Telling batter where catcher is setting up

Last year a third base coach was yelling pitch location to their hitters. We had the third base dugout. I went to the mound and simply told my pitcher (just loud enough for the third base coach, the pitcher and myself to hear) that the next time he heard that he should throw at the batters head. And, that we would take every one of them down if we had to.

I never said a word to the coach, the umpire, or the tournament director. I took care of it on the field.

Their coach screamed bloody murder. I said it was in his court whether there was a murder or not.

Not one more pitch location call was made.

We won the game. Sweet.

Stealing signs, locations etc is part of the game. Being so stupid to let me know you're doing it deserves drastic action.

LAMBER

That certainly says a lot about your character make up .

THROW AT THE BATTERS HEAD !!!!


What age group are you "coaching" ???

I use that word "coaching" loosely !

You are pure class !!!!!

Yelling pitch location is useless and can hurt a batter more than help. If the catcher is taught how to properly set up for a pitch then by the time the location is yelled the hitter will be so distracted the information is more harmfull than good. Its bush league in my opinion to yell location or what the coach or players thinks is coming. By in no way should you stoop to the level of throwing at a kids head for any reason at any level. It only takes one time for the hitter to get a fastball inside when the coach or players yell curve outside and the hitter and the rest of the team want no part in the information the rest of the game. In spite of what people think it does more harm than good to yell out instructions or information while a hitter is trying to produce at the plate.

As a hitter I do not think you want anyone telling you anything-- it takes away from the focus

TR

I can play you like a drum.

And, I can only deduct that this technique would have also had you screaming bloody murder. Sweet.

You see, the threat was all that was necessary. Not only did it stop the location calls it took their team completely out of their game. They spent the entire game mad at me, screaming to the umpire for relief.....and forgot to play.

Just like your team would have.

It's called competition. It's called intimidation......Learned it well from Bob Gibson.

It was said loud enough to be taken as a threat.

Some might even take it so far to have you taken in for threatening assualt in this day and age -- it happens

You do not know how I nor my team would react

It takes two to play the game--there are many ways to skin a cat or in your case a "polecat"

How old are those kids again that you coach? Regardless --you are teaching intimidation by threat and that is not competition.

As for playing me like a drum--you do not have talent to get thru the door of our rehearsal hall-- my band only excepts professionals

BOTTOM LINE-- teaching that method to kids in youth baseball is TOTALLY CORRECT and if I were commissioner of your league you would be gone, as would any coach not just you, the moment I got wind of what you said "just loud enough for the third base coach, my pitcher and myself to hear"--- it tells me you are truly a "great coach" of todays youth.

I am truly sorry I don't see it your way but your way ain't right!!!!

Rat-a-tat-tat

I have my catcher handle it by quietly telling the hitter he could get one in the ribs if his bench keeps it up. Then the catcher will set up late to fool the bench.

The message gets across after this batter gets out and gets back to the bench.

PITCHING IS THE FINE ART OF INSTILING FEAR....Sandy Koufax. drysdale, pedro, clemens etc, they'd all throw at you for numerous reasons. so who exactly is teaching our youth pitchers intimidation? besides all you have to do is setup on the oposite side some times, and call the pitch to the other side. and they will get confused. as long as the pitcher and catcher are on the same page it doesnt matter what the other team thinks is coming!

Then you agree that is ok for a coach in youth ball to tell his pitcher to throw at the HEAD !!!!

it is never ok for an adult to tell a child to intentionally hurt another child and him do it! i would have said that its coming up and in as in a brush back type pitch, which we all know has room for error and someone might get hit. where as a brushback is ok an intentional throw to the head is not! if you told the child were not going to throw at there head but well tell them we are, that would be a little diferent also!

Exactly my point regarding Lamber's instruction to his pitcher

And if the kids are not HS players and in youth leagues then even up and in can be dangerous because of the control aspect for kids that age

RIPKEN
I have no problem with the "games" that go on within the game but a coach blatantly telling his pitcher to throw at the batters head ( see Lamber the initial post by Lamber) is way out of line--a coach like that does not belong in the game especially at the youth level

i can not say much for i too have been overzelous when a coach taught his kids to stand on every base when a ball was hit, even if they didnt have the ball. the umpire would not call interferance unless there was contact that in his opinion kept the runner from advancing. you could see it was intimidation and stategy when the catcher would go tag the runner by the dugout after he scored to see if he missed the plate, everytime! so i loudly discussed with my kids that they were trying to take the bag away from them, and they were to slide through the fielder to get to the bag. well guess what happened? the catcher was blocking the plate without the ball my player slid in, the catcher reached up in the air to catch the ball leaving him vulnerable and his feet were takin out from under him. he hit face first with his hands in the air. bloody nose and fans wanting my blood for telling him to do it! it was a cleen play but our kids wouldn't be sidestepping thier fielders any more. and i got a reputation as a dirty coach! so maybe the instruction of good hard play quietly without announcing it might be the better choice!!!

i myself have stolen signs and locations. some kids want to know others dont. weve had base coaches and runners sneaking peaks at the catcher, coaches watching the coach calling signs, players watching the coaches and the pitcher for tells, etc. but we never out loud tell anyone about it!! we might call a batter by his last name for inside first name for outside or some other things. why would you give away that you know thier signs?

Some teams are open about it and some teams have more sophisticated methods of communicating it to the batter. At younger ages, I don't think it helps the batters. When my son was learning to hit a curveball, he didn't want to know. Now I think he would.

How hard is it for a catcher to set up a little later?

Just a couple of comments.

• In the age of the lawsuit, if that kid was hit in the head, you will be in court and while you might not be as serious as you want it to sound, a judge just might throw the book at you should that child suffer injury.
• Anytime you know what a team is attempting to do, you instantly have the tools to use against them. I remember a coach stepping out on the field to try and steal our catcher's signals. I yelled out that we would help him and I had my catcher give the signs at his chest. Of course, we have 3 different signaling methods and so, they really never knew what was really coming and often when we showed #1, we were throwing #2. LOL!
• Stealing signs and various other signals are a part of the game. We practice stealing signs and have a very good method. We also practice the art of being covert so that our signs aren't picked up. We routinly rotate sign methods in each game. We also have a sign when I am signaling to the catcher that one certain pattern means that he has the call all to himself.

To me, I love all of that and it helps keep the kids in tune with the game. I was once "caught." The opposing coach yelled the same thing about hitting our kid. The problem was, we weren't doing anything. Our hitting philosophy revolves around simply phrases like "Drive the ball and Move the ball." The kids on our bench yell this out each game for fun. No one is sitting on our benches. The opposing coach swore that we were yelling those phrases as a signal. Well, what are you going to do? I tried to explain to him that my kids were simply staying in the game and ... They dropped us from the schedule. LOL!!!

Just give someone a set of binoculars and have him watch the game from centrefield. Heard of this happening in World Series games as far baack as the 30's. Stealing signs has been part of the game for a long time, and in the Major Leagues down to LL. I think they threw at your head back then too if the other team found out. And someone died after being hit in the head I think in the 40's. I don't think throwing at someone's head is a good idea, even with helmets. Stealing signs can be fun, so there also has to be a fun way of getting back at the other team if they steal your signs.

..though I'm not exactly sure what that would be. I remember 2 summers ago we faced a guy playing for Team Ontario throwing heat, probably 88-90. And his catcher gave the signs so low we could see them from the bench. We had some kind of code, can't remember something like "Let's go #23" for a FB, and "Let's go Bob" for a curve. I remeber a cojuple times when I was up my teammates were wrong. Good thing the guy couldn't hit the plate.

I coach high school baseball in Texas and one of my on deck hitter's jobs is to relay to our hitter where the catcher is setting up. We are not obvious about it, but we do try and do it. Conversely, we stress to our catchers to set up as late as possible.

In 1999, Miami beat Florida State in the CWS and the Miami hitters credited alot of their success to the fact that their on-deck hitters were relaying location.

Some people see this as bush league or unsportsmanship. One of my duties (as a coach) to my kids is to give us the best chance to win. It is within the rules and stealing signs, etc., is part of the game and always will be.

Now, if I know someone is on my signs or is relaying our locations, then we try to fix it ourselves. If my catcher has to say something to the hitter to play mind games, so be it. Will anyone ever be thrown at intentionally, no! Why do that? The other team is just doing their job...you know...playing to win. We just need to be one step ahead of them. This is gamesmanship, it is part of baseball.

I think it is bull****- i know my kids high school does it- he hates it-coach says that you cant be in program if you think your to good for this type of pitch calling-!problem is if your one of the really good players-the bench p-layers love to see how you look stupid when they tell you a curve is coming instead of fastball or vice versa-the result of coaches who carry way too many kids on their rosters-creating animosity toward starters from the benc

Those bench players would be history if they played for me!!!

This topic comes up all the time in casual baseball conversations. I just can't get with the theory that giving location is so wrong. So wrong, that a grown man would go out of his way to tell a child to throw at another child's head in an effort of force to make the opponent stop.

Rather than spending so much time quoting your knowledge of Bob Gibson, and bragging about how wonderful you are for threatening a group of children to the point that they could not "focus" (something you should be sooooo very proud of), spend some time coaching your catcher.

Stealing an ADVANTAGE -whether it be signs or otherwise- is a part of our game.

There is a coach in our county that has won more than 600 high school games, and sixteen league championships in a row. He is a NATIONAL high school baseball Hall-of-Famer. His teams have mastered the art of gaining an advantage. I don't believe he needs to apologize for this.

Whether or not it helps the hitter is an entirely different conversation.

It would take much less time to teach your catcher how to avoid this than to complain -or threaten children- because of it.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Lamber:
I went to the mound and simply told my pitcher (just loud enough for the third base coach, the pitcher and myself to hear) that the next time he heard that he should throw at the batters head. And, that we would take every one of them down if we had to.

---

Lamber - The "Freddy Krueger of Youth Baseball"
LOL

As one who as a player and coach has put in many years I have to shake my head. What is the coach thinking "tell the player where the location is"What does he say and how does he do it? Is this something new in this progressive age of coaching? Bottom line you do not do that!!!! period If the catcher or pitcher is tipping off the type pitches there are subtle ways of relaying the info to the batter. It is on them. Location is something that is recognizable by the way the catcher sets up. And the only way other than what has been described above is to look back. Again a no no but being from the old school maybe that one has changed also.

So, your opinion is that it is OK to give the batter "subtle" methods of relaying the pitch selection, but it is the devil's work to tip your hitter off on location. ??? That makes zero sense.

Why is it ok to tell them the type, but not which spot?

I believe that sign relaying should be done with some baseball savvy, but your opinion is pure contradiction.

Along those same lines, unless the other team is screaming "INSIDE, INSIDE," or the opposite, you can't be CERTAIN they are relaying the signs anyway.

I coached first base as a young assistant and I became pretty good at picking pitches. BUT, on most days I was thought to be tipping my hitter I never had the pitch. It was very easy to make the other team believe that I did. First name, last name, number, catchy hitting phrases- whatever- it's easy to throw those out there on easy to predict counts. My hitters never thought twice about me relaying their number vs. their last name because it was insignificant to them. We did not have a communication system in place (most of the time ) However, the other coach, catcher, pitcher will miss read those comments as tipping pitches and split their focus.

I am not saying this to preach that it is the right thing to do, or best practice, I am merely addressing the idea of being "subtle."

You could -as Lamber might have?- been reading into something that was not even there.

This is just one of the many beauties our game possesses - it will play mind games with you!

I got one for you....Next time the opposing team is doing that have the pitcher hit the batter in the head and then have him point at the dugout.

You need to read this whole thread. You're a day late and a....we already covered that option.

Lamber- You're wrong here, bottom line. Instead of threats, how about talking to the opposing coach? Hell, you really aren't instructed to throw at someone's head at the PRO level, let alone amateur. Probably a bad threat...and it made you look like a classless putz in the eyes of everyone that heard it. I disagree with telling hitters location...but you have to find a better way to handle it.

Hitter's first name = inside.
Hitter's last name = outside.
Coming from on deck hitter.
It's one thing for a player to intimidate the other team. Their young and the ones playing. But as a coach my job is to motivate my own players not take the other team out of the game by my own actions. Wins just aren't that important that I lose my own self respect.

We dont waste our time trying to pick up signals or distracting our hitters with useless information. Spend your time concentrating on hitting the ball and laying off bad pitches. We have played teams many times that spend the whole game playing games like yelling batters number for inside and name for outside etc. Coaches that yell stay back for curve and go get it for fastball. If a kid needs that in order to hit he is in trouble. Catchers should never set up on the location of the pitch untill the pitcher is into his delivery anyway and if a kid can focus on the ball and listen to a scream and still hit the ball he dont need the help. Where I come from this is all bush league. I have never faced a team that did all this bush league stuff that was worth a flip. They spend all their time on this stuff because they cant play. If you can play you dont have to gimmick the game. And thats all this stuff is is gimmick baseball bush league baseball. And you tell a kid inside and the pitcher throws outside for whatever reason. Maybe the catcher sets up late or the pitcher misses his spot that does happen you know. Now what does your baseball player do? I would be ashamed as a player to think that I needed a gimmick to hit another kids pitch. What a joke. But I dont hold it against the players it is a direct reflection of the head coach. And if its a non conference game it will be the last one with them. And if its a conference game we will be done in five. We also call it no class.

The pitcher tipping off his pitches is one thing. I tried to teach my players to study the pitcher and pick up things that might tip off his pitches. Position on the rubber. Different position of the wrist in the glove when throwing something other than a fast ball. Leg kick arm angle etcetc. That is the pitcher who he can see. To pick up catcher position he would have to peek. Something that you just do not do!!!! At least that is the way it was. Of course who knows today. So for players on the bench or on deck circle to be the batters eyes(peeking) is as we would say back when bush. At the professional level if found out the batter gets "dusted off". At the high school level if it happens I as the coach would never have thrown at a hitter. let me say this that you do not do that at that level. However I would have a few choice words for the opposing coach.

I agree picking up things like arm slots for different pitches or fumbling with the ball on breaking pitches etc is part of the game that kids should study and pick up on. How in the world is a kid supposed to hit with people yelling at him while he is trying to focus on the pitch? Learn how to hit for goodness sake and forget about gimmicks. It kind of reminds me of some dads that sit in the stands and yell at their kid "Look out for the curve ball Jimmy" as the pitcher is getting ready to throw the ball. Im sure that really helps the kid hit. Especially when he gets a fastball and K's. Now he has an excuse and blames his pops. Leave them alone and let them just play.

A batter peeking at the catcher's signals or location says a lot about his confidence! I figure the hitter is half-way back to the dugout if he feels the need to peek.

There certainly are a lot of ways to deal with the peeking and tipoffs without threating the other batter or coach. These situations are a great opportunity to teach your catcher a few counter measures that will silence the tippers and/or help his team pickup of couple of easy outs. What could be more satisfying for the catcher and you then to hear the opposing coach call out the wrong pitch to the hitter for strike three?

At Low levels baseball you can tell the batter where the pitcher is trying to throw the ball, and the hitter will have a great problem. Pitchers at this level, 80% of the time can't hit spots.

1st of all, no decent coach would tell a player (threat or otherwise) to throw at a kid's head. Even pro players aren't trying to hit a guy in the head, and they get paid (make sure you've PLAYED pro ball before you argue this, please!).
2nd, I agree with one of the coaches who said that you simply set up in a different spot at times, set up late, etc. Kids don't have time to think about instructions and swing within seconds...too much information.

Subtle is the key word. Back when i use to play highschool ball. We developed a system in stealing signs and preventing them from being stolen. We would have the first base coach close to the line, peeking in on the catcher if he picked up the series or knew the pitch he would tell us QUITLY in the dugout and one person would realy the sign from him. For a fastball he would look to the right cruveballk look to the left, didnt know would spit on the ground. But we only realyed those signs to the hitter wanted them or could benifit form them. Say they had trouble with curves. You could also get it form the catcher, on a sunny day with the sun in the right position, IF the catches signs wernt in the right place the cast Shadows, and the team would know. In picking up the other teams Hitting signs (Which can be veryhard) We wore sunglasses and try not to tip the coach off that we were looking at him and only when the player or players knew there signs 100% would relay them to the coach. then in college the samwe was done just in differnt methods If a baserunner on sencod knew the series look to the left Fastball. Many teams steal signs, its not a big secert its how you do it is the secert. For the man who said Stealing signs means your team is no good, That simpily isnt true. You try to get every advantge you can to win. If you lose to a team who picked your signs, did you lose cause they picked your signs?

It appears to me that most of you have little confidence in your coaching/teaching/playing ability or the confidence in your team/teammates to just play the game on the field. Sounds like you have way too much time on your hands if you are spending it on these meaningless tasks.

I doubt very seriously that there are many HS players that can even begin to adjust to what you are trying to accomplish. I will go so far as to say that a "good" pitcher/catcher battery doesn't care whether you know location or not...they will beat you 80% of the time anyway.

If more teams focused on teaching abilities and situations, they wouldn't need to worry about such meaningless info.

Throwing at someones head is the easiest way to get your a** kicked and then you should be removed from ever teaching a kid again. Lamber, Teacherman...you are an idiot!!

This thread teaches nothing and is an indication of what's wrong with baseball today!