Thought provoking. Interesting. Relevant to this message board.
Big O: Don't treat players like gladiators
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justbb,
Thank you for posting the link.
I did a quick review of the Big O article and he makes very valid points, with solid recommendations for change.
However, since the NCAA won't allow a college player use an agent, and will even make a fight over getting legal advice, to assess draft and MLB contract issues, it seems a major uphill battle to think the NCAA would afford the student athlete the right to have an attorney to advise on scholarship issues/discipline/loss of schollie and the like.
I also quickly perused the article by Nancy Hogshead-Maker on tying "Money to Values."
Boy, is her assessment thought provoking. As I read it, she is talking about athletics raising the revenue, like the BCS/TV/etc, but the money being allocated based on academic type success/failure rather than athletics and success on the field/court being the basis.
Some of her concepts:
"The NCAA and conferences should replace win-loss records as a determining factor in revenue distribution with demonstrated educational values...
Intercollegiate athletics programs should be required to justify their expenditures annually, tying them to educational outcomes."
Fascinating...the better academic and value results, the the more athletic money earned.
Heck, here we are discussing educational institutions and her comments sound, and probably will be viewed by many, as so radical???
Thank you for posting the link.
I did a quick review of the Big O article and he makes very valid points, with solid recommendations for change.
However, since the NCAA won't allow a college player use an agent, and will even make a fight over getting legal advice, to assess draft and MLB contract issues, it seems a major uphill battle to think the NCAA would afford the student athlete the right to have an attorney to advise on scholarship issues/discipline/loss of schollie and the like.
I also quickly perused the article by Nancy Hogshead-Maker on tying "Money to Values."
Boy, is her assessment thought provoking. As I read it, she is talking about athletics raising the revenue, like the BCS/TV/etc, but the money being allocated based on academic type success/failure rather than athletics and success on the field/court being the basis.
Some of her concepts:
"The NCAA and conferences should replace win-loss records as a determining factor in revenue distribution with demonstrated educational values...
Intercollegiate athletics programs should be required to justify their expenditures annually, tying them to educational outcomes."
Fascinating...the better academic and value results, the the more athletic money earned.
Heck, here we are discussing educational institutions and her comments sound, and probably will be viewed by many, as so radical???
quote:Originally posted by justbaseball:
Thought provoking. Interesting. Relevant to this message board.
Big O: Don't treat players like gladiators
Great article, easy to follow and so sensible, how could the NCAA every take it seriously?
I think what we are seeing with all the anti-negative press the NCAA is getting these days, is the initial ground swell that will eventually result in major change! At least, I hope so even though my son won't see it.
The SI-CNN article linked by infielddad is a puzzler to me. The narrative doesn't fit with the rules, or at least my understanding of the rules.
O'Brien says that St Josephs did provide permission to contact, but refused to sign a release, and the release seems to be the main issue keeping him from playing. But a release is only required if the transfer player is exercising the one time transfer exception [14.5.5.2.10(d)] O'Brien had already transferred from a 4 year school after his first year, and so the exception isn't available to him. The release is therefore not useful to him in the framework of the rules.
So evidently, his new school asked for a waiver to the year in residence requirement for transfers. Ordinarily a basketball player, like baseball players, isn't eligible for the one-time exception, even if this is his first transfer, but for graduate students playing basketball (or baseball) the one time exception is allowed provided--among other conditions--that his athletic aid was not renewed at his previous school. However, we can reasonably infer that O'Brien still had a scholarship at St Josephs. So there are two reasons not to grant the waiver: 1) he had already transferred before, and 2) St Josephs had committed athletic aid to him for his 5th year.
The criteria that the NCAA uses to evaluate waiver requests for transfer graduate students are not published. Nor is it clear that a standard complete set of criteria exists. So it is a matter of conjecture whether the waiver committee would consider the lack of a release to be germane.
I doubt that we will hear the exact circumstances, but I guess that O'Brien's account of the situation misunderstands the reasons the waiver request was denied.
O'Brien says that St Josephs did provide permission to contact, but refused to sign a release, and the release seems to be the main issue keeping him from playing. But a release is only required if the transfer player is exercising the one time transfer exception [14.5.5.2.10(d)] O'Brien had already transferred from a 4 year school after his first year, and so the exception isn't available to him. The release is therefore not useful to him in the framework of the rules.
So evidently, his new school asked for a waiver to the year in residence requirement for transfers. Ordinarily a basketball player, like baseball players, isn't eligible for the one-time exception, even if this is his first transfer, but for graduate students playing basketball (or baseball) the one time exception is allowed provided--among other conditions--that his athletic aid was not renewed at his previous school. However, we can reasonably infer that O'Brien still had a scholarship at St Josephs. So there are two reasons not to grant the waiver: 1) he had already transferred before, and 2) St Josephs had committed athletic aid to him for his 5th year.
The criteria that the NCAA uses to evaluate waiver requests for transfer graduate students are not published. Nor is it clear that a standard complete set of criteria exists. So it is a matter of conjecture whether the waiver committee would consider the lack of a release to be germane.
I doubt that we will hear the exact circumstances, but I guess that O'Brien's account of the situation misunderstands the reasons the waiver request was denied.
Aside from this story, I once shot baskets with the Big O. I was at a convention and he was a speaker. They were setting up a court for him to speak on that included a hoop. He was going through his walk through and shooting some. I walked up and started rebounding for him. He didn't really say a word for a while and then he asked me to shoot some as well. It was really neat. I told him none of my friends would be that I was talking to, rebounding for, and then shooting with the Big O. He asked me if I wanted his autograph. I told him heck no. I wanted to thank him for the chance of a lifetime.
Coach,
Best basketball player...ever???
I think I know justbaseball's view.
Smart too. Really presents a player positioned perspective on the NCAA.
Best basketball player...ever???
I think I know justbaseball's view.
Smart too. Really presents a player positioned perspective on the NCAA.
I have met (sort of) the Big O twice. Once while in college, I stopped by his seat in the front row at a UC game and asked for his autograph on a game program. He easily and graciously signed it.
The other time was many years later...had my kids with me back in Cincinnati and at a bball game. After the game, we were down on the floor and we walked over and introduced ourselves. Again, he was very gracious, friendly, engaging with the kids...and signed more autographs for them.
To me, he's a good guy. And yes, to me (with 100% due respect to Michael Jordan and others), the greatest player of all time. A player at least 30 years ahead of his time.
And this...is my favorite sports photo of all time and a framed print of it hangs in my office.
The other time was many years later...had my kids with me back in Cincinnati and at a bball game. After the game, we were down on the floor and we walked over and introduced ourselves. Again, he was very gracious, friendly, engaging with the kids...and signed more autographs for them.
To me, he's a good guy. And yes, to me (with 100% due respect to Michael Jordan and others), the greatest player of all time. A player at least 30 years ahead of his time.
And this...is my favorite sports photo of all time and a framed print of it hangs in my office.
1971 Bucks...The Big O and Lew "Skyhook" Alcindor! One of my few favorite teams! I believe Oscar is the first and only NBA player to average a TRIPLE DOUBLE!
Two truisms I have learned from a career of attempting to reform institutions:
1) Institutions evolve, over time, in a way such that they cease to serve the ends that they were originally intended to serve, and instead they evolve to serve the elites in the institution itself;
and
2) Institutions NEVER reform from within. It is only outside forces that bring about real structural change.
1) Institutions evolve, over time, in a way such that they cease to serve the ends that they were originally intended to serve, and instead they evolve to serve the elites in the institution itself;
and
2) Institutions NEVER reform from within. It is only outside forces that bring about real structural change.
quote:...and Lew "Skyhook" Alcindor!
I wonder how many folks under age 45(?) will even know who that is without 'googling?'
Is this the "I met Oscar Robertson" reunion? I met Robertson in the Boston Garden visitors locker room with I was a high school soph. I was the point guard on the high school team. A friend was one of the visiting team ballboys. He said he would leave the locker room door unlocked and don't use his name.
A teammate and I walked into the locker room. My kids have bigger bedrooms than the visitors locker room at the old Garden. A trash barrel by the door was filled with bottles of beer, soda and water. Robertson was getting a beer when we walked through the door. He was a great guy. He talked basketball and laughed with us for about ten minutes.
Then some jerk named Alcindor told the attendent to throw us out. Bob Boozer told him to let us stay. Alcindor gave the attendent two printed autograph pictures of himself to give to us and throw us out. We shook Robertson's hand, thanked him, thanked Boozer to trying to stick up for us and left without the pictures.
A teammate and I walked into the locker room. My kids have bigger bedrooms than the visitors locker room at the old Garden. A trash barrel by the door was filled with bottles of beer, soda and water. Robertson was getting a beer when we walked through the door. He was a great guy. He talked basketball and laughed with us for about ten minutes.
Then some jerk named Alcindor told the attendent to throw us out. Bob Boozer told him to let us stay. Alcindor gave the attendent two printed autograph pictures of himself to give to us and throw us out. We shook Robertson's hand, thanked him, thanked Boozer to trying to stick up for us and left without the pictures.
As usual, there's always more to the story than the one the "innocent" victim tells to one media outlet.
Why did Saint Joseph's deny this transfer request?
Why did Saint Joseph's deny this transfer request?
quote:Originally posted by RJM:
As usual, there's always more to the story than the one the "innocent" victim tells to one media outlet.
Why did Saint Joseph's deny this transfer request?
RJM,
I posted the SI article and specifically referenced it into the opinion piece of the Big O and another writer.
There was no painting and the article you have posted, to my reading, does not change much.
The Robertson article supports athletes having lawyers for scholarship issues just like this one.
It supports more NCAA transparency for the player in how decisions get made, just like this one.
Personally, it is intriguing to see the school say we are not commenting because of the privacy rights of the student...who clearly waived any privacy rights.
To me, the issue isn't whether the player is "innocent" or "dirty" or someplace in between.
The issue for me isn't whether he is a "victim" or "attacker."
I thought the article timely in light of the views expressed by Oscar Robertson.
Still do.
From the Oscar Robertson article:
"...student-athletes should be given more financial aid than they currently receive."
Can someone help me understand something? I know baseball players get less-than full scholarships. At least on average with 11.7 for 25+ players.
What about football and basketball? Is it true that they all get full rides?
If that's true, then I would completely disagree with this particular view of Robertson.
"...student-athletes should be given more financial aid than they currently receive."
Can someone help me understand something? I know baseball players get less-than full scholarships. At least on average with 11.7 for 25+ players.
What about football and basketball? Is it true that they all get full rides?
If that's true, then I would completely disagree with this particular view of Robertson.
D1 colleges which compete in the football Bowl Subdivision may provide up to 85 scholarships. Football and basketball (both genders) are so-called head count sports. Any player who gets a scholarship gets a full scholarship. D1 Colleges may provide up to 13 scholarships to male basketball players and 15 to female players. Basketball and football are the only headcount sports for men; women have basketball, volleyball (12), gymnastics (12), and tennis (8).
Okay then, so basically, all D1 football and basketball players are getting full rides.
Then, no, they don't need anymore money.
Then, no, they don't need anymore money.
My post is related to the O'Brien story someone else posted in this thread.quote:Originally posted by infielddad:quote:Originally posted by RJM:
As usual, there's always more to the story than the one the "innocent" victim tells to one media outlet.
Why did Saint Joseph's deny this transfer request?
RJM,
I posted the SI article and specifically referenced it into the opinion piece of the Big O and another writer.
There was no painting and the article you have posted, to my reading, does not change much.
The Robertson article supports athletes having lawyers for scholarship issues just like this one.
It supports more NCAA transparency for the player in how decisions get made, just like this one.
Personally, it is intriguing to see the school say we are not commenting because of the privacy rights of the student...who clearly waived any privacy rights.
To me, the issue isn't whether the player is "innocent" or "dirty" or someplace in between.
The issue for me isn't whether he is a "victim" or "attacker."
I thought the article timely in light of the views expressed by Oscar Robertson.
Still do.
NCAA rules changes I would like to see:
- If a program is penalized due to the coach's actions, he can't leave for a job in a clean program (Calipari comes to mind).
- If a program is penalized due to the coach's actions, if he's already left for a new program he's suspended from coaching (Holtz comes to mind).
- Players who have nothing to do with the program's penalties should be allowed to transfer without penalty.
- If a program is penalized due to the coach's actions, he can't leave for a job in a clean program (Calipari comes to mind).
- If a program is penalized due to the coach's actions, if he's already left for a new program he's suspended from coaching (Holtz comes to mind).
- Players who have nothing to do with the program's penalties should be allowed to transfer without penalty.