"The Place of Athletics at Amherst College"

Lots of interesting content from "Biddy."  The paragraph that notes "certain sports are still less diverse" makes me wonder if one of those sports is baseball? 

Question: are baseball coaches ever under pressure from admin to refrain, if possible, from having  a roster of 35 white guys, year after year?  In other words, if two recruits are both equal but one is non-Caucasian, is there incentive to offer the non-Caucasian kid? 

Just curious, as the Amherst memo is not mincing words as it talks about increasing "diversity" in "certain sports" they offer. 

Interesting. Thanks.

Very informative. My questions and comments:

1. The "Athletic Factor, Coded, and Walk-on": is this standard for all D3s? I heard a lot of talks of Walk-ons and the report confirms that walk-ons are usually not successful. What about "Coded"? Are coaches view them the same as the "Athletic Factor" kids?

2. Diversity: as discussed in my other thread, Baseball is dominated by White players. But Amherst seems to be genuinely trying to diversify.

3. The majors of athletes: this is a little surprising to me. As a D3, I thought there would be some Biology or Math majors. But apparently not.

I do love academia!! Only in the US do we need to do another study to confirm that males like and play sports to a disproportionate % then females and diversity is an issue at private, exclusive, expensive colleges...this is shocking to everyone. Tell you what, lower your admission standards and charge less... you will get diversified!

Hot news off the press, HS girls like to attend school dances at higher % then 16 year old boys...and adult women prefer the theater at a higher % then men...who saw that coming???

This could have been written by any athletics program/college in the United States...athletics is not about diversity it is about ability.  As a 54-year old white man who is about as middle-of-the-road politically as anyone, I think this is way above and beyond splitting hairs.  If the student body meets diversity goals and Title IX requirements why is this even an issue for athletics?  Do we also need to make sure each and every classroom, faculty, and the line at the campus Starbucks also meets those diversity goals?  Ridiculous. 

Fenway, while agree with your sentiments...it seems you are out of touch with the climate today on campus, this Sh!t is real and the people in charge of many/most actually damn near all schools really believe in it.

The correction is obviously money, when schools go to alumni asking for money they should be held accountable, they will follow the money 100% of the time! It will take years of course for this to happen, maybe even generations due how far out of touch academia really is but eventually it can happen.

Amherst "problem": athletes are happy with their athletic and academic experience.  Athlete alums give in far greater proportion and amounts than non-athlete alum. Athletes majors tend towards business and away from arts. Athletes communicate to each other their feelings about professors (note that the study didn't ask the professors about results; it was only about the feelings of the athletes) and classes. Athletes congregate with other athletes.

Amherst "solution": let's blow up the system; let's force athletes into the arts (cause the dumb jocks don't understand any better), into classes they don't want (cause non-athletes don't communicate to each other about classes and professors), etc. In short, we'll ignore the empirical data on post-graduate success and substitute the administration's judgement for the judgement of the young adults we're educating.

Smoke,

It's got to be interesting for the parent of any prospective or current Amherst student to see that much detail on athletic admission policies, majors, faculty attitude,  etc., and the info on graduation rates and outcomes has got to be encouraging.

On admissions I'm assuming that the NESCAC has got to be unique among D3 conferences in their agreement to codify their admission process for students.  Are there any others where all of the schools are so highly selective?  It's hard to imagine how that would work in a league like Centenial or SCIAC where there are some schools that are very highly selective and some that are not.   In theory at least the NESCAC model seems to set a level playing field among the schools, and that seems like a good thing.

The Nescac in Football does not compete against other D3 schools. They just compete against themselves. It makes very difficult to judge them against the rest of D3. 

The Necac is a different animal even by D3 standards but not always in a bad way. 

Much like Bogeyorpar, I didn't realize there were three buckets. I thought there were only two. I guess it breaks down into: (1) significant help in admissions; (2) minor help in admissions, and (3) no help in admissions. And in most cases probably (1) significant playing time; (2) some playing time; (3) no playing time.

2019Dad posted:

Much like Bogeyorpar, I didn't realize there were three buckets. I thought there were only two. I guess it breaks down into: (1) significant help in admissions; (2) minor help in admissions, and (3) no help in admissions. And in most cases probably (1) significant playing time; (2) some playing time; (3) no playing time.

Seems like it.

However, will coaches play the system more strategically? Say, there's a kid with high GPA and standard test scores and also high baseball skills; another kid with OK academics and OK baseball skills. If I'm the coach, I'll mark the OK kid as "Athletic Factor" since he may not be admitted otherwise; the "high" kid will probably be admitted without coach's help anyway, so I'll mark him as Coded, or even not at all.

2019Dad posted:

Much like Bogeyorpar, I didn't realize there were three buckets. I thought there were only two. I guess it breaks down into: (1) significant help in admissions; (2) minor help in admissions, and (3) no help in admissions. And in most cases probably (1) significant playing time; (2) some playing time; (3) no playing time.

Apparently that is the deal in that conference.  I haven't ever heard of it being the case elsewhere. It may be that some hi-ac schools have a similar procedure that they've adopted internally, but I have not heard of it.  Just 2 buckets. 

fenwaysouth posted:

This could have been written by any athletics program/college in the United States...athletics is not about diversity it is about ability.  As a 54-year old white man who is about as middle-of-the-road politically as anyone, I think this is way above and beyond splitting hairs.  If the student body meets diversity goals and Title IX requirements why is this even an issue for athletics?  Do we also need to make sure each and every classroom, faculty, and the line at the campus Starbucks also meets those diversity goals?  Ridiculous. 

I read the report again, and the study does reveal some facts that are counter-intuitive. Actually the most shocking numbers are in the diversity section. For non-athletes, white is only 35%, while colored is 53%. For athletes, white is 73%, colored 23%. That is a statistically significant difference by any measure. It almost means that if you are white but not an athlete, the admission odds are against you; and if you are colored and play sports, the odds are against you.

They offer some speculations on why this is the case. 1) expensive camps; 2) NESCAC recruiting rules; 3) lack of diversity of coaches.

We had lengthy discussion on diversity in the other thread, and we noticed the striking numbers on NESCAC baseball teams as well (e.g. only 3 Asians for the entire league). The "insider view" from a NESCAC school is valuable addition to the discussion.

I hope more schools produce comprehensive reports like this. Not only on diversity, but also on admission, graduation, time commitment, major selection, etc.

FWIW, 2017 decided on Amherst in part because of how diverse the student body AND the team are (when he sees the athletic diversity stats, he'll be surprised).  The Amherst baseball roster also had the broadest geographic distribution of any team that recruited him.

smokeminside posted:

FWIW, 2017 decided on Amherst in part because of how diverse the student body AND the team are (when he sees the athletic diversity stats, he'll be surprised).  The Amherst baseball roster also had the broadest geographic distribution of any team that recruited him.

 

Awesome school.  Great job by your son getting admitted to such a difficult LAC.  I'm sure he'll love it there and do great.

Thanks!  Fortunate for him to have had a choice.  Hoping the winter doesn't freak him out!

Bogeyorpar posted:

fenwaysouth posted:

This could have been written by any athletics program/college in the United States...athletics is not about diversity it is about ability.  As a 54-year old white man who is about as middle-of-the-road politically as anyone, I think this is way above and beyond splitting hairs.  If the student body meets diversity goals and Title IX requirements why is this even an issue for athletics?  Do we also need to make sure each and every classroom, faculty, and the line at the campus Starbucks also meets those diversity goals?  Ridiculous. 

We had lengthy discussion on diversity in the other thread, and we noticed the striking numbers on NESCAC baseball teams as well (e.g. only 3 Asians for the entire league). The "insider view" from a NESCAC school is valuable addition to the discussion.

How the focus on diversity had an effect on son's journey I will never know.  But he was always faced with it when he filled out the "Athlete Questionnaire" on every school's website.  Every question was cut and dry; age, weight, height, travel team, coach's email, etc.

But then came the "Ethnicity" question, and that was always where he would suddenly pause and ask, "Dad, what do I put?"  Mother-in-Law is Japanese, wife is half, son is quarter.  "Hmmmm?"  I'd think.  "Yeah, what should he put?  Will checking the Asian box help him?  Add to their diversity numbers?  Sure, anything but White Male.  But wait, this is a high-academic school........they probably have a lot of Asians and this may hurt his chances?............but wait, he's a baseball player, there are hardly any Asian baseball players?  This will help, yes?  But maybe not because maybe when they count all of the ethnicities at the school it doesn't matter as long as they are on campus somehow as students or student-athletes.  And is 1/4 Asian really Asian?  Does he deserve to check the Asian box?  I mean, I don't want him to cheat on this ethnicity test?.........But maybe..........."  And on, and on, and on. 

Usually in the end, I tell son, "just check the "None of Your Business" box." 

I totally agree with you on none of their damn business. golf clap!!

that being said you know doubt hurt yourself by not checking Asian...if you can be anything but a white male during the application process to colleges you are one step ahead immediately.

Bogeyorpar posted:

fenwaysouth posted:

This could have been written by any athletics program/college in the United States...athletics is not about diversity it is about ability.  As a 54-year old white man who is about as middle-of-the-road politically as anyone, I think this is way above and beyond splitting hairs.  If the student body meets diversity goals and Title IX requirements why is this even an issue for athletics?  Do we also need to make sure each and every classroom, faculty, and the line at the campus Starbucks also meets those diversity goals?  Ridiculous. 

I read the report again, and the study does reveal some facts that are counter-intuitive. Actually the most shocking numbers are in the diversity section. For non-athletes, white is only 35%, while colored is 53%. For athletes, white is 73%, colored 23%. That is a statistically significant difference by any measure. It almost means that if you are white but not an athlete, the admission odds are against you; and if you are colored and play sports, the odds are against you.

 

I find it interesting as well. 53% of the entire school is "colored" whatever that exactly means, I think we can safely assume it is a minority of some form, but they, Amhurst are concerned that to many athletes are white...if you look or even casually glance at the data from the racial breakdown of the Unites States, compare it to the student body at Amhurst it is hard to determine anything but that they are already discriminating against white and plan to do more of it!!

Obviously the admission department doesn't have a real close relationship with the Math department!!

Smoke,

Thanks for sharing the Amherst memo and study regarding their athletic programs.  Like Fenway already stated, "This could have been written by any athletics program/college in the United States." So the points it hits hardly pertain solely to Amherst.  

By the way, congratulations to your son.  Playing baseball at Amherst, not to mention just getting in to Amherst, is quite an accomplishment.   I have watched as the 2017 commits have popped up on PG's college page.  And have always noted the superior standardized test scores of their recruits.  Truly impressive.  

Amherst is one of those rare small colleges that has no problem recruiting at a national level.  Says a lot about their programs.  New England weather and all!!

I hope we can refrain from turning this thread into a "Bash Amherst" thread.  I don't think that was Smokeminside's intention when he shared this informative memo and study.  Again, I agree with Fenway.   This could be any small college or large university.  They all focus on this stuff, North, South, East, and West.

And other posters have pointed out information besides the "diversity" paragraph that is interesting.  JCG's points on athlete grad rates, majors, etc. was thought provoking and informative.  Sheds light on why Amherst is so desirable. 

old_school posted:

that being said you know doubt hurt yourself by not checking Asian...if you can be anything but a white male during the application process to colleges you are one step ahead immediately.

Many Admissions people will tell you that applicants of Asian descent are held to a high standard than the general application pool at many (not all) HA colleges, and a US District court wants to see the private data behind those decisions at Harvard.

http://harvardmagazine.com/201...n-admissions-lawsuit

#1 AC, IMO your son could only hurt himself by "checking the Asian box" for the schools on his list.

Holy Cow, just looked at the 2017 Amherst recruits' ACT scores.  Six players, all with ACT scores posted.  The AVERAGE ACT score is 34.   Average.............34........Whoa.  

Again, congrats to your son.

#1 Assistant Coach posted:

Holy Cow, just looked at the 2017 Amherst recruits' ACT scores.  Six players, all with ACT scores posted.  The AVERAGE ACT score is 34.   Average.............34........Whoa.  

Again, congrats to your son.

34... that is impressive. one of my sons buddies got into Tuffs recently, they had some similar standards.

MidAtlanticDad posted:

old_school posted:

that being said you know doubt hurt yourself by not checking Asian...if you can be anything but a white male during the application process to colleges you are one step ahead immediately.

Many Admissions people will tell you that applicants of Asian descent are held to a high standard than the general application pool at many (not all) HA colleges, and a US District court wants to see the private data behind those decisions at Harvard.

http://harvardmagazine.com/201...n-admissions-lawsuit

#1 AC, IMO your son could only hurt himself by "checking the Asian box" for the schools on his list.

check the transgender box, you might have them hand delivering you the acceptance letter!!

the link above references a lawsuit, which is a long way from proven. The problem could be that race is used in any fashion, positive or negative...

old_school posted:

MidAtlanticDad posted:

old_school posted:

that being said you know doubt hurt yourself by not checking Asian...if you can be anything but a white male during the application process to colleges you are one step ahead immediately.

Many Admissions people will tell you that applicants of Asian descent are held to a high standard than the general application pool at many (not all) HA colleges, and a US District court wants to see the private data behind those decisions at Harvard.

http://harvardmagazine.com/201...n-admissions-lawsuit

#1 AC, IMO your son could only hurt himself by "checking the Asian box" for the schools on his list.

check the transgender box, you might have them hand delivering you the acceptance letter!!

the link above references a lawsuit, which is a long way from proven. The problem could be that race is used in any fashion, positive or negative...

I don't think we know how far away from proven this is. If Harvard hands over documents that shows test scores and grades for admitted Asian students are measurably higher than the general population of admitted students, then it won't seem like a long way off.

IMO, highly selective colleges are in a difficult position. They value a certain about of diversity of life experience in their student population, and they're also trying to find those exceptional individuals who for many reasons would never show up on their radar. But they're trying to balance that with maintaining their extremely high academic standards, and keep that massive alumni giving coming in. Race may be one component in this equation, but it's certainly a long way from perfect.

#1 Assistant Coach posted:

Holy Cow, just looked at the 2017 Amherst recruits' ACT scores.  Six players, all with ACT scores posted.  The AVERAGE ACT score is 34.   Average.............34........Whoa.  

Again, congrats to your son.

Wow, that is impressive!

I checked Amherst's archrival Williams, and it's not as impressive. They have only two guys listed on PG, one with a 3.51 GPA and 28 ACT? That guy's name sounds Asian, so maybe it is a diversity pick. Or maybe he retook the test and did not update the score.

Amherst is a first rate institution. My son played ball there and had a great experience. The diversity there should be applauded. They handle that well and still manage to be a top rated educational facility. They recruit nationally. They have many kids from other countries as well. The atheltic program is very competitive with other schools in the conference. Your son is very fortunate to be admitted. Congratulations to you and your family. Quite an accomplishment!!

Bogeyorpar posted:

fenwaysouth posted:

This could have been written by any athletics program/college in the United States...athletics is not about diversity it is about ability.  As a 54-year old white man who is about as middle-of-the-road politically as anyone, I think this is way above and beyond splitting hairs.  If the student body meets diversity goals and Title IX requirements why is this even an issue for athletics?  Do we also need to make sure each and every classroom, faculty, and the line at the campus Starbucks also meets those diversity goals?  Ridiculous. 

I read the report again, and the study does reveal some facts that are counter-intuitive. Actually the most shocking numbers are in the diversity section. For non-athletes, white is only 35%, while colored is 53%. For athletes, white is 73%, colored 23%. That is a statistically significant difference by any measure. It almost means that if you are white but not an athlete, the admission odds are against you; and if you are colored and play sports, the odds are against you.

They offer some speculations on why this is the case. 1) expensive camps; 2) NESCAC recruiting rules; 3) lack of diversity of coaches.

We had lengthy discussion on diversity in the other thread, and we noticed the striking numbers on NESCAC baseball teams as well (e.g. only 3 Asians for the entire league). The "insider view" from a NESCAC school is valuable addition to the discussion.

I hope more schools produce comprehensive reports like this. Not only on diversity, but also on admission, graduation, time commitment, major selection, etc.

Just in case you did not know, the term "colored" is very offensive to black Americans and other minorities and hasn't been used as a common reference to minorities since the 60's.  The term was commonly used in place of the "n" word by white Americans when referring to African Americans/Blacks and it was no less offensive.  

YERT16 posted:

Bogeyorpar posted:

fenwaysouth posted:

This could have been written by any athletics program/college in the United States...athletics is not about diversity it is about ability.  As a 54-year old white man who is about as middle-of-the-road politically as anyone, I think this is way above and beyond splitting hairs.  If the student body meets diversity goals and Title IX requirements why is this even an issue for athletics?  Do we also need to make sure each and every classroom, faculty, and the line at the campus Starbucks also meets those diversity goals?  Ridiculous. 

I read the report again, and the study does reveal some facts that are counter-intuitive. Actually the most shocking numbers are in the diversity section. For non-athletes, white is only 35%, while colored is 53%. For athletes, white is 73%, colored 23%. That is a statistically significant difference by any measure. It almost means that if you are white but not an athlete, the admission odds are against you; and if you are colored and play sports, the odds are against you.

They offer some speculations on why this is the case. 1) expensive camps; 2) NESCAC recruiting rules; 3) lack of diversity of coaches.

We had lengthy discussion on diversity in the other thread, and we noticed the striking numbers on NESCAC baseball teams as well (e.g. only 3 Asians for the entire league). The "insider view" from a NESCAC school is valuable addition to the discussion.

I hope more schools produce comprehensive reports like this. Not only on diversity, but also on admission, graduation, time commitment, major selection, etc.

Just in case you did not know, the term "colored" is very offensive to black Americans and other minorities and hasn't been used as a common reference to minorities since the 60's.  The term was commonly used in place of the "n" word by white Americans when referring to African Americans/Blacks and it was no less offensive.  

Good point. The Amherst report uses the term "students of color" as a catch-all to distinguish from "white" students. (Somewhat confusingly, a "student of color" can be white, of course, because Hispanics can be of any race.)

nxt lvl posted:

Amherst is a first rate institution. My son played ball there and had a great experience. The diversity there should be applauded. They handle that well and still manage to be a top rated educational facility. They recruit nationally. They have many kids from other countries as well. The atheltic program is very competitive with other schools in the conference. Your son is very fortunate to be admitted. Congratulations to you and your family. Quite an accomplishment!!

Thanks.  We feel very fortunate that he will be going there. 

2019Dad posted:

YERT16 posted:

Bogeyorpar posted:

fenwaysouth posted:

This could have been written by any athletics program/college in the United States...athletics is not about diversity it is about ability.  As a 54-year old white man who is about as middle-of-the-road politically as anyone, I think this is way above and beyond splitting hairs.  If the student body meets diversity goals and Title IX requirements why is this even an issue for athletics?  Do we also need to make sure each and every classroom, faculty, and the line at the campus Starbucks also meets those diversity goals?  Ridiculous. 

I read the report again, and the study does reveal some facts that are counter-intuitive. Actually the most shocking numbers are in the diversity section. For non-athletes, white is only 35%, while colored is 53%. For athletes, white is 73%, colored 23%. That is a statistically significant difference by any measure. It almost means that if you are white but not an athlete, the admission odds are against you; and if you are colored and play sports, the odds are against you.

They offer some speculations on why this is the case. 1) expensive camps; 2) NESCAC recruiting rules; 3) lack of diversity of coaches.

We had lengthy discussion on diversity in the other thread, and we noticed the striking numbers on NESCAC baseball teams as well (e.g. only 3 Asians for the entire league). The "insider view" from a NESCAC school is valuable addition to the discussion.

I hope more schools produce comprehensive reports like this. Not only on diversity, but also on admission, graduation, time commitment, major selection, etc.

Just in case you did not know, the term "colored" is very offensive to black Americans and other minorities and hasn't been used as a common reference to minorities since the 60's.  The term was commonly used in place of the "n" word by white Americans when referring to African Americans/Blacks and it was no less offensive.  

Good point. The Amherst report uses the term "students of color" as a catch-all to distinguish from "white" students. (Somewhat confusingly, a "student of color" can be white, of course, because Hispanics can be of any race.)

That phrase is commonly used when referring to multiple minority groups and is not thought of as offensive.  My guess is that white hispanics are usually grouped with other minority groups for purposes of diversity statistics.