Thoughts on 1960 World Series Game 7

Florida: I had exactly the same reaction: "5ft6 Bobby Shantz" pitching for the Pirates? We talk often here about scouting and piercing the glass ceiling of height for shorter players but I wonder if Shantz would even get a look as a pitcher on a top level HS club these days.

- was stunned out how bad Roberto looked stepping in the bucket a couple of times.

Not to mention he did not field one ball that hit the ground cleanly allowing runners to advance on each occasion.

Also, not much talk about "errors" everything seemed to be a "hit".

I think Shantz was a Yankee Pitcher. No way anyone of the stature these guys had would be considered these days. I think the Pirates 1st Baseman was 5'10".

When you factor in Pitchers like Bobby Shantz you can begin to understand how the average pitcher size over the history of the game might be about 6'. Not very common today though, outside of Lincecum.

And what about those bats?! They looked like telephone poles! Clemente's was as tall as he was!

quote:

Originally posted by floridafan:
Not to mention he did not field one ball that hit the ground cleanly allowing runners to advance on each occasion.

Also, not much talk about "errors" everything seemed to be a "hit".

I think Shantz was a Yankee Pitcher. No way anyone of the stature these guys had would be considered these days. I think the Pirates 1st Baseman was 5'10".

And what about those bats?! They looked like telephone poles! Clemente's was as tall as he was!

You are right Florida. I was already into my Roberto train of thought! DOY!!!

As a teenager, I saw Roberto Clemente play many times and it was amazing how bad he could look on a pitch and then hammer the next one. He inside-outed the ball to right a lot and swung a huge bat. Somewhere in my garage is an old Clemente model Louisville Slugger on which they have the signiture as Bob Clemente but I never heard people call him that in the 60's although I think they tried to "Americanize" his name when he first came up in the mid 50's. I saw him strike out 3 times in a game in the Astro Dome when I was at a game.

How about the check swings? Did notice Maris jumping in the HP umps' face after he called a strike on what was obviously (at least in today's game) a swing? There was another Yankee lefty batter who went so far that his bat was pointing to right field and it was called a ball.

I was amazed at the weak hitting mechanics of so many hitters. Amazing differences from what we see today.

That said, I remember running home from school to catch the game on TV (had the transistor radio hiding in my desk during school), only to see the Pirates walk off with the series. Grew up expecting the Yankees to win all the time.

I had to smile at the mention of 'weak hitting mechanics'.

Clemente and many others developed their own style that worked. For example, Clemente had 3000 hits in his career. He also hit home runs into the upper deck with both feet apparently in the air.

The fact that there were no strike outs in the game pitched by very talented ball players should speak in favor of the batting mechanics.

Unorthodox ? Yes. But also very effective.

It may infer that what is taught today are 'weak hitting mechanics'.

The announcers called him Bob during the broadcast. First time I heard that. But this WAS before my time. ;-)

quote:

Originally posted by Three Bagger:
As a teenager, I saw Roberto Clemente play many times and it was amazing how bad he could look on a pitch and then hammer the next one. He inside-outed the ball to right a lot and swung a huge bat. Somewhere in my garage is an old Clemente model Louisville Slugger on which they have the signiture as Bob Clemente but I never heard people call him that in the 60's although I think they tried to "Americanize" his name when he first came up in the mid 50's. I saw him strike out 3 times in a game in the Astro Dome when I was at a game.

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"weak hitting mechanics"

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I also have to say as was alluded to above it seemed the umps had quite a bit longer fuse than they do today... obviously it being game 7 of the WS had something to do with it.

I also thank publicly Bob Costas for being such a student of our great game. Thank you Bob for putting this together. You can see the enthusiasm in his eyes!

I hated it but I didn't get to see this historical show. Thanks everyone for your views on it. I would be interested to hear more thoughts about the broadcast. It won't spoil it for me--I know how it ended!

It's MLB Network, so not to worry, it'll re-air any number of times!

Clemente is the forebear of guys like his future teammate Manny Sanguillen or a modern day guy like Vlad Guerrero -- "you cannot swim off the island, you have to hit your way off" is the mantra.

The "bail and whale" style of swinging was quite common. Going for a HR meant trying to turn on it/pull it. You can get a lot of video on Mays and others doing that. But the view of Clemente practically corkscrewing himself into the ground on a particularly vicious swing and miss made me wonder how he'd be treated if he came up today swinging like that!

For both sides, you can see that there were just many players who went up there to make contact and hope for finding a hole -- as opposed to today, when even middle infielders want to hit 25 HR/year. The Pirates' cleanup hitter/first baseman had, I think they said, 7 HR on the year. The fact that the Pirates hit 3 HR in that one game was noteworthy; I think they'd hit only 1 or 2 in the preceding 6 games combined. And the idea that Mazeroski had game winning HR's in game 1 and game 7 is really amazing given how seldom he hit them over his career. (Makes you wonder how come he wasn't the series MVP, doesn't it?)

Remember that most of those guys were not making big bucks back then. Mantle, Maris, Ford and Berra maybe (by the standards of the day) but not many others. This was well before free agency. I thought Dick Groat's comments about how teams stayed together (thanks to the reserve clause) and bonded over the years was really on the mark. The players were part of the community and the community supported them. They weren't the sort of uber athletes we see today. Today's game is more of a spectacle of modern athleticism (sometimes with the aid of modern chemistry) as opposed to something where you root for "your" team. Maybe that's why modern ballparks all have those concourses with amusements other than the game itself -- people are there to be entertained, not to be part of a community experience.

As for the umpires -- what do you suppose that game would've been like if Bob Davidson had been involved? I don't think any pitcher ever came to a "discernable stop" with runners on base.

3bagger: the base running play you mentioned about Mantle was amazing.... mistakes on both sides there.

It was heart warming to watch the standing ovation in the theater for Hal Smith.. somewhere between an average and journeyman catcher who hit the big HR to put the Pirates ahead in the bottom of the 8th. It was an amazing thing to see the genuine spontaneity of it 50 years later.

I laughed out loud when they showed Bob Prince giving ever so brief interviews of the Pirate players in the clubhouse after the game. Gino Cimoli, who had pinch hit in the game and moved his feat more in the batters box than any little leaguer I have ever seen said laughingly: "they set all the records but we won the game". Yes... they beat the mighty Yanks!

bothsportsdad,

I had read about that Mantle play and seen a couple of photos but was wondering how it looked on film. Thanks for your takes on this film and I hope to see it soon. Did they take a lot of time out on the Kubek injury at shortstop?

It appeared to me that guys came in from the bullpen and then pitched with no additional throws off the game mound.

Did I see that right? I only saw a few innings but that is what it looked like to me... That would speed the game up.... Wow

quote:

Originally posted by Three Bagger:
bothsportsdad,

I had read about that Mantle play and seen a couple of photos but was wondering how it looked on film. Thanks for your takes on this film and I hope to see it soon. Did they take a lot of time out on the Kubek injury at shortstop?

yes it was a pretty good delay. Kubek went down like he'd been shot. He complained he couldnt breath. I think it hit him in the adams apple and may have caused some swelling to his windpipe. They held him overnight at the hospital even tho he left the field on his own power.

The Mantle play... Berra ripped a ground ball right down the first base line and the Pirate first baseman had been holding Mantle on and did not seem to move very far at all off the bag with the pitch. Rocky Nelson was literally inches of the bag when he snagged it and he stepped on the bag. This took the force off of Mantle. Of course Nelson should have had the presence to throw to second and get the double play... good throws would have made it a cinch and the Pirates win by one run at that point. Mantle had not taken much of a lead and while the commentary was he should have taken off and gotten in a run down he was able to get his hand back to the home side of the bag in an athletic move ahead of the tag. Interesting to me would have been the decision at that point had Mantle indeed been tagged out as to whether the runner had crossed home plate first as this sequence was just bang bang.

... all good stuff

bothsportsdad,
Thanks for the description of what happened on those plays. As for the comments about some guys swings being much less disciplined or anything like today's swings, I noticed the same thing in the Larsen perfect game by both teams. I don't think they developed hitters the same way in those days.

quote:

Originally posted by Three Bagger:
bothsportsdad,
Thanks for the description of what happened on those plays. As for the comments about some guys swings being much less disciplined or anything like today's swings, I noticed the same thing in the Larsen perfect game by both teams. I don't think they developed hitters the same way in those days.

3bagger.. you know florida talked above about Bobby Shantz. I really wondered as I watched Berra if he would get a look these days. He was so short and POP times werent really an issue in the 50's as very few players ran. Am I off base guys? If he wouldnt get a look what does it say about the current state of scouting? Berra is a different matter than Shantz... Berra was one of the all time great catchers who ever put on the gear. Would he be today if given a chance?

I know what you mean about Berra. I think today sometimes the scouting gets too caught up in if a player "looks" a certain way or has a certain size. I know that Berra had a lot of trouble as a young catcher even to the point of playing the outfield a lot as a rookie until the former Yankee star catcher Bill Dickey took him under his wing. His bat is what really caught the scouts eyes at first. He certainly didn't look like a prototype outfielder either. Guys like John Kruk, Tony Gwynn, Kirby Puckett, and Pedroia do sneak through but I often think many guys are missed because they don't fit the 6ft.3inch 220 lb model ballplayer image. So I don't know if he would have gotten the chance to catch in the Major Leagues. Of course all the players were on average, smaller in his days. A lot of people don't know that Shantz won 24 games in 1952.

I think that as the financial compensation dramatically increased, MLB has been able to scour the earth for the finest athletes that play baseball. Over the years I believe that they have sought (and found) bigger, faster, stronger players. I have no doubt that many of the players that played in the 40's 50's and 60's would not get a look today.

I mean Bobby Shantz at 5'6" 135Lbs starter for the NY Yankees, I don't believe that could happen today.

The money and investment is too substantial today, too many players chasing the dream. I don't think it was quite that way back in the "Golden Age of Baseball".

could Shantz compete today in MLB? This is the real question. I know a few years back much was made of Mike Hampton's size. He was listed at 5ft 10 but of course the "official" sizes are always a couple of inches north of reality.

MLB looks for talent. They project based on size so the bigger guys tend to have an advantage but talent trumps all.

They were smaller back then though. When I played for an Angels rookie ball team I wore a hand me down uniform that Vic Power had used and it was a bit small for me. I'm only 6' on a good day and I was pretty darn skinny back then.

quote:

Originally posted by CADad:
MLB looks for talent. They project based on size so the bigger guys tend to have an advantage but talent trumps all.

They were smaller back then though. When I played for an Angels rookie ball team I wore a hand me down uniform that Vic Power had used and it was a bit small for me. I'm only 6' on a good day and I was pretty darn skinny back then.

CA.. Vic Power! you still have that jersey? He was a very interesting player to me from a historical perspective.

for me the size thing hit me square between the eyes several years ago when I saw up close Dave Cash and Dave Collins.. they were managing minor league teams in A ball. These two guys were very good players in the 70's and early 80's. You dont necessarily expect second basemen to have any size but heck Collins played some first base back in the day. I mean they were tiny... tiny!

Nah. We didn't get to keep them. He played for the Angels back in '65 and I was wearing it in about '74 so it was already pretty worn.

Wow, that's interesting CADad, that you had Vic Power's uniform. What's even more interesting is that they still used those that many years later. That's the minor leagues for you!

Interesting Vic Power note:
On August 14th 1958, Vic became one of the very few guys to steal home twice in the same game. He was a first baseman and he only stole three bases all season. The second steal won the game in the bottom of the 10th inning. Just one of those inexplicable things that happen in baseball.

Not minors. It was similar to the scout ball of today although there were more older players in the mix and sometimes local players from the minors during the off season.

I am a lurker but not poster but this thread definetly caught my eye. My mother saw one professional game in her life....this one with my dad. they paid $2.20 for their bleacher seats. One of my best memories of my parents (both gone)was them telling me about the game later in life ( I was born in 62)....anyway'... I have both stubs in a shadow box with a 60 Maz card....biggest kicker is the program that my dad kept score in for the whole game---with a big STAR for the walk off... they have super 8 film of some of the game, but not the hit...just the pandamonium after... great memory that I never saw

stennet7for7,

Interesting memory! That's some great stuff you have from the game too. So often baseball has a tie-in to memories of our parents if we love the game. By the way, you must be a fan of Rennie Stennett, the Pirates second baseman. I remember that 22-0 game versus the Cubs in September 1975 where he became the only man in that century to go 7 for 7 in a nine inning game.

I watched this last night and enjoyed it thoroughly. In addition to many of the observations already noted, I was struck by the pace of the game - pitchers worked very quickly and the batters were pretty much ready to go after each pitch. I also chuckled as almost every batter warmed up with 2 bats, swinging them as they approached the plate before handing one back to the batboy. Also, when a pitcher came in to pitch in relief, it was interesting to see the batter stand casually by he plate as the picther warmed up.

I had a smile on my face through the entire broadcast.

Clemente was routinely called Bobby by Bob Prince and his radio sidekick Jim Woods. There were nicknames for many of the Pirates. Maz, the Tiger, the Quail, the Dog, the Deacon, the Kitten, the Duck. Prince and Woods themselves went by the nicknames of the gunner and the possum.

Groat, the shortstop won the NL batting title in 1960, and had been a very good basketball player at Duke. (3rd pick in the '52 nba draft).

Clemente used a giant bat. You can get an idea of it from the centerfield shots.

That year's team had a lot of hoopla and enthusiasm surrounding it. They had a lot of narrow victories, and Bob Prince was famous for his "we had'em all the way" call.

We were paying attention to the game somehow in school, and the Maz home run occured when we were on the bus on the way home. I can remember exactly where the bus was when the girl who had the transistor radio said we had won on the home run.

I saw Yogi at a charity signing about 20 years ago and made the mistake of mentioning that game. His face fell like a deflated souffle. You could literally see the pain of it after 30 years. Had I been a little smarter, I wouldn't have mentioned it.