The summer in between

Think about it like this. He is going to go into fall baseball at his new college competing against college players for the first time in his life. Kids who are as talented or more talented who are older, stronger, more experienced than he is. They will be coming off college seasons and into a summer league where they will be ready to compete in the fall. Your son if he takes off the summer from playing will be coming in with no at bats for months and no game experience for months. Do you think he might be a little behind those guys? Especially position players.

If he is a pitcher maybe cut back on the innings pitched a little but still enough to stay sharp while working very hard to be in great shape coming in. For a position player he needs to come in with as many at bats over the summer as he can get while working hard to be in the best shape he can be when he comes in.

If they want "think" he needs to attend summer school there fine. If they don't then make sure he not only is playing baseball but working at getting better and getting in great physical shape for the fall season. What he does in the fall will determine what his role will be in the spring. Coming in with no baseball for that length of time and then competing against guys who are moving from summer competition to fall competition is not a recipe for success imo. Good luck

quote:

Originally posted by Coach_May:
Think about it like this. He is going to go into fall baseball at his new college competing against college players for the first time in his life. Kids who are as talented or more talented who are older, stronger, more experienced than he is. They will be coming off college seasons and into a summer league where they will be ready to compete in the fall. Your son if he takes off the summer from playing will be coming in with no at bats for months and no game experience for months. Do you think he might be a little behind those guys? Especially position players.

If he is a pitcher maybe cut back on the innings pitched a little but still enough to stay sharp while working very hard to be in great shape coming in. For a position player he needs to come in with as many at bats over the summer as he can get while working hard to be in the best shape he can be when he comes in.

If they want "think" he needs to attend summer school there fine. If they don't then make sure he not only is playing baseball but working at getting better and getting in great physical shape for the fall season. What he does in the fall will determine what his role will be in the spring. Coming in with no baseball for that length of time and then competing against guys who are moving from summer competition to fall competition is not a recipe for success imo. Good luck

Thanks, Coach May - that makes a lot of sense. We have a wooden bat league team not far from us and in looking at their roster we see many college players, so that perhaps explains it more for me, too.

2013,

The daily routine included supervised conditioning work, class, unsupervised individual skill work (coaches aren't allowed to coach during the summer), and mandatory study hall. They were busy, full days. Many of the lunch hours also had seminars for athletes from all sports on a wide range of topics, including study skills, time management, dealing with the media, substance abuse prevention, personal finance, case studies of athletes who had crashed & burned, and other life success topics.

My son felt summer school was extremely beneficial for:

Academic preparation--College course work is harder than high school, and it is much better to adapt to the higher expectations while taking two courses in the summer than while taking five in the fall. Plus, it's good to get two courses in the book.

Physical preparation--The conditioning coach at my son's school believes incoming freshmen need the summer with him in order to be able to handle his fall workouts. The freshmen who didn't go to summer school had a rougher time of it in fall conditioning.

Campus familiarity--It's great to be already settled and know your way around when the massive herds of freshmen arrive in August. Also, it got him accustomed to the daily routine of a college athlete: get up early, go hard from one commitment to another all day long, make every minute count, go to bed early and tired.

Bonding with Teammates--The freshmen players were already a pretty tight group by the time the fall semester began. Building that trust and respect is very important.

All in all, it was a very valuable piece of the transition from high school boy to college man and learning to take responsibility for planning and executing his daily routine.

I don't usually disagree with Coach May on much, and my different perspective on this issue may be due to the fact that my son is a pitcher, not a position player. Pitchers coming out of high school are more likely to need rest than reps. I don't know much about what position players need.

Best wishes.

I think that every situation is different.

70 plus innings in HS, then summer travel (not sure how many innings that included), I felt after the initial move to college son was very tired first semester. He struggled in the classroom, which I am going to assume may have been his last priority his first semester.

If he had to do it all over again, no summer baseball and off to college campus before he had to be there, to get in some classes and work in the gym. He had a very good scholarship, he was going to pitch one way or the other, and IMO, the college game (at that level) was so unlike HS anyway. Because of all of this, he was unable to play his first college summer because he really needed a break, that break should have been before college.

Pitching may have alot to do with plans, this is something you could discuss with coach, many coaches want you to play, many want you to come early. My opinion is that everyone needs a physical or a menatl break and for college players, it doesn't happen often.

Another pitcher, mine went to summer school and worked out daily in the team's facilities; often with the team's strength coach. He also established a long-toss routine and followed a regular bullpen schedule. When he started fall baseball, he felt like he was in shape, rested, and ahead in his academic work.

No matter how you go about it, make certain that you don't show up worn out! Fall baseball is virtually guaranteed to be the most physically demanding challenge you've ever experienced; and, as Coach May says, you're going to be competing against players who are as good or better...some of whom have several years of college experience under their belts. Add to that the demands of the classroom, and it is not an environment that you want to enter tired from summer play.

Wow, great comments!

A lot will depend on the coach and the institution, I suppose. 2013 is a two-way HS player but we have been told to be prepared for him to be converted to OF for college, which would make some sense. It's less likely that he'll pitch in college.

He will have accumulated 15+ college credits through dual credit by the time he graduates from high school, but summer school and workouts would still be a real advantage for him to adapt.

When the time comes this will definitely be on our list of questions for potential coaches.

Thanks everyone.

My son, a position player on a Connie Mack team actually played with the summer team after graduation. As mentioned by Coach May a postion player will be at a great disadvantage if he doesn't play at the highest possible level before getting to fall ball for a variety of reasons.

Every summer is very important to a players development. There are no days off for a position player. As you son moves up the ladder, he will find fewer and fewer position players taking time off at any time of the year.

Its a fulltime job.

Summer is baseball season. Would a professional player take the summer off? Many even play in the winter. I can understand not pitching as much if you've thrown a lot of innings. I suppose there are other good reasons not to play. However summer is smack dad in the middle of baseball season. It's just not the college or high school season. It's summer collegiate leagues, International competition, summer baseball, etc.

This post is right on time. I had raised this issue about a month ago in the Texas forumn but with a little different twist. I really do believe that a position player should play the summer before he enters college so as to be prepared for fall ball. My son will be playing college ball next year and my issue was looking for alternatives other than playing on an expensive travel team. My thought process was that it would be nice for him to have the time to work a part time job and maybe take some college classes near home before heading off to college. I was thinking that the need to travel and do showcase events for an already signed ball player would have little value at this time other than me having to pay travel expenses and the other costs of playing for a high cost travel team, especially since the draft is over by then. My sense is that it would be better to find a team that plays local competition. Since we do live in Texas the players really do not need to travel far to play good competition. Sorry for changing the subject somewhat but I would be interested whether other folks have thought about the issue from this perspective.

You can see the "split" amongst parents of pitchers versus position players. For their circumstances, I believe both parties are correct.

I'm with Coach May on this as a parent of a position player. Position players that came into Fall ball without Summer competition DID NOT play their best thus didn't compete well. Also, one Freshmen pitcher who did get innings in over the summer, came in with sharp control and earned a starting spot based on Fall performance and early Spring success!

GOLDEN RULE; my sons 18U ECB team that he played on the summer before entering college, didn't travel and was less expensive than usual. There was no need for travel as most players were signed. The team was Coached by Coaches that were Pro Scouts with College contacts. They knew the position players needed AB's and the pitchers needed "some" innings but not a lot! It was really the perfect situation.

They can't ignore conditioning though. My son continued to use his HS facilities for lifting and did a bunch of cardio work. The Fall workouts were challenging to say the least!

[QUOTE]Originally posted by PGStaff:
Summer is baseball season. Would a professional player take the summer off? [QUOTE]

Only thing I feel about this is that it is NOT professional baseball. Last time I checked there were classes to attend, as well as maintaining GPA to be eligible to play.

Do players not do well in fall because they didn't play or because they just sat around doing nothing? I think there is a big difference between heading off to campus, starting the rigorous conditioning, begin a throwing program (all), working in the cages or taking in a class or two, over doing nothing. Also, you can't practice if you are hurt, so if there are any issues it should be considered as to what a player does the summer before he enters college.

While I understand the differences that exist between position players and pitchers, there is value in attending summer classes, sometimes just so that one doesn't come up short, end of 4 years, many still have to attend another semester (or two) to get their degree.

TPM,

My point is very simple... summer is baseball season. If someone is injured, needs to do school work, etc., summer is still baseball season at every level. It always has been and it will always be that way.

I don't believe in rest during the baseball season. Rest, dealing with injuries, school work, all take place during the spring college/high school season.

An 18 year old pitcher that goes pro will generally be well taken care of. But he is not going to take the summer off unless he is injured.

I understand the advantage of taking classes in the summer. Some do that and still play in the summer. I certainly respect those who take academics seriously. I know it's not a fair comparison, but there is a very large percentage of Latin players in professional baseball. Most of them play year around. Are they better athletes? Do they have more opportunity? For many, it's their ticket for success. It's too important to them in order to take the summer off.

I'm not claiming I'm correct about all this, but IMO every day on a ball field, every game, every pitch, is important. I know circumstances are different from one player to another. So maybe I should say it thyis way... Summer is baseball season, you better have a very good reason or you should be playing. The college fall practices will have many players who played in the summer. There's always winter, but some even play then.

Maybe we could do a study and find out how many of the top prospects in baseball played last summer and how many took the summer off. I know that some do take the summer off. I know that sometimes agents advise high draft picks to take the summer off until the player signs. This actually makes sense in some cases.

Anyway, JMO on the subject, I don't expect anyone to share that opinion. You could be better off if you don't.

I don't think that anyone mentioned rest over playing the game. There is a difference between "rest" and leaving early to begin a conditioning program, throwing program for fall and taking a class or two.

In the past, many high draft picks sign late, missing the entire season (the new signing date will end that) and most players, especially pitchers are watched and pitch counts and innings are limited. I beleive that the first round pick from a few years ago drafted by cardinals was (pitcher) was shut down (elbow soreness), they cited the large work load in HS (including showcases, tournaments and coming from a warmer climate state) had taken it's toll. Many of these top prospects signing late still put in limited work the following year and then head to Fall League for more work.

Correct me if I am wrong but many players that play (especially pitchers)after their first college season come back in fall and play a lessor role. And for the very few that do play fall/winter ball on the pro level, many do not hit or pitch as much as they maybe should have(depending on what went on previous season). Same for the college game, pitchers not getting in enough innings, or hitters not enough at bat. Summer baseball, definetly.
Does that work for teh player that is borderline on his GPA and on teh verge of becoming ineligible. No amount of baseball you will play will help that stat.

Fall is the time that coaches work instruction, how can a coach do that if the first season pitcher needs to shut down for awhile, at one point, which becomes more important? Keep in mind I am speaking of the player entering college for the first time.

Again, this is not about the pro game, this is about college players, and for some getting acclimated to their new environment, working on conditioning, or rehabbing from a nagging injury may be more beneficial. Most newly drafted players are on a lessor work load depending upon their roles, some just for adjustment. The player entering college doesn't have the benefit of a lessor role, fall is the time that one needs to out work their competition, not everyone can do that after a full season and full summer.

Since comaprison keeps coming up, come end of august, most pro players are shut down for months.

It was a good question asked, with good answers, and as I stated it becomes an individual decision. In our case, even though DK didn't pitch as much as the pitchers going through recruiting, I do beleive that for him better conditioning, introduction to a better throwing program taking a course or two would have served him better than playing travel ball (and I mean travel from one part of the country to the next). More importantly a player, especially a pitcher, should be able to play the summer after his first season, rather than the summer before.
Comparing college players to latin professional players makes no sense to me. 95% or more of college players will never see the pro game.

We all have our opinions, but my suggestion is that each one discuss with coach, and make their decision based on what is best for them.

quote:

Originally posted by TPM:We all have our opinions, but my suggestion is that each one discuss with coach, and make their decision based on what is best for them.

In retrospect perhaps this answer should have been obvious to me, but for some reason it wasn't. I imagine coaches have their preferences depending on the position and individual talents of each student-athlete. When the time comes, we'll simply ask what he recommends for our son given his academic and athletic situation at the time and go from there.

There is no reason he can't take a basic 3 hour class at a local community college, and still get in his workouts and most of the play with his summer team.

No problem, it wasn't obvious to me at the time. I wasn't even aware that it was up for discussion.

Regardless, it's nice to know that one might have that option.

.

As TPM notes, attending summer school does not equate to taking the summer off.

Neither does it equate to taking the summer off from competition.

My son's high school season ended in late May. He played in an all-star game Memorial Day. His summer team began local league and tournament play the first of June, and he pitched every week in June with them, culminating in the WWBA 18U tournament over 4th of July. He went straight from East Cobb to college and began a throwing program by the end of the week as soon as he passed his physical. He had one week off between the summer and fall terms, and began fall workouts as soon as he returned to campus.

By no stretch of the imagination was it a summer off or even a summer off from competition.

A college player's annual schedule should be designed to perform at his highest level from mid-February through May or (if lucky) June. Bringing freshmen pitchers in for summer school to begin what for many of them is their first consistent, well-designed throwing program is the equivalent of a marathon runner building base miles before the intense hill and interval work that comes next. It's a prudent preparatory phase.

One college coach told me he just assumes every freshman pitcher he brings in was overused in high school. He wants them off the mound, on campus, and in his structured program as soon as possible.

quote:

Swampboy said....One college coach told me he just assumes every freshman pitcher he brings in was overused in high school. He wants them off the mound, on campus, and in his structured program as soon as possible.

That college coach must get around, because we've heard the same speech!

If I contributed to this discussion by somehow suggesting that my son "took the summer off" from baseball; I'd like to set the record straight. He worked at his craft every single day; on a highly regimented, well-supervised program that kept him sharp and in shape. However, it also prevented him from extending an extremely demanding high school season that had included the state championship series into over-use on the mound with a travel team.

I should also mention, perhaps, that he'd thrown more innings than any other pitcher in his state during the high school season. Not only that, but he knew that his college fall season was going to include 25 scrimmages; and he'd be pitching to live college batters in as many of those scrimmages as a prudent schedule permitted.

"Take the summer off?" Not even close.

It's also up to the individual player and their views as far as loving to play and wanting to play. Last summer my son was a 2011 grad and committed. He looked forward to playing in the summer. Not playing wasn't even an option in his mind, only because its what he loves to do, play baseball. Playing is not always just a means to an end.

I could understand a pitcher making his summer coach aware that he does not want to pitch 100+ pitches every outing after his HS season. But in the end it just gets back to wanting to play rather than needing to play.

Sometimes "love for the game" leads to doing what's best in the long run for your career in it.

Your son decided to play. That's great for him. My son needed the time to be used in another way. To insinuate that one loved the game more than another is a mistake.

Just to be clear... There are many reasons why a player, especially a pitcher would shut down. This happens in both college and pro baseball, both in season and off season.

It's true that most college players will not play professional baseball. However, it has been my experience that most college players do want to play pro baseball.

Blaiming HS coaches for overusing pitchers is easy, but there are college coaches that do the same thing.

Here is how I look at it. Summer is very much the baseball season. Unless there is a very good reason, baseball players should be playing in the summer. I do understand that those very good reasons can be different from one person to the next.

I would argue that in most cases those who play in the summer will be better the following spring. Unless injured I also believe they will be better in the fall. Obviously there are exceptions.

quote:

Originally posted by Swampboy:
.

As TPM notes, attending summer school does not equate to taking the summer off.

Neither does it equate to taking the summer off from competition.

My son's high school season ended in late May. He played in an all-star game Memorial Day. His summer team began local league and tournament play the first of June, and he pitched every week in June with them, culminating in the WWBA 18U tournament over 4th of July. He went straight from East Cobb to college and began a throwing program by the end of the week as soon as he passed his physical. He had one week off between the summer and fall terms, and began fall workouts as soon as he returned to campus.

By no stretch of the imagination was it a summer off or even a summer off from competition.

A college player's annual schedule should be designed to perform at his highest level from mid-February through May or (if lucky) June. Bringing freshmen pitchers in for summer school to begin what for many of them is their first consistent, well-designed throwing program is the equivalent of a marathon runner building base miles before the intense hill and interval work that comes next. It's a prudent preparatory phase.

One college coach told me he just assumes every freshman pitcher he brings in was overused in high school. He wants them off the mound, on campus, and in his structured program as soon as possible.

SWAMPBOY, while I generally agree with your statement, you are speaking to both sides of the argument by involving TPM's comments. Your son a pitcher, played in the Summer & thru the normal summer season ending by early to mid-July. He played summer baseball!

Then, with only a few weeks before he had to report for Fall classes and conditioning, off he went. My son had the same three week break after Summer competition before his College team began practice (before Fall classes began!).

Yours, would be the "preferred" course most would chart for incoming players of any position.

The other side, is NOT to play after the high school season and then report to FALL practice expecting peak performance against very seasoned competition. Not a good decision unless there are extenuating circumstances; injury, poor academic, etc.

quote:

Originally posted by Prepster:
Sometimes "love for the game" leads to doing what's best in the long run for your career in it.

Your son decided to play. That's great for him. My son needed the time to be used in another way. To insinuate that one loved the game more than another is a mistake.

Not insinuating anything. If a player loves to play the game, wants to play and there is nothing wrong with the players health, let them play and they should play. Is it true that some players love to play more than others.... yes, as in anything else in life (not judging your son). Some players, even after senior HS, love nothing more than to play the game and would not even contemplate taking the summer off from playing.

I was not knocking your sons decision. Not sure why you're protective of that. Just giving the readers something to think about in accordance with the original question posted. I did this with an example that you don't always have to have a reason to play, other than the player wanting to do nothing more in the summer than play baseball.

In other words its Ok to let them play just because they want to play and love to play and not just because its the next showcase, or because the coach from XYZ University is going to be there as it had been the past few years before graduation.

I don't feel anyone needs to defend their position or argue about anything.

I think all the points brought up are good legitimate points... Even mine!

There can be no question about Prepsters son. What he accomplished in college is amazing. Then he played professional baseball, then he went into coaching. Guess one could assume he really loves the game. Sounds like a "lifer" to me!

Sometimes I think these discussions involve too much defense of personal decisions. That is one area where I have an advantage, it sure doesn't have anything to do with intelligence. We base our thoughts on seeing thousands of cases each year rather than looking at things from an individual perspective. What works for one son, might not work so well for another. There is no clear cut road map for each individual. People have experienced success in many different ways.

I still think the summer is baseball season. If someone is not playing it doesn't change that fact. There are many factors involved in not playing. Might be the coaches advise, agents advice, injury, academics, conditioning, etc., etc.

However, if the only reason is the player just doesn't want to play, I would question their love for the game. While some might think this is not that important. I will always think it is!

quote:

Originally posted by PGStaff:
I don't feel anyone needs to defend their position or argue about anything.

Agreed. It's one reason why I always hesitate to post at times. Seems like someone always feels the need to defend what they decided or posted, rather than just lay it out there and let readers decided whats best for them.

I really did not intend my post to be any type of judgment on Prepsters son or anyone elses. Just another view for the decision to play or not.

In our area, we have the Ban Johnson and M.I.N.K leagues for our college players to play in. My son will play in one this summer prior to heading to the University. He's a pitcher so he will only take the mound once a week. It's more or less to stay fresh.

His high school coach is a former minor leaguer and very good about ensuring he is not overused. For that, we are thankful.

The reason I brought my son's case up in the first place is that I've had a number of college coaches say to me over the years that one of the biggest problems they face is that of having their Freshman pitchers arrive worn out or injured. Since they're almost by definition among the best high school pitchers in their class, in many cases they've been pitched up to (and, occasionally beyond) their limits by both their high school and summer coaches. In many cases, no one one involved really intends to stretch them beyond their reasonable limits; but, it gets rationalized for any number of reasons. As a result, many college coaches find themselves dealing with a range of conditions extending from "dead" arms to career-threatening surgery instead of being able to have them available to compete against the more experienced members of their staff.

I would be the first to agree that summer pitching after a player's senior year in high school need not necessarily lead to this result; but, it happens more than many college coaches would like to see. Fall baseball demands one's very best form going into it. The point is simply to find the approach that would seem to carry one into it on that basis best.

quote:

Originally posted by PGStaff:
I don't feel anyone needs to defend their position or argue about anything.

I wholeheartedly agree with that statement. 2013 Parent asked for help. All we can do is offer our opinions, advice and experience and let them make the decision that's right for their family. I've always thought that if you get all the information you need, then the decision you make IS the right one. Don't second guess yourself, it's too late. What's right for you and what's right for me could easily be two different things.

My son (position player) did attend a month-long summer session "in between." We had begun debating whether or not he should play summer ball at least a year ahead of time. This site was instrumental in us deciding that, YES, he should play as he'll need to be ready for not only baseball in the fall, but the rigorous workouts.

Then the college asked him to come for the summer. So this would keep him from playing with his regular summer team. They pitched it as being beneficial to the player/student in terms of baseball, workouts, classes, getting acclimated to the campus when there weren't 20,000 people there.

It was incredibly difficult for him but I also believe it was incredibly beneficial for him. And, per my previous comment, I would never second guess that decision because we looked at it from about ten different angles.

If the information we had led us to believe he'd be better off staying home and playing summer ball, then I'd be standing by that decision today, I'm sure.

I guess the one stand I would make is that I can't see how it would help a position player to "take the summer off." There is too much going on in the fall and too much at stake to be going in there cold.

Trust me, if your player thinks he works out hard now, just wait until the university's Strength and Conditioning guy gets ahold of him!

quote:

I guess the one stand I would make is that I can't see how it would help a position player to "take the summer off." There is too much going on in the fall and too much at stake to be going in there cold.

Trust me, if your player thinks he works out hard now, just wait until the university's Strength and Conditioning guy gets ahold of him!

Truer words were never spoken; IMO... But, to each his own as they do have to make their own way!

quote:

Originally posted by Prime9:
The other side, is NOT to play after the high school season and then report to FALL practice expecting peak performance against very seasoned competition. Not a good decision unless there are extenuating circumstances; injury, poor academic, etc.

I don't think that anyone ever suggested a player do nothing and show up cold. It was about other alternatives that may prove to be better options, just a good idea to know there is more than one way to skin a cat.

We listened to son's pitching coach, go play, and that is what he did, limited innings, the following summer because it was perhaps a very long season, after pitching the most innings for a freshman since 2000 he needed a rest. This ultimately led to missing out at the cape. I think the experience even if a few innings, would have been more meaningful than playing travel ball before he entered on the college scene.

Prepster brings up a good point, because one decides to take up another option, in no way does that mean that the love of the game doesn't exist.

I don't think there is a need for argument, just good discussion.

For any player that feels that they need to "do nothing", I would question commitment.

quote:

TPM
Prepster brings up a good point, because one decides to take up another option, in no way does that mean that the love of the game doesn't exist.

My son (2012, pitcher) is planning to play with the same travel team he played with last summer. He is looking forward so much that I'm afraid he's going to look past spring! He can't wait to be with "his boys" again and playing baseball with guys that love it as much as he does. And to be honest, I am looking forward to seeing some of the parents again...we made some great friends in travel ball. My son even said that it will be more "fun" this year since most of the guys have already signed their NLI with various colleges and the pressure is off.
We are fortunate that both his high school coach and his summer coaches are very conscious of not over-using his arm. I hope he enjoys this last summer before college...I want him to just be a kid before going to college and having to grow up quick.

quote:

Originally posted by cb12:
My son (2012, pitcher) is planning to play with the same travel team he played with last summer. He is looking forward so much that I'm afraid he's going to look past spring! He can't wait to be with "his boys" again and playing baseball with guys that love it as much as he does. And to be honest, I am looking forward to seeing some of the parents again...we made some great friends in travel ball. My son even said that it will be more "fun" this year since most of the guys have already signed their NLI with various colleges and the pressure is off.
We are fortunate that both his high school coach and his summer coaches are very conscious of not over-using his arm. I hope he enjoys this last summer before college...I want him to just be a kid before going to college and having to grow up quick.

Congratulations! Your situation is a good one as he can enjoy this Season, his Senior year and the last Summer before College. Encourage him to have fun but continue to focus on getting his "work" in.

quote:

Originally posted by Prime9:
Congratulations! Your situation is a good one as he can enjoy this Season, his Senior year and the last Summer before College. Encourage him to have fun but continue to focus on getting his "work" in.

Thank you! We feel very fortunate that he will be playing with a great program in both the spring and summer. I'm not too worried about him keeping focused and getting his work in. The kid has a work ethic that puts many (including me! lol) to shame!