The Academic Index

The Ivies do not give merit-based scholarship money.

They do not give athletic scholarship money.

They give need-based scholarship money.

Correct no Ivy merit. But very intersting on what need can end up as.

These are merit based some even give grants instead of loans, and claim to meet 100% of student financial needs.

just more than one way to play baseball in college.

http://www.cappex.com/blog/unc...-100-financial-need/

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This is something more folks should know about. They been told its about grades, this is how it's measured. More money in merit than athletics, if you can get in, and if a coach wants you...

The Academic Index

http://www.collegeconfidential.com/academic_index.htm

showme,

I'm well aware of how Ivy AI works, admission and Ivy FA policies. I remember when the AI used to include class rank in their formula a couple years ago. Are you aware of other schools using their own AI policy for Admission to evaluate recruits? I know NESCAC uses bands which is similiar but not quite the same. What other schools are you aware of that are using something like an AI? Thanks.

BTW....THere are multiple threads on this topic that our readers can search on. I've "preached" multiple times that it is well worth the effort to consider Ivys generous need based FA. My point is to not cross them off the list, let them prove to you what they can make it affordable or not affordable. If they come back to you with something that won't work, THEN cross them off. But, do the due dillgence.

fenwaysouth your knowledge on this is more than mine.

I'm stumbling through this for the first time, learning as I go, it does appear that low admission rate schools under 30% seem to use some variation of AI.

Huge list of these types of schools, not just Ivies, but the new Ivies, yada yada...even schools that will not give loans because they don't want the graduate to have debt.

It's never been better to have grades and want to play baseball.

quote:

Originally posted by fenwaysouth:

quote:

This is something more folks should know about. They been told its about grades, this is how it's measured. More money in merit than athletics, if you can get in, and if a coach wants you...

The Academic Index

http://www.collegeconfidential.com/academic_index.htm

showme,

I'm well aware of how Ivy AI works, admission and Ivy FA policies. I remember when the AI used to include class rank in their formula a couple years ago. Are you aware of other schools using their own AI policy for Admission to evaluate recruits? I know NESCAC uses bands which is similiar but not quite the same. What other schools are you aware of that are using something like an AI? Thanks.

BTW....THere are multiple threads on this topic that our readers can search on. I've "preached" multiple times that it is well worth the effort to consider Ivys generous need based FA. My point is to not cross them off the list, let them prove to you what they can make it affordable or not affordable. If they come back to you with something that won't work, THEN cross them off. But, do the due dillgence.

Fenway, you are absolutely correct.

In practice, some families get caught up in the timing. As also noted in many threads, lots of D1 school offer early and the recruit has a pretty good idea where he will stand financially. With the Ivies, you can't be sure about the acceptance or need-based aid until November if the player is an early action/decision candidate, or April otherwise.

The comfort of a verbal to a non-Ivy school is way better than the words of an Ivy coach who says he thinks he can get you in and he thinks you will qualify for a lot of need-based aid.

Those are just the risks of the recruiting process. Verbals aren't sure things until the NLI is signed (November). Ivy early decision is November too. Ivy regular admission is April.

Anyway.........I agree with your basic point not to automatically cross off the Ivies because of cost

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The comfort of a verbal to a non-Ivy school is way better than the words of an Ivy coach who says he thinks he can get you in and he thinks you will qualify for a lot of need-based aid.

Its not that complicated or unsure. My son was told by the HC to go to the schools website to get an idea about the cost to attend i.e. http://www.dartmouth.edu/cgi-b...rap/~finaid/dfce.cgi

I would guess most of the schools have a similiar calculator if not exactly the same

Fenway,

I appreciate all of the information that you have posted about Ivy admission and Ivy financial aid. When we first started looking at colleges we were focused only on state schools because of the cost involved and concerns about the admissions process. As we continue to really focus on finding the best fit for our son, it seems apparant that an Ivy or high academic school may be the best fit.

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Originally posted by CollegeParentNoMore:

quote:

The comfort of a verbal to a non-Ivy school is way better than the words of an Ivy coach who says he thinks he can get you in and he thinks you will qualify for a lot of need-based aid.

Its not that complicated or unsure. My son was told by the HC to go to the schools website to get an idea about the cost to attend i.e. http://www.dartmouth.edu/cgi-b...rap/~finaid/dfce.cgi

I would guess most of the schools have a similiar calculator if not exactly the same

You are correct that those calculators are useful.

Let me try to state my point a different way. Let's say we have a 2014 grad. In October of 2012 he gets a verbal from a non-Ivy and a serious indication of interest from an Ivy.

The non-Ivy coach can give better assurance about acceptance, athletic money and merit money, if any, than the Ivy coach can give about acceptance and any attendant need-based money.

There are risks in both situations. The non-Ivy verbal can fall through. The Ivy expression of interest can dissipate. I think the risk is greater in the Ivy situation.

This is not intended to dissuade anyone from taking this risk. It is absolutely true that if a student is accepted to an Ivy there are generous need-based awards available. So, truly needy families should not be put off by the posted tuition, room and board numbers of the Ivies.

Each family has its own risk-reward tolerances and knowing all the facts can probably make the best decision for its own particular situation

Green Light, I disagree based upon my son's experience:

No D1 coach can make any promise or projection of anything other then athletic money.


At most schools the D1 coach has no control/input over acceptance and must await the results of the admissions process. Many coaches can get the process sped up, but I would venture to guess the best a coach can do if your son is rejected to try applying again with a different major as suggested by the coach.

The reality is that at most D1 schools your son's SAT score will not get him on the baseball team unless he can play at the D1 level.

I have no doubt that you had the experience you mention. Our family had a different one.

And I have heard from a few 2013s (not in my family) who got non-Ivy offers in late 2011/early 2012 that they had very detailed understandings with the coach about acceptance and how much total money....athletic plus merit....there would be. (Yes, none of this is official until the NLI is signed)

Anyway, this is the Academic Index thread. I was at an Ivy camp recently and in the Q and A session a parent asked about the AI. One Ivy coach said at his school, the entire team has to meet a certain number, meaning one player's high score could offset another player's low score. Another Ivy coach piped up and said, "We don't do it that way".

No further details were divulged and the session went on to the next question.

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Green Light said....There are risks in both situations. The non-Ivy verbal can fall through. The Ivy expression of interest can dissipate. I think the risk is greater in the Ivy situation.

I would agree there are greater overal risks with Ivy but for different reasons that you state. A player may come along that is just as good but has a stronger AI or a player may have the same AI but is a better player. You have to deal with those possibilities from both sides. Typically you don't have to deal with that dynamic with most D1 schools. I've worked with a few posters here on Ivy recruitment, and I've described that time between verbal commitment and LL or ED acceptance as a "leap of faith". It really can be, but it is no different than D3 schools in that regard.

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Green Light said....Each family has its own risk-reward tolerances and knowing all the facts can probably make the best decision for its own particular situation

I totally 100% agree with that. Most folks that I know curently playing Ivy baseball (or about to) have passed on earlier D1 offers to wait for an Ivy offer. It is absolutley one of the most difficult decisions (gut wrenching!) a family or recruit makes. It will make you swallow hard for a few months.

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Originally posted by fenwaysouth:
I totally 100% agree with that. Most folks that I know curently playing Ivy baseball (or about to) have passed on earlier D1 offers to wait for an Ivy offer. It is absolutley one of the most difficult decisions (gut wrenching!) a family or recruit makes. It will make you swallow hard for a few months.

I have been on the other side of this with my son, were he accepted a significant athletic scholarship (at a non-Ivy League school) offered in the summer with a time limit, and turned down the Ivy League schools that were following him. If he has pursued the Ivies it would have involved waiting until the fall for an admissions decision.

Though the Ivy recruiting process is quite different from that of other DI schools, it is speeding up and at least some Ivy coaches (in my son's experience) are reportedly looking for verbal commitments earlier and earlier in the process.

Of course the recruit's AI needs to be run up the Admissions Dept flagpole first (and saluted), but it is possible to hear an enthusiastic "We want you here at X!" in the middle of your son's junior year.

I am hearing the Ivies are getting earlier and earlier too, but this is all talk, can't point to anything specific.

To hear anything you can take to the bank from an Ivy in the middle of junior year (Dec-Feb?) would mean the SAT, two SAT subject tests (this is part of the AI), and probably an AP test or two would have to be completed. That is a tall order, but doable.

THere is no doubt in my mind it is getting earlier and earlier in some aspects, however the dilemna (time & risk between verbal and acceptance) gets bigger. Everything I've seen and heard is that the Ivys are getting even more aggresive in their recruiting because they have to. They have to find a player good enough to get on the field and bright enough to get in. No easy task.

In hindsight, I look at their recruiting practices as a "three big filters" (as described to me by an ivy softball coach). The first is the national showcase players that are good enough and have any chance of getting in. He said he'd see a thousand kids in a week and possibly 50 fit that description. The second filter is the ones that want to go there....he estimated 10-15 of those 50 may be seriously interested in going there. So, the last filter is Admissions and they look at things much differently than how the coach stack ranks his players. This is where understanding the AI is so absolutely essential for a recruit. To know if you are border line, middle or high AI along with your baseball skills can give you a really good idea where you sit. For example...if you throw 92mph with an AI of 220, you're pretty much in. You will have made your coach and admissions committee very happy.

I think the "first filter" and "second filter" are getting earlier and earlier but the "last filter" is the same. They will keep the Likely Letter close to or near the Fall NLI signing day. So while some say the process has moved up, I really don't think so where it really counts. I don't think the serious recruiting happens until right between the 2nd and 3rd filter during the Admissions pre-read. That is where the rubber hits the road, and the coach has to really doing his hard selling. I also think this is the time where the coach loses a lot of quality recruits as birdman14 describes with his son. Because that time between 2nd filter and 3rd filter is a long time. The coach has to keep the recruit on the hook otherwise he may bolt for another program. It is an interesting process.

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To hear anything you can take to the bank from an Ivy in the middle of junior year (Dec-Feb?) would mean the SAT, two SAT subject tests (this is part of the AI), and probably an AP test or two would have to be completed. That is a tall order, but doable.

To be more specific: there is nothing you can take to the bank from an Ivy except an email notifying you that you've been accepted. However, getting a Likely Letter around Oct 1st of your senior year is pretty darn close to "bankable."