shift some weight back
hands to the ball
land your foot closed
knob to the ball
take a short stride
just pick your foot up and put it down
Original Post
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circular negative move coil
quote:negative move coil
curious why?
I think we can all learn some new ones but when I can get results from a kid, I don't care which terms I used, as long as it works.
Why?
KISS
And why do you not like the terms you listed?
KISS
And why do you not like the terms you listed?
Coachric has a great point. Different verbal cues work with different kids. But in my experience, the most complicated and buzzword loaded verbal cues seldom work with any kid. JMHO
"Half way on a flyball" is a common expression but is misleading. We want the player to get as far as they can on the fly but still be able to return to their base if the ball is caught. Half way may either be too much or too little to meet that criteria. I still use the "half way" expression but my players are clear on its meaning. What about "get as much as you can on the fly" ??
I once used them all but quit...this is why
coil and uncoil . foot up and down is OK if hip coil lifts itquote:shift some weight back....slide hips back you will slide hips forward. If your hips coil the weight will shift with no thought about weight
hands to the ball....first move of hands should be negative ( cocking)and work with hip coil (negative)
land your foot closed.. rotating into toe touch is connected and powerfulgiving the last stretch for the torso for power hitting.
knob to the ball...pulling knob straight line will not interface with the hip turn and swing initiation. The hips cannot turn to assist straight line hand pattern for optimum batspeeds KNob goes to Oppo box first
take a short stride,,,proper loading as your stride should restrict stride to what is necessary...it can be a no teach
just pick your foot up and put it down
I think we covered this before but "extension." Rational, the arms are not extended away from the body in an efficient swing. JMHO! Swingbuster, would you give some rational for why we could lose those terms? Just want to see how your thought process is on those terms. BTW, would you lose the term "hands inside the ball." If so, we'd disagree on that one. I think that that is one of our best teaching phrases. JMHO!
Regarding pitching...
Just throw strikes.
Just playing catch.
Bend!
Just throw strikes.
Just playing catch.
Bend!
quote:"hands inside the ball
Coach Butler
we do inside seam drill daily. We try to load in order to get inside the ball.
I think we work more on the loading pattern and hip coil to get inside than the cue but it is an essential for us too.
The first thing to make the negative move is the first thing to make the positive move. So if the hips lead the load they will lead the swing. If they freeze on the load ( block out) then the hands will take over an dusually roll over the ball
Coaches:
What do you all think about chop and stop used as training phrase for hitters that recoil too much.
Ex: Imagine a rapid-fire soft toss drill with hitter recoiling quickly to reset for next ball on the way from player/coach sitting on bucket.
Have seen hitters do this in live, game situation. Almost like a chop at ball but stop before swing is complete.
What do you think?
Shep
What do you all think about chop and stop used as training phrase for hitters that recoil too much.
Ex: Imagine a rapid-fire soft toss drill with hitter recoiling quickly to reset for next ball on the way from player/coach sitting on bucket.
Have seen hitters do this in live, game situation. Almost like a chop at ball but stop before swing is complete.
What do you think?
Shep
shep
we did quick hands drills at one period of my sons development. He got quick hands,,,
Looking back a big mistake,,,never swing at anything without the hips leading,,when you rush the batter you are favoring upper body hitting.
As long as the hips are leading I suppose chop and stop is fine... again its the details
we did quick hands drills at one period of my sons development. He got quick hands,,,
Looking back a big mistake,,,never swing at anything without the hips leading,,when you rush the batter you are favoring upper body hitting.
As long as the hips are leading I suppose chop and stop is fine... again its the details
Shep,
I wouldnt be in favor of using chop and stop.
I dont believe that using a bad technique to correct another problem is helpful.
You dont chop and stop when you swing - so I dont know why it should be used as a training technique.
JMHO.
I wouldnt be in favor of using chop and stop.
I dont believe that using a bad technique to correct another problem is helpful.
You dont chop and stop when you swing - so I dont know why it should be used as a training technique.
JMHO.
No,
You guys misunderstood! I meant use the phrase chop and stop for correctional purposes and certainly not to teach this to hitters as "Benchmark Technique"-lol-Shep cares!
Guess you did answer two questions about quick toss which I agree promotes upperbody hitting and interferes with proper rotational movement even though used widely for quick hands by HS coaches.
Do agree that it is not a good hitting drill though. Lots of better alternatives.
Guess we need to lose the terms chop and stop.
Patent won't be necessary-lol
Shep
You guys misunderstood! I meant use the phrase chop and stop for correctional purposes and certainly not to teach this to hitters as "Benchmark Technique"-lol-Shep cares!
Guess you did answer two questions about quick toss which I agree promotes upperbody hitting and interferes with proper rotational movement even though used widely for quick hands by HS coaches.
Do agree that it is not a good hitting drill though. Lots of better alternatives.
Guess we need to lose the terms chop and stop.
Patent won't be necessary-lol
Shep
Donny,quote:Originally posted by swingbuster:
shep
we did quick hands drills at one period of my sons development. He got quick hands,,,
Looking back a big mistake,,,never swing at anything without the hips leading,,when you rush the batter you are favoring upper body hitting.
As long as the hips are leading I suppose chop and stop is fine... again its the details
Interesting comments. I'm curious. That left handed hitter you've got on display at your web site hitting off a hands back hitter... Would you say he's favoring his upper body or would you say he's rotating efficiently?
Jason
Hey Jason...
Funny you should ask..he plays for me now on varsity. He was JV when that was taken.
( 10 grader). We stayed at practice yesterday front tossing and working his negative moves and getting him out of his closed stance. He feezes his hips during the load at times getting tight and tense and down't flow back/ coil.
His hands are in a position where they must load so he gets out of synch at times and I videoed him from behind yesterday
In a closed stance he feels they( hips) are alread back and what doesn't coil first doesn't lead first. Making the small alignment adjustment and having him think hips and hands cocking.....he hit very well and stopped rolling over the top.
I think that is what gave that appearance on that clip. I may shoot another and see what happens with a hip coil. He would have matched and synched the timing of the HBH better is he had. If you don't hip coil you never rotate efficiently
He is a special kid...hope We can allow him an environment to grow.
Funny you should ask..he plays for me now on varsity. He was JV when that was taken.
( 10 grader). We stayed at practice yesterday front tossing and working his negative moves and getting him out of his closed stance. He feezes his hips during the load at times getting tight and tense and down't flow back/ coil.
His hands are in a position where they must load so he gets out of synch at times and I videoed him from behind yesterday
In a closed stance he feels they( hips) are alread back and what doesn't coil first doesn't lead first. Making the small alignment adjustment and having him think hips and hands cocking.....he hit very well and stopped rolling over the top.
I think that is what gave that appearance on that clip. I may shoot another and see what happens with a hip coil. He would have matched and synched the timing of the HBH better is he had. If you don't hip coil you never rotate efficiently
He is a special kid...hope We can allow him an environment to grow.
quote:Originally posted by Flintoide:
"Half way on a flyball" is a common expression but is misleading. We want the player to get as far as they can on the fly but still be able to return to their base if the ball is caught. Half way may either be too much or too little to meet that criteria. I still use the "half way" expression but my players are clear on its meaning. What about "get as much as you can on the fly" ??
Flintoide,
We teach "on a fly ball, get as far as you can go so that if the fielder catches the ball and makes a perfect throw trying to double you off, you will just barely beat it back safely."
We say "half way on a fly ball" but every player knows that it's just a verbal cue reminding them to do what they've been taught.
Mike F
I'm guessing by your response that you believe the young guy in question, at least in the clip on display at your website, is upper body dominant and rotating inefficiently. You didn't actually come out and say it one way or the other so if I'm wrong let me know. Does he swing that way on a pitched ball? Also based on your response I'm guessing that you now feel confident teaching players how to rotate. Something you couldn't say a year ago. At least not to me anyway. Again correct me if I'm wrong.quote:Originally posted by swingbuster:
In a closed stance he feels they( hips) are alread back and what doesn't coil first doesn't lead first. Making the small alignment adjustment and having him think hips and hands cocking.....he hit very well and stopped rolling over the top.
I think that is what gave that appearance on that clip. I may shoot another and see what happens with a hip coil. He would have matched and synched the timing of the HBH better is he had. If you don't hip coil you never rotate efficiently
Continuing with the assumption that you now understand how to teach players to rotate I'm curious to know how you're doing it. You mentioned working with the young guy in question and having him coil his hips, think about his hips, and c-o-c-k his hands. Again if I'm wrong please correct me. I apologize for being skeptical but that is all it took to transform an inefficient upper body dominant hitter into a hitter who can turn/unload his body efficiently into the ball? If that's true I'm impressed. I'd certainly love to see a before and after clip of him (with and/or without the hands back hitter).
I do have to take exception with your assumption that "what doesn't coil first doesn't lead first". I call it an assumption because you said it like it was an absolute, which is obviously not the case. I have several clips of hitters who don't coil their hips but still lead with them. That doesn't mean I'm against coiling the hips (I'm not). I'm just saying I've seen good hitters that don't. Having spent quite a bit of time working on rotation with my son I would argue that if you can turn efficiently, not just the hips but also the hands/arms/shoulders, the hips will lead whether they coil or not.
I do have a position on the actual topic of this thread. I don't believe any cue should be "lost". If the teacher uses a term/cue that gets the player to do what the teacher wants that player doing then it's a good term/cue in my book.
Jason
quote:I'm guessing by your response that you believe the young guy in question, at least in the clip on display at your website, is upper body dominant and rotating inefficiently.
HE MAKES A FULL TURN THROUGH BUT SOMETHING IS OUT OF SYNCH. IT SEEMED TO GET IN SYNCH WHEN HE COCKED HIS HANDS AND HIS HIPS. HE DOESN'T MAKE CONSISTENT CONTACT ACTUALLY ON PITCHES I THINK HE SHOULD HIT. NOT SURE WHATS HAPPENING . MISSING QUALITY PITCHES CAN BE A MYSTERY
You didn't actually come out and say it one way or the other so if I'm wrong let me know. Does he swing that way on a pitched ball?
WHAT WAY?
Also based on your response I'm guessing that you now feel confident teaching players how to rotate.
WE TEACH DIFFERENTLY I BELIEVE. I NEVER GO TO A PRACTICE AND SAY I AM GOING TO TEACH YOU HOW TO ROTATE. IF YOU CAN TEACH SOMETHING WELL DOES IT MEAN THE PLAYERS CAN DO IT WELL AND GET RESULTS. I DON'T KNOW.
Something you couldn't say a year ago. At least not to me anyway. Again correct me if I'm wrong.
I THINK I SAID I DON'T KNOW HOW YOU GUYS TEACH A GUY TO ROTATE. I ALSO DON'T KNOW HOW YOU TEACH LOAD OR THE RESULTS IT GETS OVER 10 YEARS.
Continuing with the assumption that you now understand how to teach players to rotate
I DON'T... I TEACH THEN HOW TO LOAD AND ACCELERATE THE BAT BACKWARDS AT SWING INITIATION AND SAY HIT THE BALL AND THEY ROTATE. IN THE KA-POW I TEACH THE KA...IN OUR MODEL , IF THEY DON'T KNOW THE KA THEN THE POW DOESN'T MATTER.
I'm curious to know how you're doing it.
I REALLY WORK MORE UPPER BODY LOADING . I STARTED TWO WEEKS AGO AND MOST OF THE WORK IS LOADING......HIP AND HAND LOADING THAT IS WHERE THE MOST WORK COULD BE ACCOMPLISHED IN THE PRESWING. THESE GUYS LOOK PREETY GOOD WHEN THEY START RIGHT. HAND LOADING IS WORKING THE BOTTOM HAND UNDER THE TOP AND KEEPING IT AT THE ARM PIT AREA.
You mentioned working with the young guy in question and having him coil his hips, think about his hips, and c-o-c-k his hands.
ETEAMZ FUNGO POST
Are you familiar with the story told by Slaught about his exchange with Barry Bonds about hand path? Loren Clifton related a similar story about Glaus and some young stud with the Diamondbacks. Glaus thought he was hip-before-hands but the rookie thought he was a hands-before-hips hitter. When he demonstrated his swing, he wasn't
THESE CONVERSATIONS EXIST IN MANY CIRCLES. ROTATION IS NOT MENTIONED AT ALL IN SOME HITTING CIRCLES.
Again if I'm wrong please correct me. I apologize for being skeptical but that is all it took to transform an inefficient upper body dominant hitter into a hitter who can turn/unload his body efficiently into the ball?
I WANT HIM TO HAVE A GOOD NEGATIVE MOVE . HIS HANDS **** PERFECTLY AND HIS HIPS FROZE. TO ME THAT IS A LARGE PROBLEM CONCERNING PLATE COVERAGE AND SYNCHRONIZATION. I CANNOT TEACH UNLOAD...IT HAPPENS TOO FAST. IN HITTING YOUR LUCKY IF THEY CAN ALTER THEIR LOAD.
If that's true I'm impressed. THANKS
I'd certainly love to see a before and after clip of him (with and/or without the hands back hitter).
HE HIT DECENT TODAY. WE JUST NEEDS SOME LIVE ARM REPS LESS WEIGHT LIFTING, AND HE IS A LITTLE TOO WIDE AND SWINGS REAL HARD. A 10TH GRADE ON VARSITY PROVING HIMSELF AND PLEASING HIS DAD
I do have to take exception with your assumption that "what doesn't coil first doesn't lead first". I call it an assumption because you said it like it was an absolute, which is obviously not the case.
I TOLD HIM IT WAS A LAW AND TO PLEASE TRY IT AS HE WAS OVER THE TOP....IT HELPED OFF THE TEE AND FRONT TOSS. HE MIGHT STRIKE OUT IN A GAME ;I DON'T KNOW
I have several clips of hitters who don't coil their hips but still lead with them. That doesn't mean I'm against coiling the hips (I'm not).
IT WAS NOT WORKING FOR HIM AND HE TURNS LIKE A MAD MAN
TED WILLIAMS SAID COILING OF TE HIPS AS YOU STRIDE TO HIT WAS THE MOST IMPORTANT PART OF HITTING. I THINK THERE IS MORE TO IT TOO
I'm just saying I've seen good hitters that don't. Having spent quite a bit of time working on rotation with my son I would argue that if you can turn efficiently, not just the hips but also the hands/arms/shoulders, the hips will lead whether they coil or not.
THAT MIGHT WORK ; I WOULD HAVE TO SEE WHAT THE HANDS/ BAT DOES AT SWING INITIATION. WE MUST HANDLE AWAY PITCHES TO COMPETE. I CAN MAKE THE HIPS LEAD WITH PROPER HAND SET AND LOADING.
FOR ME ROTATIONAL HITTING IS ABOUT THE BARREL ACCELERATING BACKWARDS AT SWING INITIATION. IF THAT HAPPENS MY GUYS ROTATE WELL. IF THEY DON'T THEIR SWING LOOKS BAD .
I WATCH 18 YEAR OLD GUYS GET BETTER IN TWO DAYS USING THIS METHOD. I TRIED THE OTHER FOR 10 YEARS AND GREW WEARY OF WHAT I SAW.
I do have a position on the actual topic of this thread. I don't believe any cue should be "lost". If the teacher uses a term/cue that gets the player to do what the teacher wants that player doing then it's a good term/cue in my book.
OUR UPPER BODY LOADING MECHANICS WERE POOR. FIXING THAT WITH TEE WORK HAS MADE AN AMAZING DIFFERENCE AND I NEVER HAD TO MENTION ANY POSITIVE MOVES AT ALL MUCH.
JASON..BRANDON HAS ENOUGH TIME LEFT FOR YOU TO CHANGE YOUR MIND BACK AND FORTH ABOUT WHAT WORKS THREE MORE TIMES AND YOU WILL ....I CAN ALMOST GUARANTEE IT.
Jason
Wow Swing!
I'm impressed with your love and dedication!
Great stuff, keep it coming, I'll read it.
In fact, I'll read all of it and hope to pick something up new to add to my own ideas.
Shep
I'm impressed with your love and dedication!
Great stuff, keep it coming, I'll read it.
In fact, I'll read all of it and hope to pick something up new to add to my own ideas.
Shep
Donny,
Whatever gets the results is what matters regardless of what you do. My son pretty much started over last year. He's a long ways away but he's getting closer. I like Bonds, I like Ramirez, I like Pujols... We experiment with everything. My comments always come through the filter that is my son. He's a hard worker. Hit over .400 last season with a horrible swing. Pitching is his passion, but he wants to be a force at the plate. What you saw in that drill I showed you last year isn't how he hits in games. But what he learned from that drill has set him up to be the force at the plate he expects to be.
Would love to see a clip of that young guy when you get a chance. I'm not really concerned with who knows more than who. I just want to help my son get better. That is my agenda.
Take care!
Jason
Whatever gets the results is what matters regardless of what you do. My son pretty much started over last year. He's a long ways away but he's getting closer. I like Bonds, I like Ramirez, I like Pujols... We experiment with everything. My comments always come through the filter that is my son. He's a hard worker. Hit over .400 last season with a horrible swing. Pitching is his passion, but he wants to be a force at the plate. What you saw in that drill I showed you last year isn't how he hits in games. But what he learned from that drill has set him up to be the force at the plate he expects to be.
Would love to see a clip of that young guy when you get a chance. I'm not really concerned with who knows more than who. I just want to help my son get better. That is my agenda.
Take care!
Jason
quote:Originally posted by swingbuster:
...FOR ME ROTATIONAL HITTING IS ABOUT THE BARREL ACCELERATING BACKWARDS AT SWING INITIATION. IF THAT HAPPENS MY GUYS ROTATE WELL. ...
Very telling statement.
Wow linear! I do have to agree but also agree with swing on some points too.
Shep
Shep
quote:I do have to agree but also agree with swing on some points too
Thanks Shep..I work with what sends effortless line drives back at practice applying less effort than the player thought necessary.
quote:Very telling statement
It works for my players and I have seen no occassion to change. How many kids are you working with now and how many days per week. What feed back are you getting from player performance. How many D-1 clinics have you worked? Tick tick tick
You have to be an idiot or just a contrarian and I know your not an idiot.
If the barrel fails to accelerate backwards at launch you are not a rotational hitter.....you may need help seeing that ...it took me a while too
jason, If brandon is loading properly then the barrel must be accelerating backwards at initiation. That will occur in one plane or two plane swings if done right
One plane , load unloading can do that well if you execute the scap load for only some guys. It isn't the scap load making the difference...its the kids ability to execute it properly.
It is also coaches unwillingness to accept the fact that bat plane changes must occur when many kids scap load and they( coaches)have the lead elbow out in the pitch interferring with the load and hidding of the hands.
The hidding of the hands should be effortless!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Also many coaches get so focused on the rear shoulder that they don't know how important it is for the lead elbow to relax and come down to the pect muscle to load the rear elbow back.
I don't think you can load well sometimes if the bat barrel is not given freedom the change planes. IOWS if the bottom hand works more under the top in your hand loading / cocking the the barrel is forced out of the 45 slot.
If he is a good pitcher he can have a swing that looks goods.
You may be limiting his athletic potental somewhat to get synched and flowing if he does **** and coil hands and hips in the preswing. As loading should be effortless ; rotation should be efforless. THey both are when they work together for us
You more than anyone here knows that I changed from a LL swing ( one piece)( hands cocked) to a swing that gets better bat displacement, more separation, and more dynamic loading.
Why?...I left LL and went to JV then varsity where the guys are stronger, less ball fear and can execute the swing I kow gets results. The other reason is that I spend three years at varisty watching the LL swing fail us in many ways The upper body loading HAS been an add on for me at this point and a real eye opener.
My ideas abouthitting have evolved over time too and now I am really happy for the first time with my methods
Enjoy the journey and don't believe the internet crowd and the turf wars( I know you keep that in perspective as we have discussed that). They are bring something of value to the table. You just have to try new things and find what creates the natural feel in your son.
Everybodies brain is wired to seen and receive info differently
One plane , load unloading can do that well if you execute the scap load for only some guys. It isn't the scap load making the difference...its the kids ability to execute it properly.
It is also coaches unwillingness to accept the fact that bat plane changes must occur when many kids scap load and they( coaches)have the lead elbow out in the pitch interferring with the load and hidding of the hands.
The hidding of the hands should be effortless!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Also many coaches get so focused on the rear shoulder that they don't know how important it is for the lead elbow to relax and come down to the pect muscle to load the rear elbow back.
I don't think you can load well sometimes if the bat barrel is not given freedom the change planes. IOWS if the bottom hand works more under the top in your hand loading / cocking the the barrel is forced out of the 45 slot.
If he is a good pitcher he can have a swing that looks goods.
You may be limiting his athletic potental somewhat to get synched and flowing if he does **** and coil hands and hips in the preswing. As loading should be effortless ; rotation should be efforless. THey both are when they work together for us
You more than anyone here knows that I changed from a LL swing ( one piece)( hands cocked) to a swing that gets better bat displacement, more separation, and more dynamic loading.
Why?...I left LL and went to JV then varsity where the guys are stronger, less ball fear and can execute the swing I kow gets results. The other reason is that I spend three years at varisty watching the LL swing fail us in many ways The upper body loading HAS been an add on for me at this point and a real eye opener.
My ideas abouthitting have evolved over time too and now I am really happy for the first time with my methods
Enjoy the journey and don't believe the internet crowd and the turf wars( I know you keep that in perspective as we have discussed that). They are bring something of value to the table. You just have to try new things and find what creates the natural feel in your son.
Everybodies brain is wired to seen and receive info differently
quote:Originally posted by swingbuster:
If the barrel fails to accelerate backwards at launch you are not a rotational hitter.....you may need help seeing that ...it took me a while too
Of course you didn't address the "telling" part.
That might put you in a corner.
Ok you guys,
On the lighter side of "terms we could lose"-LOL
Swing, what do you think about the fastball of the prospect CR in your area? Could he have the best FB in 06 class?
Making a preferential list, will respect Selma input.
If you taught that kid what you argue about here, linear is in big trouble_LOL
On the lighter side of "terms we could lose"-LOL
Swing, what do you think about the fastball of the prospect CR in your area? Could he have the best FB in 06 class?
Making a preferential list, will respect Selma input.
If you taught that kid what you argue about here, linear is in big trouble_LOL
quote:Swing, what do you think about the fastball of the prospect CR in your area? Could he have the best FB in 06 class?
I don't have a lot to compare day in day out. One of the kids FB ball runs so. He can grip a four seam so that is runs inside to rh.
I always admired Maddox' ability to throw FBs in the middle and the ball not stay in the middle. He can do that.
Making a preferential list, will respect Selma input.
I will give you the AISA 3A league best in about 3 months
If you taught that kid what you argue about here, linear is in big trouble_LOL
Linear just how connected are you with ******. I hear pretty close. There is a serious bias at work here. Splains all I need to know.
If your son is a pitcher, please lose the expression "Just throw strikes!".........trust me he is trying to throw strikes.....
In the youth leagues, the more Mom/Dad yells "throw strikes" the more chance it ends up in the dirt, the backstop or in the batters ear..
In the youth leagues, the more Mom/Dad yells "throw strikes" the more chance it ends up in the dirt, the backstop or in the batters ear..
kind of like "lay off the high stuff' or thats in the dirt come-on.
They knew that after the swung dummie
They knew that after the swung dummie
Swingbuster:
Your posts on the subject of hand cocking/negative loading really intrigue me. Although my son has learned to rotate somewhat effectively, I’ve been unsuccessful in teaching him how to do what you describe. I share your belief in its importance because, by accident, I discovered it’s effectiveness in my own swing while hitting fly balls to a group of little leaguers. I found that by adding a small backward load (**** of the wrists) the balls would fly off my bat in a way they hadn’t before. Ever since, I’ve been recruited by other coaches to hit fly balls because I can hit them further than most. This is not bragging - when I played I stunk the place up as a hitter. This was strictly an adult onset trial and error discovery.
Although I agree with you that no two kids learn in identical ways, I would really appreciate it if you could tell us what cues seem to be most effective in getting your kids to learn this move. I’ve read your other posts on the subject, but perhaps because of my inability to see, I’m still not quite clear on precisely what to tell my kid. He learned to rotate from a great instructor but is very skeptical about hand cocking, because it seems to run counter to the belief system of some “rotationalists.” Thanks for any help.
Your posts on the subject of hand cocking/negative loading really intrigue me. Although my son has learned to rotate somewhat effectively, I’ve been unsuccessful in teaching him how to do what you describe. I share your belief in its importance because, by accident, I discovered it’s effectiveness in my own swing while hitting fly balls to a group of little leaguers. I found that by adding a small backward load (**** of the wrists) the balls would fly off my bat in a way they hadn’t before. Ever since, I’ve been recruited by other coaches to hit fly balls because I can hit them further than most. This is not bragging - when I played I stunk the place up as a hitter. This was strictly an adult onset trial and error discovery.
Although I agree with you that no two kids learn in identical ways, I would really appreciate it if you could tell us what cues seem to be most effective in getting your kids to learn this move. I’ve read your other posts on the subject, but perhaps because of my inability to see, I’m still not quite clear on precisely what to tell my kid. He learned to rotate from a great instructor but is very skeptical about hand cocking, because it seems to run counter to the belief system of some “rotationalists.” Thanks for any help.
Db
I differ in that if you need that much work to rotate then you are forcing two pieces togther that don't fit. Your trying to turn something in a circle with the hips that is not circular.
Its not working and people have ignored Mankins work. I did too as I didn't see it.
Keep your hands at the tip of the rear shoulder and work the bottom hand under the top as you coil the hips, bend and stride. You will see the lead elbow comes down to the chest wall and the rear elbow works up. The bat barrel goes out of the 45 slot and infront of the helmet or splitting the helmet
thats is loading the hands. It also loads the scaps if you will without thinking about some muscle on your back. When you rotation starts and your hands turn over back into the plane the bat gets accelerated backwards in the perfect circular path that you want it to stay on.
NOW ..do that and tell me how hard it is to rotate your hips....circular top, slight shift and circular bottom.....makes a lot of sense to me
Scap loading is a nice observation compared to counter -rotation but the hand cocking cue gets it done and can replace scap load for teaching IMHO as far as terminlogy.
THere is a brain link from hands to hips. When you load the hands the hips feel like they need to get out of the way and it triggers them to coil AS YOU STRIDE and there is no over stride with a negative hand and hip move occurring. There is no doubt in my mind watching Ted Williams that he was a hands and hips trigger guy. You cannot coach the shoulders easily and I see no need to do it.
Have you seen the Ted Williams gif at Shawns site?? http://s6.invisionfree.com/Hitting/index.php?showtopic=240&st=0&#last
Absolute confirmation....of hips and hands cocking . The rear elbow stays down and there is little scap loading and he is generating amzing bat speed in ths cliip with a half swing
I differ in that if you need that much work to rotate then you are forcing two pieces togther that don't fit. Your trying to turn something in a circle with the hips that is not circular.
Its not working and people have ignored Mankins work. I did too as I didn't see it.
Keep your hands at the tip of the rear shoulder and work the bottom hand under the top as you coil the hips, bend and stride. You will see the lead elbow comes down to the chest wall and the rear elbow works up. The bat barrel goes out of the 45 slot and infront of the helmet or splitting the helmet
thats is loading the hands. It also loads the scaps if you will without thinking about some muscle on your back. When you rotation starts and your hands turn over back into the plane the bat gets accelerated backwards in the perfect circular path that you want it to stay on.
NOW ..do that and tell me how hard it is to rotate your hips....circular top, slight shift and circular bottom.....makes a lot of sense to me
Scap loading is a nice observation compared to counter -rotation but the hand cocking cue gets it done and can replace scap load for teaching IMHO as far as terminlogy.
THere is a brain link from hands to hips. When you load the hands the hips feel like they need to get out of the way and it triggers them to coil AS YOU STRIDE and there is no over stride with a negative hand and hip move occurring. There is no doubt in my mind watching Ted Williams that he was a hands and hips trigger guy. You cannot coach the shoulders easily and I see no need to do it.
Have you seen the Ted Williams gif at Shawns site?? http://s6.invisionfree.com/Hitting/index.php?showtopic=240&st=0&#last
Absolute confirmation....of hips and hands cocking . The rear elbow stays down and there is little scap loading and he is generating amzing bat speed in ths cliip with a half swing
Swingbuster:
Thanks for the explanation. I think I'm getting closer. One question: In paragraph 3 you say the rear elbow works up. In your last paragraph describing the Williams gif you say his rear elbow stays down. Does this have to do with the clip being a "half swing" or am I missing something? Thanks.
Thanks for the explanation. I think I'm getting closer. One question: In paragraph 3 you say the rear elbow works up. In your last paragraph describing the Williams gif you say his rear elbow stays down. Does this have to do with the clip being a "half swing" or am I missing something? Thanks.
Sounds like a bonified deal Swingbuster!
Can't wait to see outcome this season. The list never ends the way it begins-LOL
So many things can and do happen year in and year out.
Good job that way ole boy! Several older scouts tell me this all the time. Guess I'm getting old enough now to pass on the same statement of thanks to you. Hope your not older than I am-LOL
Shep Cares
PS(Would appreciate update on the younger brother of above mentioned as well. Would be greatly appreciated by all.)
Can't wait to see outcome this season. The list never ends the way it begins-LOL
So many things can and do happen year in and year out.
Good job that way ole boy! Several older scouts tell me this all the time. Guess I'm getting old enough now to pass on the same statement of thanks to you. Hope your not older than I am-LOL
Shep Cares
PS(Would appreciate update on the younger brother of above mentioned as well. Would be greatly appreciated by all.)
quote:In your last paragraph describing the Williams gif you say his rear elbow stays down. Does this have to do with the clip being a "half swing" or am I missing something? Thanks.
I think Wiiliam's full swing would have a higher elbow. He is doing the pitching equivalent of glide to stride. He is just smoothing a few IMO.
The lead elbow is very important. If you wanted to hit somebody in the face with the lead elbow you would pull it down by you side with thumb in hitch hicker position and stride and externally rotate it up into their face and the thumb would turn flat. You could not externally rotate it until you internally rotated it. You would not start with it up . That is what hitters are trying to do.Ted did not and he was decent
The cue is still bottom hand works under top, tuck /coil hips, stride/uncoil , hands turn over in plane and torso jettisons shoulders and their momentum sequences the arms, wrist , hands. Ted did not and he was decent
Play pepper like this and the kinetic chaining momentum will rotate you through to the finish.
the descriptions of how much effort is envolved in rotation makes me tired. It doesn't have to be a labor IMO.
quote:is still bottom hand works under top, tuck /coil hips, stride/uncoil , hands turn over in plane and torso jettisons shoulders and their momentum sequences the arms, wrist , hands.
Swingbuster, this is very advanced and excellent hitting advice here. You are good.
Keep it coming!
Shep's listening
Just to add to the terms we could lose...
Coaches who say "get the hands out" when a hitter is late and "keep those hands back" when they're early...often on consecutive pitches...
That and "stay on top, hit the top half, down to the ball" and all other variations.
Coaches who say "get the hands out" when a hitter is late and "keep those hands back" when they're early...often on consecutive pitches...
That and "stay on top, hit the top half, down to the ball" and all other variations.
I was never one for analyzing. KISS Keep it simple stupid. So see the ball hit it. (hitters) throw strikes(pitchers) get an out (fielders)
lol...I am with ya will....the older I get the more I realize that there are no absolutes in this great game. That is why we can get on here and argue....oops, I mean discuss, all of these different types of swings and mech. And, yes you can find great hitters in MLB that do hit almost any way you want to teach it.
