Thought We Were Done - New Predicament - Need to Advise Son and Don't Know What to Do

I am going through the recruiting process myself and certainly not an expert but to me, your situation would be an easy one for me.  You have to do what is best for your son.  Whatever you think that is.

Which school would he choose if he was not playing baseball?

There's another thread going about the recruiting process and "slimy" coaches.  Putting myself in the coach's shoes I guess this scenario might be the kind of thing they face with players.

I say honor the commitment that's been made.

Visit juco and see what he thinks.  Coach at D1 may not like it; but he has not put any skins in the game and know that is a risk.  If he chooses to move; then he will need to call the coach personally to let him know.

If he will prosper on the field at the D-1 and get playing time quickly (rarely the case) then 4 years of stability at a program where his value can grow is worthy of consideration.

If he does not expect to get much action at a D-1 as a Freshman, and would start at the JUCO and baseball is his love, I can appreciate the allure. JUCO's are not as easy as they appear from the outside looking in. All Baseball is extremely competitive for starting positions. And, the recruiting process after JUCO can be challenging as well.

That said, my son went to 2 JUCO's in two years (playing every game) and transferred to a quality D-2 where he played every game. It was a tremendous experience and one that you will never replicate in all likelihood. If he loves the game, go where he will play as quickly as possible.

There were many disgruntled parents and players when JUCO transfers arrived on the D-2 campus and they were still sitting on the bench after two years on the team.

It's a tough spot.

 

Your son has made a commitment to the D1. As parents we want our kids to live up to their commitments.

 

At the same time he has to do what is best for him and your family.  Not to sound brutal, but have no doubt that the college program would do what is best for it.

 

Visit the juco and see of it is a good fit.  If so, go back to the D1 and talk to the coach.  Be straight about the whole situation.

 

Look at it this way... If you had accepted an unpaid internship at a company, and then the next day another company offered you the same exact position, only they were willing to pay you to do it - would you take the job?

 

Maybe it would be criticized as being a "me-first" attitude - but at the end of the day your ultimate responsibility lies with yourself and your family.

The thing to remember is this is business basically.  

The coaches don't care about your son.  The D1, no doubt, brought in other guys at his position, maybe giving them some sort of assistance.  Is he viewed as depth? Is he viewed as a two year "bench" guy who might develop into a starter? Is he the backup incase one of the "money" guys gets injured, quits or can't make grades?  The coaches are salesmen when it comes to recruiting....they have to be.  If the really need a SS for example, they are going to bring in at least a coupe of HS kids and probably look for transfers from JCs or other D1 or D2 programs too.  

If the point is to play ball it is a no brainer.  The JC is investing in him.  There will be competition there as well, but, they have a vested interest in his playing.  He will get the first two years of his education completed either way.  

He may be viewed as a "me first" guy by the coach, but, make no mistake, the coach is the exact same way.  He spent a decent amount of time this summer buttering up kids that are going to get cut this winter.  

Sadly, the last game played just for fun in the last game of high school.  After that, it is business.  

I'd agree with this approach.  The kid made a commitment to the D1, but did the D1 make a commitment to the kid?  Assuming you have a good relationship with the D1 staff, it is worth a conversation.  You really need to determine what the commitment level of the D1 is.  It's a dog eat dog world out there.  It's just me, but if I am the D1 coach and my last walk on came to me with this situation, I just might say "that's awesome, good for you, I'll see you in 2 years."  If it's my ace pitcher, well that's a different story.   

If the coach is a decent guy I am sure he will understand and basically say the same thing.  

A co workers son got a nice scholarship to a mid level D1, hometown school.  He rotated in the starting lineup as a freshman.  He was scheduled to start as a sohp.  Not easy at a D1.  He tore the bicep muscle off of the bone lifting weights that offseason.  Redshirted his second year.  After being cleared medically he had the same injury occur again.  

The coach basically told him he was done with baseball at the school....he could move on if he wanted to play somewhere else or he could stay on as a student only and keep the scholarship.  He stayed in school and was done playing.  So, in this case they were willing to eat the money but not the roster spot.  Maybe because of injury the money doesn't count against them the last two years?  

Either way....it is the wild west out there.  

http://community.hsbaseballweb...ited-for-2014?page=1

 

PHS, this is my son's story which is very similar, though not exact. Feel free to ask any questions whether here or PM

You other option is to play through the fall at the D1, if cut or it doesn't look like its working out he can transfer to a JC at that time.  I'd ignore the money part of it for now and look at the opportunity.  If the JC is interested today, they will be interested 3 months from now....perhaps with no scholarship, but JC's are pretty cheap.

Personally, this perspective is  a bit a bit harsh, for me.  D1 baseball certainly can be a business. I fully appreciate some coaches are jerks but I also appreciate those experiences don't translate across the broad landscape of college baseball.

Not every coach is a salesman to be assessed in a negative way and I would venture to say most coaches do care about their players, as people, students and athletes.

The concept of going where they "invest" money in a player truly is the business perspective, but one I think needs serious examination, especially when that money and recruiting comes so late in the game.

By an analogy, D3 coaches do not invest any money in the players they recruit. On the other hand, many truly are teachers and coaches and they invest heavily, from an emotional perspective in the development of their players both on the field and off.

PHS1984, I would offer that there are different and additional perspectives to consider.  Being a recruited walk-on is iffy and can be a tough route, with some coaches and programs.

On the other hand, having a coaching staff come in late with an offer of the type your son received also can be iffy.  Your son knows nothing of substance about the JC program, coaches and players, from what you have posted.Your son was not in their plans until they lost a player to the draft, and now he is a top recruit? Remember, the draft was in early June. It took this staff 7 weeks to plan for this and then to cold call your son with this offer? 

Only you and your son can balance the credibility of the coaching staff which followed your son and "stayed in touch for a number of years," and the opportunity that might provide with the credibility and opportunity presented by the late to the party coach offering a full ride to replace the ace of their staff. JC vs 4 year is also a factor.  Academics and college "fit" are also factors.

Personally, I think you need a lot more information on the JC program, coaches and the players.  Making a decision of this type based on a phone call and the offer your son heard seems thin and tenuous. I fully appreciate how those words reverberate with your son. My guess is the JC coach did too and knew exactly how to phrase that offer for maximum impact.  Without your son having watched practices, met the entire staff, talked with them for a lengthy period, visited the school, with truly having a  feeling on "fit" makes me think you and your son need to do much more to fairly balance the risks of the walk-on with the coaches who were in this for the long haul with the with a late offer, which taken literally, means this coaching staff has extremely high expectations for your son, but there is little on your side for you son to understand what is included in their "expectations."

This JC opportunity may be fantastic.  I am not "sold" that you have enough of the right information to know. If it is fantastic, I think you would be fine to take it based on everything else you have posted about the D1. If it is fantastic, one might also speculate the D1 could surprise, with the way you have described things, with their response once they know of the JC.

Good points.  On the "if it's my ace pitcher", it's obviously not, because he isn't giving him any money. 

""Personally, this perspective is  a bit a bit harsh, for me.  D1 baseball certainly can be a business. I fully appreciate some coaches are jerks but I also appreciate those experiences don't translate across the broad landscape of college baseball.

Not every coach is a salesman to be assessed in a negative way and I would venture to say most coaches do care about their players, as people, students and athletes.""

 

Just going off of my experience. I am sure there are others that have had different experiences.  That is what makes posting a question so great, a person can get different perspectives.  I would say most coaches care about their players in as much as a boss cares about their employees.  It varies greatly place to place. Some are very into the schooling part of it and some just want you eligible and its about baseball only.  Either approach can work I guess.  

Leftside, I could not agree more with this summary.  These observations are so much on point and why I thought far more info was needed on the JC side to compare the two options more fairly, with the perspective more info on the JC offer might also provide more helpful info, one way or the other, on the D1 walk-on status.

You make a lot of really good points, especially the draft being 7 weeks ago.  Solid for sure.  I agree research is necessary, and the OV should help with that.  However, I would definitely lean towards the JC.  A recruited Walk On Spot is tenuous at best.  Many say, "Go where you are loved.", and I believe in that philosophy.  The D-1 hasn't shown any love (By love I mean Benjamins), and because of that, you don't really know where you stand with them.  The JC has shown you love (Benjamins), so they have to be the leader in most cases.  By the way, going to the JC for one year with the scholarship, would allow you to look somewhere else if it isn't a good fit.  You really wouldn't have much to lose.

 

 

I certainly would agree with this....the more info the better.  

It did not occur to me the draft being in June and here we are end of July before the JC made their offer....maybe they were told the kid was not going to sign, then he did. 

It does seem a bit odd.  

I know when my son was at a JC they brought in pitchers all the way into January.  They had 4 open spots for their pitching staff and brought in over 34 pitchers to try out.  Many said they were "recruited" although Ca JCs can't give money.  The also brought in a couple of former D1 recruits that got cut in Dec and also had a 25 year old freshman who ended up making the team.  

I have no problem with a coach saying, hey I like your game, but, I have 5 other guys coming in that are good too.  What I have a problem with is a coach being misleading (not trying to say any coach relating to the OP is misleading at all).  My son was told by this coach that he was his #1 recruit he was going after for his position, the coach turing his computer monitor so he could see it with his name on the top of a long list of recruits.  In talking to other kids once he arrived he learned about 20 kids were told the same thing.  

Live and learn.  

ryno, all good perspectives. My overall impression on the lack of information on the JC is in play. One area I would come down on the other side is the conclusion of "nothing to lose."

Leaving baseball aside, the one year at the JC could have some academic risks, depending on the 4 year and the ability/inability to transfer the JC units.

Since our son went the D3 route, I tend not to make as much of the "Benjamins" as others. 

"Benjamins" can come with so much else tied with them at the college level, not the least of which are expectations and performance.  In my view, unbalanced perspectives between a coaching staff and the recruit about  "Benjamin" related expectations, as contrasted with performance,  are a main reason so many relationships go South after the first year. Personally, if the "Benjamin" is to be a critical factor, then I believe the coaching staff needs to be very open about what expectations and performance are tied with them and the recruit needs to be fully understanding of those and in a very solid position to  take them on without hesitation.

This of course leaves out what the JC coach implied but never said...about every other returning pitcher and recruited pitcher...a kid they offered without any prior contact and  in Mid July suddenly is #1? Perhaps it is just me, but I would be very direct with the JC coach on why a recruit jumps to #1 over every returning pitcher and recruit.

Before our son's senior year in college a D1 coach offered him a transfer option with the "guarantee" he would start for them at shortstop.  The first thing we did was look at the returning players and recruits.  Between those, there were 3 shortstops including 2 JC guys, one a JC All-American who was coming from 1/2 way across the Country..  One was listed as their top recruit expected to make immediate impact contribution.

In our situation, that created directed questions for the HC.

If the OP's son is at the talent level that he displaced everyone else returning and each recruit, the HC should be willing to say that just as the HC who tried to recruit our son did when we asked.

 

My son started out in JC,  He wasn't recruited out of high school.  He had a great year, was first team all region catcher and when his coach resigned after the season he received several D1 offers.  He chose a good mid major D1 where he thought he could compete to start.  He did win the starting catcher job as a soph, but in the first inning of the second game of the year he broke his glove hand taking second on a throw home with a head first slide.  He was in a cast for 6 weeks unable to swing a bat for 8 weeks.  He wasn't red shirted due to the fact that as their #4 hitter he had 4 RBI's in his first 6 at bats and they wanted him back for the end of the season and the tournament.  Well he came back and struggled.  It's tough to take a bat out of a kids hands for 8 weeks (he wasn't allowed to hit for 2 weeks after the cast came ff because of fear the vibrations would injure the hand).  We were worried his scholarship may have been in jeopardy.  He did return the next 2 years, his junior and senior years and drove in over 40 runs both years and actually got drafted as a pitcher after his Jr. year.

 

I don't think if he had been in a JC when he broke his hand he would have generated much if any interest at the D1 level, his career may have been over.  My point is if you are getting an opportunity to play D1 ball there's no guarantee you will get that offer after JC.  

I do agree that there needs to be further research and questions asked. Although you discount the money involved because your son went the D-3 route, I do not.  Generally, I don't believe a coach offers a full scholarship if you are not at least in his future plans, or that he believes you can contribute.  That at least puts you on much higher ground than a Preferred Walk On.  My son was offered a Preferred Walk On spot at a PAC 12 school, and we turned it down.  I just am not a big fan, and I don't believe you are a part of their vision if you come in as one.  IMHO, they are just taking a flier on you, and if you work out great, but they don't expect you too.  They have nothing to lose if you don't cut it.  Go where the money is in most cases, unless of course you have plenty of money, and the D-1 is your preferred school.  I am purely speaking from a baseball perspective.  There are so many variables for each family.  Our family thought the fully paid JC scholarship was best for Ryno, but that may not be the best for all.

Nowhere in any of this has anyone discussed the academic side of things.

 

JuCo can be great for baseball, but most (admittedly not all) D1's represent better opportunities to build a foundation for life after baseball.  If your son goes to the JuCo, he hopes there will be a D1 degree in his future. Will it be as good as the one he has now?  I'm glad your son has options now, but you're not describing a pro prospect, so keep in mind how his life might be different at age 23 looking forward from there under the two options.

 

As to how to handle it, try this line of thought.  Your son has no NLI and is not a "counter" towards the D1's team roster cap.  Are there more than 35 guys coming in this fall?  Because if so, he's at risk of getting cut.  Or, he could play all year and get cut next spring. 

 

If you're comfortable with the academics of the JuCo option, then I would suggest your son go to his D1 coach and say,

 

"Coach, I love it here.  But honestly, I just got an offer to attend JuCo for free.  I'm thinking maybe I should go there for two years.  If I did that, would I be welcome back here in 2 years?"

 

First, I think a coach would be pretty hard pressed to hold this question against you, especially since it posits a continuing and long term commitment to his program.  It also puts the coach into the position of being a pretty big heel if he doesn't appreciate the importance of handling the ever-rising expenses of attending college.

 

Second, you could well force the D1 coach's hand.  Maybe he knows darned well he got a steal with your son.  Maybe he had a kid go pro recently, too.  Maybe he could "find" some money for your kid but has been taking him for granted.  It's not at all unusual for this scenario to end with your son staying at the D1, with an NLI and some scholarship money.

 

Third, you can ask this question without having committed to leaving.  So if the D1 coach can't offer you anything, the next day you can come back and say, "Coach, I've slept on it, and I've decided I'm going to stay right here."  No bridges burned, and your son is at a school where, by rights, the coach should appreciate the commitment he's made to the program.

Point of emphasis:  Mom and Dad are not involved in the conversations.  Son must handle this himself.

ryno, I could not agree more that there are many variables and each decision will be evaluated from different perspectives. The value of the HSBBW is providing resources on the perspectives so the OP can pick from those which seem appropriate for them and their son's situation.

Where I do think there needs to be a more common appreciation, though, is the "Benjamin's" probably only put a recruit on a "higher ground" in terms of "opportunity."

Once everyone is on the field and competing, it us usually performance and production which plays.  When that does not correlate with the Benjamins, the potential for discord exists.

And, of course, Benjamin's play little (might play some though) role in College Summer Wood Bat leagues.

PHS, I skimmed, but didn't take time to read through all of the previous posts, so I apologize if this has already been stated.  If you're going to explore this opportunity with the JUCO, be sure to ask the JUCO coach if he will be supportive of your son moving on after just one year in the program if he has a good year.  Some JUCO coaches aren't excited about letting guys go after one year, and I have heard about some (not a lot) that take steps to limit guys from moving on after one year.

Love MidloDad's approach.  That is great advice.  If I was in your shoes, my son would be having "that conversation" with that D1 Coach right now.

 

Good luck whatever you decide.

All great points which I don't have much more to add other than when (if) he visits the JC a good question to ask about is how many D1 "drop downs" have they added in the past? Many JC's add players all the way up until the season as players at D1's figure out they are not in their coaches plans like they might have initially thought.

 

Best of luck, 

Here in California, there are no JC scholarships, which doesn't mean a great deal because in-state JC tuition is quite inexpensive.

 

I'm curious... for the OP, what does the "100%" cover (is room and board, books, etc. included )and how much $ does that equate to?  How much will you ultimately have to pay per year for your son to attend the JC vs the D1?  Of course, if you aren't comfortable stating numbers here, that's OK but if nothing else, having those exact #s broken down may help in the effort to weigh all factors.

 

For others in states other than California, what are typical JC scholarship offers and what do they cover?  

Midlo just hit a homerun.  Exactly how it should be handled.

"Coach, I love it here.  But honestly, I just got an offer to attend JuCo for free.  I'm thinking maybe I should go there for two years.  If I did that, would I be welcome back here in 2 years?"

I don't trust people I don't know well enough to ask questions like this. Most coaches/managers/bosses would decide in their mind at that moment to dump you - you are not really committed to us.

My son attended a D2 JuCo in Virginia (in-state) after HS.  By NJCAA D2 rules the school could offer scholarships for tuition, but not housing/living expenses.  But as I understand it, the Commonwealth does not allow JuCo's to offer scholarships.  FWIW - there's only 4 JuCo's that field baseball teams in the state.

They were allowed to offer "discounts" for out-of-state students (usually athletes) to bring the tuition down closer to in-state levels.

 

My son received a Commonwealth Grant that covered 95% of his tuition.  It was not related to being an athlete.

 

He had a teammate that was offered a "full ride" (tuition, books and housing as well as a stipend) from a JuCo in TX.  He turned it down when he was drafted. 

Just a question, does this part of the OP matter:

 

"At the D1 he has went through registration, orientation, has his roommates.  Payments are due in about a week." He is registered and has gone through orientation. I don't know the rules on this. 

What does D1 want him for-pitching?  His numbers seem just average for  RHP. He's gotten positive feedback on his catching, but you admitted he's only a decent bat, and needs more work on hitting if he's playing in college.

the fact that u did not mention his academic goals is curious to me. How were his grades? Does the D1 have a strong program in his major? If he goes JCo will he follow better baseball opportunities in two yrs, or best fit academically as well?

D1 school continued can to follow him so they liked something they saw. Ask if there is opportunity for money Soph yr.  Even if he doesn't play a lot as Fresh P he could be getting good P instruction and could improve enough to play more Soph yr.

IMO many players worry too much about not starting as Fresh. Look into both programs and see who has best instruction and who would help son most reach his playing goals, and do the same for each school academically.

good luck

Thanks for all the good information/comments/feedback.  Won our game today, so we've got at least one more day before we have to discuss this. 

 

With regards to some of the questions:

 

1 - Yes he will be handling all the conversations.  He handled all recruiting and visits himself, so he will be doing this also.

 

2- With regards to cost, we are looking at 25K/year for the D1 (and we've been told that there "will" be money next year).  At the JC, the coach quoted on the phone was "100% of the cost of attending the school including tuition, books, fees, room, and board".  I listened to make sure I got this correct.

 

3 - With regards to talent, if he had 3 more mph, we've been told he would be a top recruit based on his control, pitchability, and on mound presence.  But they also know he does not have much projectability left (very stout 195 at 6").  So whatever he gets after this is going to be from hard work, or some really late growth spurts.  He has lost 6 games over the last 4 of high school and summer ball while winning at least 60.  ERA is well below 1.0. 

 

4 - Solid academic kid who will do a dual major in business and kinesiology, so he will have a lot of "basic" classes that he will need to get out of the way the first couple of years anyway.

 

5 - He is going on the visit Monday or Tuesday, and I'll print out this and make sure that all of your questions and concerns will be addressed.

 

6 - When he contacts the D1 coach, it will be face to face and not via text or phone call.

 

 

Everything seems have been said but I don't think it's a tough call at all. Do what's best for your son. Visit and see if he likes it. Hopefully he will know after visiting whether that is the place for him.

juco only option here all things considered... D1 coach will not it give it another thought.... has no money in player... does not see him contributing early anyway.

That doesn't matter.  The one thing that would make a difference - but apparently doesn't exist in this situation - would be if the player had already taken a summer school course from the D1 which was paid for with a summer scholarship from the baseball program.  If that were the case, the player would be considered a transfer student, and the rules for a 4-2-4 transfer would be in effect after time spent at the JUCO.

? U have no idea when coach sees him contributing. Just because they got him late and no money was left, he can still find himself playing.  Coaches will play the player that can help team win. I've seen many walk one or preferred walk on go on to play. 

The decision needs to be made with academics  in play too not just baseball. 

You are correct , walk-ons do often contribute, from reading OP's posts it's my opinion that Juco is the best route for said player . As far as academics are we talking g about a high academic D1 because if we are not then two years at a juco and transfering later will have little impact on the degree . So go ahead ad go to the D1 without money and more times than not be will either not play as a freshman, Get redshirted or end up doing a 4-2-4



> On Jul 26, 2015, at 10:39 PM, HS Baseball Web <alerts@hoop.la> wrote:
>

By you own admission he was recruited late , if he was ready to make a significant impact at the D1 level as a freshman then they would have found him sooner . Are we talking about an SEC or ACC school ? Then maybe you put your time in and hope to play as a soph or jr. If it's a mid major the. Got juco first and get better I don't care what level you play at , you do not get better on the bench



> On Jul 26, 2015, at 10:39 PM, HS Baseball Web <alerts@hoop.la> wrote:
>