THE MATCHUP with CADAD

Got 'Em. This will take a while since I'll have to do it at home. Can't do this during the day. I'll try to get the results out one hitter at a time and keep editing until we've got them all.

Here's the pitchers so we can have it in one place:
AL - Clemens, Martinez, Rivera, Hudson, Pettite.
NL - Johnson, Smoltz, Prior, Gagne, Schilling. The results for each hitter vs. the rest is computed by taking the hitter's results from 1987 through 2004 and subtracting out the results vs. these 10 pitchers.

Bonds:
Roger Clemens 2 0 0 0 0 0 4 2 0 0 0 .000 .714 .000 .714
Pedro Martinez 33 11 3 1 1 3 10 8 2 0 1 .333 .488 .576 1.064
Mariano Rivera 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 1 0 0 0 .000 .000 .000 .000
Tim Hudson 14 6 1 0 2 3 5 0 0 0 1 .429 .550 .929 1.479
Andy Pettitte 2 0 0 0 0 0 1 0 0 0 1 .000 .333 .000 .333
Randy Johnson 49 15 3 0 3 12 11 6 2 0 0 .306 .452 .551 1.003
John Smoltz 60 18 3 0 8 14 18 13 3 2 1 .300 .462 .750 1.212
Mark Prior 0 0 0 0 0 0 2 0 0 0 0 .000 1.000 .000 .000
Eric Gagne 17 5 1 0 1 3 5 5 2 0 0 .294 .478 .529 1.008
Curt Schilling 80 21 4 1 8 21 19 13 1 1 0 .263 .410 .638 1.048
Bonds vs. 10 pitchers = 76 for 258, .295
Bonds vs rest since 87 = 2582 for 8427, .306

Most of these pitchers have faced Bonds more recently when he's been hitting a lot higher. I predict this will be the closest as a result. This one was dominated by the Schilling vs. Bonds battle.

Todd Helton:
Roger Clemens 3 1 0 0 1 1 2 1 0 0 0 .333 .600 1.333 1.933
Pedro Martinez 0 0
Mariano Rivera 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 .000 .000 .000 .000
Tim Hudson 0 0
Andy Pettitte 1 0 0 0 0 1 1 0 0 0 0 .000 .500 .000 .500
Randy Johnson 40 10 4 0 0 2 1 9 1 0 0 .250 .286 .350 .636
John Smoltz 12 4 1 0 0 1 2 3 0 0 1 .333 .429 .417 .845
Mark Prior 11 3 0 0 0 0 2 3 0 0 0 .273 .385 .273 .657
Eric Gagne 26 7 3 0 2 11 2 6 0 0 0 .269 .321 .615 .937
Curt Schilling 52 18 6 0 5 11 4 10 0 0 1 .346 .393 .750 1.143
Helton vs 10 pitchers: 43 for 146, .295
Helton vs rest since 87: 1329 for 3905, .340

A clear win for the pitchers. Looks like Johnson faced him in Arizona and Schilling faced him in Colorado.

Albert Pujols:
Roger Clemens 9 2 0 0 0 0 4 1 0 0 1 .222 .462 .222 .684
Pedro Martinez 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 1 0 0 0 .000 .000 .000 .000
Mariano Rivera 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 .000 1.000 .000 .000
Tim Hudson 4 2 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 .500 .500 .500 1.000
Andy Pettitte 3 0 0 0 0 0 0 1 0 0 0 .000 .000 .000 .000
Randy Johnson 14 7 3 0 2 7 0 3 0 1 0 .500 .500 1.143 1.643
John Smoltz 6 2 0 0 1 2 0 0 0 0 0 .333 .333 .833 1.167
Mark Prior 14 6 1 0 3 3 2 3 0 1 0 .429 .500 1.143 1.643
Eric Gagne 3 1 0 0 0 0 2 0 0 0 0 .333 .600 .333 .933
Curt Schilling 6 1 0 0 0 0 1 1 0 0 1 .167 .286 .167 .452
Pujols vs 10 pitchers - 21 for 60, .350
Pujols vs rest since 87 - 766 for 2303, .333

A win for the hitters, odds were that at least one hitter would happen to do better against this set, even so I'm shocked!

Juan Pierre:
Roger Clemens 6 2 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 .333 .333 .333 .667
Pedro Martinez 0 0
Mariano Rivera 0 0
Tim Hudson 4 2 0 0 0 0 0 1 1 0 0 .500 .500 .500 1.000
Andy Pettite 0 0
Randy Johnson 28 5 0 0 0 2 4 3 6 1 0 .179 .343 .179 .521
John Smoltz 12 3 0 0 0 0 0 2 0 0 1 .250 .250 .250 .500
Mark Prior 11 2 0 0 0 0 0 3 1 0 0 .182 .182 .182 .364
Eric Gagne 20 5 0 0 0 3 0 1 0 1 1 .250 .250 .250 .500
Curt Schilling 39 15 1 0 0 3 1 1 1 1 0 .385 .400 .410 .810
Pierre vs 10 pitchers - 24 for 120, .200
Pierre vs rest since 87 - 835 for 2635, .317

Pierre owns Schilling and it was still total domination for the pitchers. Looks like Schilling just wasn't willing to walk a hitter like Pierre.

Sean Casey (who?):
Roger Clemens 8 2 0 0 0 1 0 0 0 0 1 .250 .222 .250 .472
Pedro Martinez 0 0
Mariano Rivera 0 0
Tim Hudson 0 0
Andy Pettitte 6 3 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 .500 .500 .500 1.000
Randy Johnson 12 3 0 0 0 0 1 4 0 0 0 .250 .308 .250 .558
John Smoltz 14 4 1 0 0 1 1 1 0 0 0 .286 .375 .357 .732
Mark Prior 13 2 0 0 0 2 0 1 0 0 0 .154 .154 .154 .308
Eric Gagne 10 1 0 0 1 1 2 3 0 0 0 .100 .250 .400 .650
Curt Schilling 13 4 2 0 0 2 2 2 0 0 0 .308 .400 .462 .862
Casey vs 10 pitchers - 19 for 76, .250
Casey vs rest since 87 - 1041 for 3412, .305
Just another clear win for the pitchers.

Ichiro Suzuki -
Roger Clemens 20 2 1 0 0 1 4 2 0 0 0 .100 .250 .150 .400
Pedro Martinez 20 5 0 0 0 1 1 2 4 0 0 .250 .318 .250 .568
Mariano Rivera 5 1 0 0 0 0 1 1 1 0 0 .200 .333 .200 .533
Tim Hudson 61 14 3 0 1 2 3 5 0 1 0 .230 .266 .328 .593
Andy Pettitte 19 8 1 0 0 5 0 2 1 0 0 .421 .421 .474 .895
Randy Johnson 0 0
John Smoltz 0 0
Mark Prior 3 0 0 0 0 0 0 1 0 0 0 .000 .000 .000 .000
Eric Gagne 0 0
Curt Schilling 7 1 0 0 0 1 0 0 0 0 0 .143 .143 .143 .286
Ichiro vs 10 pitchers - 31 for 135, .230
Ichiro vs rest since 87 - 893 for 2587, .345

Vladimir Guerrero:
Roger Clemens 16 3 0 0 0 3 2 2 0 1 0 .188 .263 .188 .451
Pedro Martinez 11 3 1 0 1 6 3 4 1 1 1 .273 .400 .636 1.036
Mariano Rivera 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 .000 .000 .000 .000
Tim Hudson 6 1 1 0 0 1 0 1 0 0 0 .167 .167 .333 .500
Andy Pettitte 6 3 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 .500 .500 .667 1.167
Randy Johnson 24 6 0 0 2 3 0 9 0 0 0 .250 .250 .500 .750
John Smoltz 21 5 1 1 0 3 1 3 1 0 0 .238 .261 .381 .642
Mark Prior 7 1 0 0 0 1 1 1 0 0 0 .143 .250 .143 .393
Eric Gagne 7 2 0 0 1 1 0 2 1 0 0 .286 .286 .714 1.000
Curt Schilling 51 13 4 0 4 6 4 9 0 0 2 .255 .309 .569 .878
Guerrero vs 10 pitchers - 41 for 150, .273
Guerrero vs rest since 87 - 1380 for 4225, .327

Manny Ramirez:
Roger Clemens 50 9 1 0 3 6 10 18 0 0 1 .180 .317 .380 .697
Pedro Martinez 29 4 1 0 0 0 0 13 0 0 0 .138 .138 .172 .310
Mariano Rivera 29 6 0 0 1 6 1 10 0 0 0 .207 .226 .310 .536
Tim Hudson 24 8 2 1 0 4 2 6 0 0 1 .333 .407 .500 .907
Andy Pettitte 59 25 7 0 3 18 5 4 1 0 2 .424 .470 .695 1.165
Randy Johnson 19 4 1 0 1 7 1 6 0 0 1 .211 .250 .421 .671
John Smoltz 0 0
Eric Gagne 0 0
Curt Schilling 0 0
Ramirez vs 10 pitchers - 56 for 210, .267
Ramirez vs rest since 87 - 1704 for 5362, .318

Derek Jeter:
Roger Clemens 32 6 3 0 0 1 1 10 2 1 2 .188 .235 .281 .517
Pedro Martínez 77 18 2 0 2 4 9 21 2 0 0 .234 .322 .338 .660
Mariano Rivera 0 0
Tim Hudson 22 5 1 0 0 1 1 3 0 0 0 .227 .261 .273 .534
Andy Pettite 0 0
Randy Johnson 11 3 1 0 1 2 0 4 0 0 0 .273 .273 .636 .909
John Smoltz 2 0 0 0 0 0 0 2 0 0 0 .000 .000 .000 .000
Mark Prior 3 0 0 0 0 0 0 3 0 0 0 .000 .000 .000 .000
Eric Gagne 0 0
Curt Schilling 21 3 0 0 1 2 1 8 0 0 0 .143 .182 .286 .468
Jeter vs 10 pitchers - 35 for 168, .208
Jeter vs rest since '87 - 1699 for 1345, .318

Adrian Beltre:
Roger Clemens 0 0
Pedro Martínez 3 0 0 0 0 0 0 1 0 0 0 .000 .000 .000 .000
Mariano Rivera 0 0
Tim Hudson 4 1 0 0 0 0 1 3 0 0 0 .250 .400 .250 .650
Andy Pettite 0 0
Randy Johnson 52 11 1 0 2 4 3 16 2 1 0 .212 .246 .346 .592
hn Smoltz 10 3 2 0 1 2 0 3 1 0 0 .300 .300 .800 1.100
Mark Prior 10 1 0 0 1 1 0 5 0 0 1 .100 .100 .400 .500
Eric Gagne 0 0
Curt Schilling 33 5 0 0 1 2 0 15 0 0 0 .152 .152 .242 .394
Beltre vs 10 pitchers - 21 for 112, .188
Beltre vs rest since '87 - 928 for 3350, .277

10 hitters vs. 10 pitchers - 367 for 1435, .258
10 hitters vs rest since '87 - 13157 for 41551, .317

You're stealing, CADad.

I believe we'll need that "outdate" judge in this thread also.

Updated w/ Pujols vs the pitchers results.

Updated w/ pitchers vs Casey results. Ichiro coming up next.

Updated w/ Ichiro vs pitchers. Ouch! A major slaughter. Looks like Ichiro is a bottom feeder because he sure can't handle these guys.

Was there any doubt?

Pitchers that win 20 games consistently or close games with great save percentages must have an advantage or the numbers wouldn't be there.

Great hitters have better numbers against great pitchers than the other hitters.

But none of them have good numbers.

Those HOF offensive stats aren't generated against Schilling, Clemens, Johnson, Smoltz, Gagne, etc etc.

Interesting numbers !!!!!

Is the "outdated" judge available?????

TR,
The overall numbers don't surprise me but the individuals sure do. Even though Pujols only has 60 at bats against these guys it is amazing that he's done so well against top pitching. On the other hand I would have thought that Ichiro would be less vulnerable to being dominated than anyone else and that clearly isn't the case.

This is a fun thread to look at,and I appreciate CADad's work. In some of the cases it does not show a good average, because some of the hitters have not faced the pitchers.
Ichiro only has some history with Clemens, Martinez, Hudson, Rivera and Pettitte.
Casey has no more than 14 AB's against anyone.
Pierre only has a history against Johnson, Gagne and Schilling.
Pujols has done real well, but he does not have a history with anyone outside of a little with Johnson and Prior.
Even Bonds, who has played a long time only has a long history with Martinez, Johnson, Smoltz and Schilling.

CADAD

I agree
The numbers are a bit surprising even though not pure--ideally it would be great if all had equal at bats against each guy but nonetheless it is still great info and quite interesting

By the way thanx for doing all the leg work--it makes for a purely fun thread

CaDad,Thanks for your research. TR, Thanks for getting it going.


It doesn't surprise me that Ichiro's numbers are off more than others. I believe his unorthodox mechanics catch up to him.

I am guessing that Jeter's numbers may be similar. I know he gets some big hits but it seems that he has some noticeable holes in his strike zone. I'll wait for CaDad to prove me wrong.

Thanks again

I've added Vlad to the list. You guys are right that the at bats are limited for individuals. That's part of why you'll see a pitcher owning a hitter or a hitter owning a pitcher but at the end when we look at the totals for all the hitters combined against all the pitchers combined I think we'll have plenty of at bats to go on and the results will be fairly meaningful. Teach's post was right and I think by the same token you'd see that these pitchers aren't posting HOF numbers against these hitters in general.

SBK,
I've glanced at the numbers for Jeter and I don't think they'll prove you wrong.

Added Ramirez to the list.

The final results:
10 Hitters vs 10 Pitchers
367 for 1435, .258
10 Hitters vs rest since '87
13157 for 41551, .317

People are still asking why the Cards were swept by Boston.

It's in these numbers. When they lost the first game in Boston against Wakefield/Arroyo, it was over. And, I said it then.

That loss, followed by games against Schilling and Pedro, with these stats in mind, (good pitchers dominate good hitters) and the Cardinals mediocre pitching its obvious what had to happen.

The local media still doesn't get it. They think the Cards were tired, or something.

It's real simple...........They lost to a superior team.

If you were Manny or Albert which pitching staff do you want to face?

Not even close.

If somebody gets ambitious they can go through the career hits vs. at bats for all of these pitchers to find their average BAA and see how that compares to the .258 they had against these hitters. Just glancing at it my guess would be that their composite BAA is about .220 or .230.

I agree Teach....the Cardinals lost to a team that had a far superior pitching staff!!