The 4 P's

As you may know I am also a trainer of new umpires (so is MST)....and I am big proponent of teaching the 4P's and if you dont mind I will steal the added C as well....

I happened to have my game journal with me so I was able to review my EJs to come up with an answer...

yes but seldom... since 2001 I have ejected only 2 for either of these...

1 for Persistant- The coach came out between the next inning and wanted to re-argue his point...I permitted it once....but he came back a third time...

1 for Prolonged- we discussed the call... longer than we should have... and then we got to a point where he was just not letting the game get back underway...

Im not known for fast ejections or even numerous ejections, but both of these were valid EJ'S....

Yea, it's called repeating oneself.

Im just not following you here refump.....can you elaborate on your response?

As a HS coach for 13 years I have only been tossed once and it was for a 'prolonged' argument. At the time I couldn't believe I was tossed when I never raised my voice or used any profanity. Here is the senerio: Our pitcher gets called for a balk by the BU and I go out to get an explanation. He can't and doesn't give me an straight answer and says "it just didn't look right coach". He preceeds to tell me that "you can't argue a balk coach" and I say I just want an explanation. At this point the PU walks out and says "coach he explained it to you now take a seat" my response was "actually no I never got an explanation and how do you know what he said to me anyway" The PU then says "thats it coach no more or your done" and I said "for what!" and I get rung. Was I just or would you guys have done the same?

quote:

prolonged, persistent.

You can eliminate the above once a coach starts repeating himself!

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Originally posted by Tangents23:
As a HS coach for 13 years I have only been tossed once and it was for a 'prolonged' argument. At the time I couldn't believe I was tossed when I never raised my voice or used any profanity.

Neither profanity nor yelling need be present to qualify for an ejection.

quote:

Here is the senerio: Our pitcher gets called for a balk by the BU and I go out to get an explanation. He can't and doesn't give me an straight answer and says "it just didn't look right coach".

You got an explanation. It wasn't a very good one, but an explanation nevertheless. You should have no expectation that repeated questions will result in anything different other than an ejection for not knowing when to leave.

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He preceeds to tell me that "you can't argue a balk coach" and I say I just want an explanation.

Coaches/managers are entitled to know what balk is being called. They are not entitled to argue the umpire's judgment that the balk occurred. And again, you did get an explanation, just not one you liked or, for that matter was appropriate.

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At this point the PU walks out and says "coach he explained it to you now take a seat" my response was "actually no I never got an explanation and how do you know what he said to me anyway"

BU should have minded his own business and you should not have realized that you were not going to get a different explanation than what you had received so far and left the field.

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The PU then says "thats it coach no more or your done" and I said "for what!" and I get rung.

You weren't listening very well. He said "no more" and you gave him more.

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Was I just or would you guys have done the same?

I would never call a balk that I could not identiry as a balk by rule. I always offer an explantation of the balk call to the skipper and I do not set up skippers with the old "one more and your done."

So, no, I guess I would not have handled it in the same manner.
1

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You should have no expectation that repeated questions will result in anything different other than an ejection for not knowing when to leave.

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Tangents23

You should no better than to get into a thread with Jimmy03. Jimmy knows baseball! If you keep it up you'll be ejected from the thread as well.

a highly respected umpire authority (CC) has a theory that many ejections can be traced back to an umpire error...

In your case, I believe it to be true...the first error was the balk call that can not be substantiated by a rule...it may have been a balk but when you cant explain it, you shouldnt call it...managers deserve an explanation...

Jimmy nailed the second one, and that was the "one more and you are gone".....this umpire painted himself in a corner...and the ejection inevitably followed...ultimatums...are not sound umpire judgment...

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Originally posted by piaa_ump:
a highly respected umpire authority (CC) has a theory that many ejections can be traced back to an umpire error...

I believe 25% of ejections begin with an umpire error in applying a rule and 25% begin with an umpire making an unpopular judgment call.

At the same time, nearly 100% end with a coach, usually an assistant coach, choosing to act inappropriately.

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Coaches/managers are entitled to know what balk is being called. They are not entitled to argue the umpire's judgment that the balk occurred. And again, you did get an explanation, just not one you liked or, for that matter was appropriate.

If coaches are entitled to know what balk was called, then how did Tangents23 get an explanation? It doesn't sound to me as if "it didn't look right, coach" is an explanation of which balk was called.

Rob... YOUR OUTTA HERE!

Sorry, I couldn't resist. I've always wanted to say that!

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Originally posted by Rob Kremer:

quote:

Coaches/managers are entitled to know what balk is being called. They are not entitled to argue the umpire's judgment that the balk occurred. And again, you did get an explanation, just not one you liked or, for that matter was appropriate.

If coaches are entitled to know what balk was called, then how did Tangents23 get an explanation? It doesn't sound to me as if "it didn't look right, coach" is an explanation of which balk was called.

He got the explanation offered by the umpire. Again, it was not a good one, no argument there. In fact, it sucked. But it was obviously the only one offered.

At that point a coach has a choice to make. Walk away or stay and risk an ejection.

Why would a good coach put himself in the position to let a poor umpire eject him?

So, Jimmy03, I'm trying to follow your reasoning:

You say a coach deserves an explanation. But apparently ANY explanation given by an ump qualifies. No matter how ridiculous the explanation is, the coach is in the wrong if he challenges it further.

So, a coach could ask for an explanation of which balk the pitcher committed (which you said the coach is entitled to.) The ump could say: "An Angel of Paradise floated down and told me he balked."

By your standard, that is the end of it. It was "an explanation offered by the umpire."

That's not much of an "entitlement."

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"it just didn't look right coach".

Many moons ago I got tossed when my pitcher was called for a balk. The explanation I got was that it looked funny. I mentioned to the umpire that there were all kinds of things in the rule book explaining a balk nothing about looking funny. I got tossed.

I was under the notion then and now that you can protest a game if a rule is mis interpreted. I protested the game citing that the umpire misinterpretd the rule or in this case made up a new interpretation of a balk looking funny. Of course I got nowhere.

My advice to an umpire if you blow it fix it or at least make up something to cover your butt.

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Originally posted by Rob Kremer:
So, Jimmy03, I'm trying to follow your reasoning:

You say a coach deserves an explanation. But apparently ANY explanation given by an ump qualifies. No matter how ridiculous the explanation is, the coach is in the wrong if he challenges it further.

So, a coach could ask for an explanation of which balk the pitcher committed (which you said the coach is entitled to.) The ump could say: "An Angel of Paradise floated down and told me he balked."

By your standard, that is the end of it. It was "an explanation offered by the umpire."

That's not much of an "entitlement."

no it clearly isnt...yet unless the umpire knows the rules correctly and explains it well, then that is what you get....for better or worse..

Ill give you a poor example...

I went to a game to watch a friends son pitch...the umpire called a balk on the opposing pitcher, his explanation was that the pitcher did not come to a complete stop before throwing over to first on a pick off attempt.... good conscise explanation...with one exception.....its not a balk...

This last one is the worst...and that is those umpires who do not believe that a manager deserves any explanation at all...Fortunately like the dinosaurs, they are fairly extinct

many years ago, I worked with a very experienced umpire, (college and Milb)....he refused to explain any calls....he would say its aganst the rules, get a rule book and look it up....as you can imagine many ejections would follow....

fortunately those types are mostly retired now...

bad explanations, and no explanantions.....

whats worse...

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Originally posted by Will:

quote:

"it just didn't look right coach".

Many moons ago I got tossed when my pitcher was called for a balk. The explanation I got was that it looked funny. I mentioned to the umpire that there were all kinds of things in the rule book explaining a balk nothing about looking funny. I got tossed.

.

Will,

I have been trying to find out the origin of that comment, since that is not the first time i had heard it....

"If it looks funny its probably illegal..."

its been around a long time and in it, there is probably some modicum of truth, but it was meant to direct the umpire to the rules to find the applicable point and not to be an explanation for calling a balk....

I would like very much to find out its origin, since it needs to be disputed...since the rule book covers all 31 or so balkable offenses...you need not rely on such a weak crutch to determine if it is a balk or not....

Today, we have a large amount of resources to teach and learn the balk rules...they are balk specific...and very thorough....

PIAA ump

with all due respect to umpires. coaches and teams work all and when a kid does something wrong tell me what he did. Make something up and i will go sit down. dont tell me it looked funny. It looked funny because?

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Originally posted by Rob Kremer:
So, Jimmy03, I'm trying to follow your reasoning:

You say a coach deserves an explanation. But apparently ANY explanation given by an ump qualifies. No matter how ridiculous the explanation is, the coach is in the wrong if he challenges it further.

So, a coach could ask for an explanation of which balk the pitcher committed (which you said the coach is entitled to.) The ump could say: "An Angel of Paradise floated down and told me he balked."

By your standard, that is the end of it. It was "an explanation offered by the umpire."

That's not much of an "entitlement."

We are in agreement that the umpire in the OP and in my examples did not provide the coach with an appropriate explanation. But let's not start a battle over semantics. It is still an explanation, as poor as it is.

I'm tryng to speak from a practical standpoint. Sometimes, it is what is. The umpire in the OP gave the explanation he had. What good does it do to demand something from someone they do not have?

Repeating a question over and over that has been answered. even with a ****** answere, is not going to end well.

On the other end of the spectrum, I've seen this behavior from a coach even when given the correct answer.

"What'd he do?"

Started and stopped.

"Explain that."

He started he motion to home, then stopped.

"I need a better explanation."

I've given you the correct explanation of the violation of the rule.

"It doesn't make sense...I mean, what did he do?"

We're done here, coach. We need to get the game going.

"Oh, so no I don't get to ask a question?"

You've asked, I answered. Time to go back to your dugout.

"That's horsesh!t. I'm allowed to ask for an explanation of a balk. You can't just like God out here and do what you want to do. You're just horrible."

Boom.

The point is: Take the esplanaton, good, bad, indifferent and realize that decisions you make next may well determine whether you see the rest of the game from the dugout or the parking lot.

I am not endorsing bad umpires, bad calls or bad explanations. I'm acxcepting the fact that they do, unfortunately exist. (And I've discovered from reading some coaches' posts at this site that perhaps they exist in larger quantities than I once thought.)

At the same time, some coaches display the same behavior regardless of the explanation.

Again, it is what is.

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Originally posted by Will:
PIAA ump

with all due respect to umpires. coaches and teams work all and when a kid does something wrong tell me what he did. Make something up and i will go sit down. dont tell me it looked funny. It looked funny because?

If you are asking for a demonstration, no umpire should ever do that.

Accept the fact the some umpires cannot give you want you want. In the end, you'll be happier.

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If you are asking for a demonstration, no umpire should ever do that.

Accept the fact the some umpires cannot give you want you want. In the end, you'll be happier.

so as a coach I am not entitled to an explanation of an interpretation of a rule? So I can go out ask a question about something and basically be told nothing?

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Originally posted by Will:
[QUOTE]

so as a coach I am not entitled to an explanation of an interpretation of a rule? So I can go out ask a question about something and basically be told nothing?

We are repeating ourselves coach.

You are entitled to an explanation. In the OP the umpire gave an explanation. It was a terrible explanation. But, it was an explanation. The coach got what the umpire was capable of offering.

You may not get the explanation you want. You get the best explanation the umpire can give. That's life. Some umpires give great explanations. Some give crummy explanation. I can't do anything about that and neither can you.

Neither of us can instantly creat a better umpire with a better undestanding of the rule and better communication skills.

This goes beyond what you are entitled to. You can't get what someone doesn't have.

So you get to decide. Accdept the fact that this is as good as you're going to get from this guy and go sit down, or stay out and demand something you are not going to get and risk ejection.

It's up to you.

quote:

Originally posted by Will:
PIAA ump

with all due respect to umpires. coaches and teams work all and when a kid does something wrong tell me what he did. Make something up and i will go sit down. dont tell me it looked funny. It looked funny because?

As a trainer I would never, ever tell an umpire to "make something up"....that is never a good idea...


all you have is your personal ethics...all it would take is one coach to confirm you BS'd him and from that point on your word and judgment is suspect...

At risk of violating the "persistant" rule, it seems to me that what you are calling an explanation isn't really one at all.

If the coach is really entitled to know what balk was called, then the explanation should actually identify what balk was called. Saying "it didn't look right" doesn't in any way specify what balk was called.

Therefore I can only assume that you don't really mean that a coach is entitled to know what balk was called.

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Originally posted by Rob Kremer:
At risk of violating the "persistant" rule, it seems to me that what you are calling an explanation isn't really one at all.

If the coach is really entitled to know what balk was called, then the explanation should actually identify what balk was called. Saying "it didn't look right" doesn't in any way specify what balk was called.

Therefore I can only assume that you don't really mean that a coach is entitled to know what balk was called.

You know what happens when you assume.

You assume wrong. A coach IS entitled to an explanation from the umpire who called the balk. Again, in the OP the umpire gave the only explanation he had. Again, I know you want a BETTER explanatjon, but it is obvious, as unfortuntate as it is, that that was the best that particular umpire could do. Am I happy that he is that incompetent, NO. But c'mon, facr reality, if that is all he's got, that is all he can give.

This is why there is an ejection for "Prolonged". If you can't accept reality you will be on the field all day trying to change something that can't be changed.

It's not as if he capable of more but is holding back. He, for whatever reason, called a balk because something "looked funny." That was his honest to God reason. When asked, he gave the same explanation.

I know you don't like his explanation, but you have no RIGHT to an explanation you like. You have a right to the explanation he is capable of.

Now, time to move coach, this has taken too long, we are repeating ourselves and the game needs to get going. Either accept living in the real world, or enjoy your fantasy world where you get what you want on the bus.

Jimmy,
I agree with what you are saying. My problem was that I got rung by the PU who ASSUMED he knew what my discussion with the BU consisted of. He then gave me an ultimatum without ever hearing what I had to say. As a good ump do you always assume that you partner handled things appropriately?

quote:

Originally posted by Tangents23:
Jimmy,
I agree with what you are saying. My problem was that I got rung by the PU who ASSUMED he knew what my discussion with the BU consisted of. He then gave me an ultimatum without ever hearing what I had to say. As a good ump do you always assume that you partner handled things appropriately?

I never assume anything. But I don't go sticking my nose in my partner's business unless I'm invited or he has ejected a coach and that coach won't leave, or an assistant has joined in and there's a two on one going on.

One exception. I my parnter has misinterpted a rule, I will find a way to get his attention and provide the correct interpretation. I won't interfere with judgment calls, but rules have to be right.

Well, Jimmy, I am only assuming what your position makes clear. The ump gave no explanation of what balk the pitcher committed. If that suffices for an explanation, then the coach indeed is not entitled to an explanation.

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Originally posted by Rob Kremer:
Well, Jimmy, I am only assuming what your position makes clear. The ump gave no explanation of what balk the pitcher committed. If that suffices for an explanation, then the coach indeed is not entitled to an explanation.

(Sigh)

There are good explanations. There are terrible explanations. Both are explanations.

This is a reality in the classroom, at the workplace and on the baseball field. If you always get the explanations you want in life, your are an extraodinary human being.

Unfortunately, we have seen an excellent example of a prolonged discussion.

Y'all have wonderful summer.

Rob,
I'll ask a rhetorical question. Why is a coach entitled to an explanation?

There's really only one reason-- on calls involving the interpretation of a rule, a coach is entitled to an explanation in case the rule has been wrongly applied, and a protest is in the offing. A counter example would be a runner thrown out at first base, but called safe. The rule is so simple that no explanation is required, and while a coach may be aggravated by a wrong call, he can't do anything about it.

In Oregon, I believe, protests in HS aren't allowed. So really an Oregon coach isn't entitled to an explanation, because there is no useful action to take employing the explanation. A coach has to live with an umpire's decision of judgement or interpretation.

In games where protests are allowed, a coach in entitled to an explanation. He also is entitled to, for example, a consistent and correct strike zone. Sometimes the umpire can't deliver. In those cases, the best course of action is to try to outplay the opponent, and make any bad calls irrelevant.

For sure, demanding that an umpire perform at a level higher than his capability is futile.

Guys, I'm not an umpire, but since there are so many different ways for a pitcher to balk (31??!!), wouldn’t it be a good idea for an umpire to cite “chapter and verse” when making this call? How about - “That’s a balk!” Then give an explanation - “The pitcher didn’t pause prior to coming home.” Clear, concise, and everyone in the ball park knows what was called and why. Coaches will still complain, but at least you'd eliminate the "why did you make that call" questions.

3FG:

A coach is entitled to know what rule was violated. In addition to any protest possibility, it helps him to know what his pitcher is doing wrong to prevent future occurences.

I have no issue with that. My mechanic, in high school ball, is "Time!(hands up) That's a balk (pointing at pitcher)....didn't come set. (or whatever the violation was)

The discussion here is what does one do when the umpire is incapable of a good explanation. When you have an umpire who calls a balk because the pitcher "does something funny" and he believes that's reason for a balk, why would a coach expect a better explanation? Obviously, if that's why the balk was called, that's the explanation.

I endured this thread solely on the premise that a coach would not wish to be ejected. My advice has gone to that goal. Accept the explanation, as terrible as it may be (you don't have to agree with it) and don't engage in a prolonged situation in which you expect something the umpire is incapable of giving.

Now, if my premise is incorrect, and coaches enjoy being ejected, then by all means, coaches should stay out, ignore what the umpire has offered and demand a better explanation until you get one you're happy with.

In my state, if you do that twice in a season, you are ineligible to coach the rest of the season. But hey, whatever makes the coach happy.

Please note 3FG, this is not directed at you, but at coaches in general.

Jimmy I understand where you are coming from and - like you - not fond of the explanation but it is what it is. I have never convinced an umpire he was wrong he clueless so unless I'm just grumpy I'm heading back to the dugout.

Actually though I will see about 99% of the balks called against us. I just step out of the dugout and ask "didn't come set?" and they confirm it. Done and over with. If I'm playing against a team who has a pitcher do something funny I will ask them between innings if he's balking or not and then tell them what I think he's doing. To their credit I believe every ump has told me something to the effect of "coach it does look funny but I can't quite see a violation yet. I'm looking and if I see one I'll balk it but right now it just looks funny". Good enough for me.

But that being said the balk is the one rule that is not quite enforced enough and that includes my pitchers. The biggest problem is the pause before delivery not happening. I don't think it's called enough.

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You can't get what someone doesn't have.

Well if you don't have it dont call it???

sorry to be so persistent but it always amazes me that an umpire can stink up the place and he can toss a coach. Now coaches deserve to get tossed if they cross the line but that line is determined by? I once got tossed by an umpire who made a call at first base. i objected mildly and said "that was terrible" I returned to the coaching box to have the home plate umpire tell me I was ejected. I asked the base ump why?he said I said HE was terrible. I never said he. I get tossed i am suspended for a game and a report goes to my AD and principal. Why? because not only does he see things he hears things.

What recourse do i have? None. Your suspended a game your AD and principal asks you all kinds of questions what happened etc etc. The umpire collects his fee and you see him doing a playoff game. Oh well

I did it for close to 30 years and what i described was the exception rather than the rule but when it happens you remember.

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Originally posted by JeNeSaisQuoi:
Guys, I'm not an umpire, but since there are so many different ways for a pitcher to balk (31??!!), wouldn’t it be a good idea for an umpire to cite “chapter and verse” when making this call? How about - “That’s a balk!” Then give an explanation - “The pitcher didn’t pause prior to coming home.” Clear, concise, and everyone in the ball park knows what was called and why. Coaches will still complain, but at least you'd eliminate the "why did you make that call" questions.

No where near 31....I don't have my books with me but, it's more like 13.

And yes, umpires should cite the reason as they make the call. It is now the required mechanic in MiLB.

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Originally posted by Will:

quote:

You can't get what someone doesn't have.

Well if you don't have it dont call it???

sorry to be so persistent but it always amazes me that an umpire can stink up the place and he can toss a coach. Now coaches deserve to get tossed if they cross the line but that line is determined by? I once got tossed by an umpire who made a call at first base. i objected mildly and said "that was terrible" I returned to the coaching box to have the home plate umpire tell me I was ejected. I asked the base ump why?he said I said HE was terrible. I never said he. I get tossed i am suspended for a game and a report goes to my AD and principal. Why? because not only does he see things he hears things.

What recourse do i have? None. Your suspended a game your AD and principal asks you all kinds of questions what happened etc etc. The umpire collects his fee and you see him doing a playoff game. Oh well

I did it for close to 30 years and what i described was the exception rather than the rule but when it happens you remember.

No argument. If an umpire doesn;t know why its a balk, he should learn before he calls it.

That wasn't the topic.

The topic was regarding the realities AFTER a balk is called.

Regarding your other point...I take no responsibility for any umpire I did not train. Sorry. Are you going to take responsibility for all the coaches who do not know how to behave in public? Of course not.

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Regarding your other point...I take no responsibility for any umpire I did not train. Sorry. Are you going to take responsibility for all the coaches who do not know how to behave in public? Of course not.

If asking a question is behaving badly I am guilty.

Have you guys finished flogging the dead horse? Turn this around (happened today). What if you have a coach repeatedly yelling "That's a balk" on the opposing pitcher and you don't see one. You tell him and he keeps it up. You warn him and he keeps yelling after each pitch. Boom. He's gone. The sissy fit afterwards was a classic. He left when warned that his team would forfeit if he didn't leave the field.

Point being, some coaches think they know it all and they don't. Also, umpires don't know it all either. Otherwise, they'd be in the Majors.

Many years ago I got tossed, my pitcher, in the first inning, is throwing a lot of close "balls" he asks the UIC for a new ball. The umpire tells him he'll have to pitch with that one as he won't give him a new ball, my "LEFTY" pitcher mumbles somthing under his breath and gets tossed. The catcher asks what did he to get tossed and also gets tossed. I ask what did he say and am told "one more word and your gone". I say "But Mr. Umpire" and get tossed. As an aside I now am in the same chapter as "Mr. Umpire" Also my pitcher gets drafted and scouts were at the game.