luxury of having that time.

I don’t know how “lucky” they are to have me, but I really do my best to keep as much of the BS off the coach as possible. Parents seldom take up his time with silly garbage like why didn’t Johnny get credited with a hit in yesterday’s game, why was Billy’s name spelled wrong in the paper, or Tommy’s ERA is wrong. Those questions come straight to me or are referred to me, and people know they’re not only get an answer, its gonna be an answer backed up by the rules and the scoresheet. In fact, more often than not, people get much more of an answer than they want.

I’ve found out over the years, that most of the time when things like that happen, its not because the parents are twits or jerks, but rather that they truly care for their child. Sometime though, there are chronic whiners, and I deal with them too. You wouldn’t believe how many times in a given season some parent comes up to me and tries to pump me for information about his kid, or asks me what I thought of so-and-so situation. They know I’ll tell them what I think, not necessarily what the “company line” is, although much more often than not, it’s the same. A lot of the time its just that people want to feel that someone is listening to them, and I can do that easily.