"throwing a player under the bus"

Does the player consistently miss signs? Did he disobey the sign on purpose? It's hard to say when we are not involved with the day to day operations of the program.

Where he hits in the order and what his batting average is has nothing to do with it. Means absolutely nothing. If he was the 8 hole hitter hitting .001 it doesn't change a thing.

Nic is correct we don't have enough information here. Now as far as the coach yelling out you are out of the game , etc etc there is no need for that regardless. Just take the kid out of the line up if he missed a sign, decided to ignore a sign.

What could be the reason for a coach to get this upset? Maybe the kid has missed numerous signs. Maybe the kid refuses to take pitches. I have no idea.

This is a coach that wants control of every pitch to a player at the plate he once called 23 fake bunts in one game.

Just had not seen a player removed for missing a sign, *actually first sign miss* it wasn't pretty, and the coach looked bad with this.

I would like to chalk it up to inexperience, cause he good with everything else. But Would like to see how this guy gets past this issue. He did it the previous year to a kid also and the kid now runs track.

This was a mistake by a coach, it happens. Throwing a player under the bus only reflects on the coach, hopefully he smart enough to realize this after it happens a couple of times.

I was glad to see the term under player thrown under a bus, in the other thread and realized that was what I saw that day. It's a rare event and ugly when experienced.

Nice to see it recognized and glad it's a rare event...

There are a couple of issues.

1. Take sign was missed OR ignored...
Player will say it was missed (supported by parent)
Coach will say it was ignored... and he's the coach.
Whatever, the coach cannot tolerate a missed/ignored sign if he's going to coach effectively.

2. Coach was vocal during game.....
Most will disagree if the word "yelled" is used. I think if a kid is yelled at "YOU'RE OUT OF THE GAME!!!" he would immediately go back to the dugout. Not sure what DB level qualifies as a yell?

Some coaches do yell ---- Some coaches even throw chairs, buckets, coolers, kick dirt etc. ALL parents don't like their kid being yelled at..... That what's known as "between a rock and a hard place".

Fungo

fungo it was a red face yell as only they can be, the batter just stood there for a couple of minutes lost watching the other kid get the equipment on, did say a word took the next two and went and sat down.

Seen another coach do it on a travel team, runner at first missed a hit and run sign, double play happened that would of anyway, and a coach going nuts and not letting it rest, every word rest of the game referred to this sin, close game went to pot the air went out of the whole bunch and they where just glad to get the game over... where they got to hear more rant.

They named this coach, Coach Shaiheead. short for coach.... it was really funny and to this day he still doesn't get it.

Better way for sign discipline, today's players not only bigger, faster, they are smarter.

quote:

Whatever, the coach cannot tolerate a missed/ignored sign if he's going to coach effectively.

Definitely you can't tolerate it when signs are ignored.
But when signs are missed, it's a more complex topic. Ability to read signs varies widely.

Assume you've got motivated/focused players--
Some will get every sign even if you flash them a mile-a-minute. Some will struggle to read signs even if you slow them way down.

I struggled reading signs when I played ball, so I work really hard to make sure that any of my similarly-impaired players get the darned signs.

and this brings up an important point.

Unless you know for sure beyond a shadow of a doubt the kid is purposely ignoring your signs, going ape is not justified. How do you know for sure conference before the all important pitch removes any confusion or indicators back, about the only ways.

I was guilty of going ape after a conference, I felt bad but I got over it, because I knew 100% it was purposeful. looking back now even then I could have done better.

i'm assuming this was your son who was benched?

my guess is the coach would have a different version of events...and if parents are complicit in disrespectful names for the coach, hard to imagine how he could get much of anything accomplished because whatever the kid doesn't like will be ignored.

No not mine... the special name was another team and another league, keep up.

Throwing a player under the bus is just that... No parent did it.

Sometimes questionable coaching needs daylight. Removing, ranting, makes it about the coach, not the kid or the game. Right or wrong, this my conclusion after witnessing these kind of events.

Well, call me crazy but i'm guessing Joe Torre did not apply for the job as freshman baseball coach at your school.

Probably a good guy trying to work with these boys to teach them things about the game, and maybe he would prefer they do as the adult in charge asks them to do (often times for the 1st time in their life).

if it's you kid as i suspect, you won't care what i think because he will always be right in your eyes....if it isn't your kid, maybe consider the sacrifice that man makes to coach your kids and cut him some slack the next time you don't agree with something he does.

quote:

Originally posted by bsballfan:
Well, call me crazy but i'm guessing Joe Torre did not apply for the job as freshman baseball coach at your school.

Probably a good guy trying to work with these boys to teach them things about the game, and maybe he would prefer they do as the adult in charge asks them to do (often times for the 1st time in their life).

if it's you kid as i suspect, you won't care what i think because he will always be right in your eyes....if it isn't your kid, maybe consider the sacrifice that man makes to coach your kids and cut him some slack the next time you don't agree with something he does.

So your the coach that jerks a player out when he misses a sign. Got it.

Me I think I'll pass there's a better way.

justification of bad behavior is just that, making a mistake and learning from them some call experience.

I will choose not to, in my future of throwing a player under the bus, now that I know what it is.


which was the point of this thread, somebody used this phrase and a light clicked on.

This is my final post, and please recal that I was adamant that Tom Coughlin was wrong in what he did....

Do you hesitate in throwing your son's coach under the bus when talking to your son? Is that ok?

And yes, if a kid ignored a take sign because he wanted to swing and disregarded it...I would absolutely take him out. Give Coaches a little more credit, it's easier than you think to tell the difference between a missed sign and a "missed" sign.

quote:

Originally posted by bsballfan:
This is my final post, and please recal that I was adamant that Tom Coughlin was wrong in what he did....

Do you hesitate in throwing your son's coach under the bus when talking to your son? Is that ok?

And yes, if a kid ignored a take sign because he wanted to swing and disregarded it...I would absolutely take him out. Give Coaches a little more credit, it's easier than you think to tell the difference between a missed sign and a "missed" sign.

Once again he was not mine in either instance above.

What's evident in this is you assumption powers. Just amazing insight to tell an missed sign from a disobeyed one. If you have players you suspect of such behavior your doing something wrong, and the sign disobedience is just a symptom.

If a kid refuses to take a pitch when given the take sign he sits. Period , no if ands or buts. If he misses a sign then you make sure he understands that its not going to be tolerated. How do you know the difference? How do you know when he has simply missed a sign or ignored a sign? There are many ways but body language is one. And history of missing signs is another. If I know the kid ignored a sign then he is not going to play again until he understands the deal. If he missed a sign then he will be coached up and we will see if he gets it.

More times than one have I had a kid miss a sign and I have put on the same sign the next pitch to make sure he got it. If I put on a bunt sign and a kid misses it I may put the bunt on the rest of the at bat just to prove a point if the situation dictates I can do it without hurting the team. I have called a TO to talk to the player during an at bat to see whats going on as well.

Every coach is not going to be the same. Some are going to go off when a kid misses a sign. Some are going to wait until they get in the dugout. The best way to avoid this is to not miss signs.

There is no reason for this thread to end up as a coach bashing thread as many times these type of threads do. Its not throwing a kid under the bus to demand that they do things the right way. If you dont want to get your butt ripped then dont miss signs. I dont agree with yelling at a player during games and I dont agree with calling players out in front of the fans and opposing team. But every coach has a different style and demeanor. So dont miss signs if you dont want to get ripped.

quote:

Originally posted by Coach_May:
If a kid refuses to take a pitch when given the take sign he sits. Period , no if ands or buts. If he misses a sign then you make sure he understands that its not going to be tolerated. How do you know the difference? How do you know when he has simply missed a sign or ignored a sign? There are many ways but body language is one. And history of missing signs is another. If I know the kid ignored a sign then he is not going to play again until he understands the deal. If he missed a sign then he will be coached up and we will see if he gets it.

More times than one have I had a kid miss a sign and I have put on the same sign the next pitch to make sure he got it. If I put on a bunt sign and a kid misses it I may put the bunt on the rest of the at bat just to prove a point if the situation dictates I can do it without hurting the team. I have called a TO to talk to the player during an at bat to see whats going on as well.

Every coach is not going to be the same. Some are going to go off when a kid misses a sign. Some are going to wait until they get in the dugout. The best way to avoid this is to not miss signs.

There is no reason for this thread to end up as a coach bashing thread as many times these type of threads do. Its not throwing a kid under the bus to demand that they do things the right way. If you dont want to get your butt ripped then dont miss signs. I dont agree with yelling at a player during games and I dont agree with calling players out in front of the fans and opposing team. But every coach has a different style and demeanor. So dont miss signs if you dont want to get ripped.

Bingo.

Know how you can tell if he missed it or ignored it? Be at practice with him everyday for 4 years. It's easier than you'd think.

quote:

So dont miss signs if you dont want to get ripped.

I seen players more concerned about looking for the signs than the next pitch. It's like two strikes why you looking here.

Somewhere in between a team is formed and they more than want to do your bidding, with out fear of sign loss, and give up the AB so they get the signs right...

If you do not have confidence in them doing your commands with signs or know they won't and or assume they won't, it's just something I've never been a part of or had a problem with except for the one case mention above.

I just do not believe many, if any, would ignore what a coach wants on purpose.

and what I've recently learned is there's a difference between getting ripped and being thrown under a bus.

my sons coach is like this they where not getting sign so he said u miss a sing ur out, out of the game right then and there,1st game of the season best hitter up had a hit and run on runner 1st and 2nd ktd let it go by and throw out at third count is 2and2 coach call time bench the kid and his back up came in to finish at bat.he has also done this when they have a play on for defence and it is missed.like some one said before "we don't what goes on in practice"

showme...I am with BSBALLFAN....you are way out on a limb defending someone pretty close to you.

Signs are the method that baseball teams use to communicate and are a vital part of the game. How long will the QB on the football team be the quarterback if he constantly calls the wrong play? Not long.....How about the point guard who constantly runs the wrong play? Not long... Missing signs is a failure to execute.

Now as a coach, there is a progression. The first missed sign is a matter of circumstance (early in the year, new player not used to my system, etc), but it can also compounded by the game situation (tie game in last inning?). Each situation varies, but you look for a progression.

At the end of every game (especially early in the season) we discuss missed signs (both offense and defense signs). No need to name names, just highlight the problem. Most kids can figure out if they missed a sign.

In the game, the progression usually takes care of itself. Miss the steal sign on the first pitch and you will likely get it on the 2nd pitch. Miss it again and I'll go REAL SLOW on the 3rd pitch. miss it again and I know I have a problem. I'll ask the 1B coach, "did you see it" because sometimes it is me. If he saw it, I'll ask someone on the bench. Most of the time, they saw it too. So, guess where the problem is when everyone saw it but the guy on first base?

Now, following that progression, I have a failure to execute that I can address with the player. Trust me when I tell you that I have heard every excuse. But this is my chance to address a player directly either privately or in front of the team.

I admit that I have never pulled a kid during an at bat, but I was never a paid coach, just a volunteer rec/travel coach. Had I been in a situation where my livelihood depended on executing, I've got no problem with putting someone in who can execute, even if that is as simple as recognizing what play (bunt, steal, H&R, take) I need the offense to execute (same applies defensively).

I did remove a kid immediately after an at bat once and the whole team knew why. Dad was plenty upset. I asked, 'do you get mad when little Johnny disobeys you around the house?". He said "yes" and I said "enough said...see you next practice". Amazingly little Johnny never missed another sign the rest of the year.

So showme, consider the progression each coach goes through: what's the situation, what's the right play, who are the personnel, can we execute if I call it, and then consider the progression once you call it and the kid misses it - has he missed it before, how many times, when, etc, and I can probably conclude that the reaction your coach had was fairly well thought out based on a variety of previous factors, but what do I know?

One last thing to consider...NFHS rules limit you to one offensive timeout per inning, so you can't have a conference every time you need to communicate an important play, hence the need for signs.

Hope that helps...good luck.

quote:

How long will the QB on the football team be the quarterback if he constantly calls the wrong play? Not long.....How about the point guard who constantly runs the wrong play? Not long... Missing signs is a failure to execute.

Schwammi, I not sure this is a good analogy. QBs and point guards are expected to have a high IQ--at least, a high athletic IQ.

Some decent ballplayers who are giving it their best are below average at picking up sign progressions that are delivered at normal speed.

Our JV coach last spring geusstimated that his team was missing about 25% of his live signs. (Not intentionally.)

Full disclosure: one of my sons was a 3-year varsity starter and would run through a brick wall to please his coach, etc., but man alive that boy of mine was dyslexic or something when it came to picking up signs. Hard worker, graduated in the top 20% of his class.

As a coach, I expect and demand that players give 110% effort to pick up signs. Zero tolerance regarding effort. That being said, some are brighter than others.

schwammi I hear you.
It about control and how much different coaches take.
The original one had a sign every pitch. In my opinion hurts a batter or a team.

Me I let em go. If a team wants to beat themselves with walks I let em.. we will take.
Will I hit and run with two on best hitter up and less than 2 out...never.

Will I again make a monster deal out of missing a sign... no. It happens, obviously I was partial at fault. Not enough practice at signs, not dealing with a problen child or underestimating ability to
see at a distance.

I choose not to assume a missed sign on purpose, I think more of them than that.

quote:

Originally posted by freddy77:

quote:

How long will the QB on the football team be the quarterback if he constantly calls the wrong play? Not long.....How about the point guard who constantly runs the wrong play? Not long... Missing signs is a failure to execute.

Schwammi, I not sure this is a good analogy. QBs and point guards are expected to have a high IQ--at least, a high athletic IQ.

Some decent ballplayers who are giving it their best are below average at picking up sign progressions that are delivered at normal speed.

Our JV coach last spring geusstimated that his team was missing about 25% of his live signs. (Not intentionally.)

Full disclosure: one of my sons was a 3-year varsity starter and would run through a brick wall to please his coach, etc., but man alive that boy of mine was dyslexic or something when it came to picking up signs. Hard worker, graduated in the top 20% of his class.

As a coach, I expect and demand that players give 110% effort to pick up signs. Zero tolerance regarding effort. That being said, some are brighter than others.

give coaches credit enough to tell the difference between that and the kid who gives him a dirty look and swings anyway.

Ok, so you guys caught me. I should have finished by acknowleging that not everyone can handle signs, so as a coach you deal with it. So, if you are playing against my team and the 1st base coach yells 'blue", make sure you have a good bunt coverage and if we yell "silver" you may want to pitch out...however be forewarned that we only progress to the verbal cues with the guys who have failed the non-verbal test.

In all seriousness, I ran a 12u team that had 35 different offensive/defensive plays. They learned it. It wasn't flawless, but I used it to prepare them for the next level. The 14u kid who knows when to bunt doesn't miss the bunt sign any more often then the lightning fast kid misses the steal sign. Defensively, with a runner on 2nd, my MIF's learned to look for a pick-off play. It became second nature. That's how I knew they were ready to play at the next level. As for the rest, that's why you go slow, use secondary verbal cues, use confirmantions, and then either burn your timeout or hope for the best.

And finally, to tie this back to the original thread, I am proud that I never embarassed a player - just steady reinforcement of what was expected. So what if I expected alot! It's a great moment when the light bulb goes on!

Larry Bowa was going over the art of sign giving on MLB a few days ago... the use of indicators and such. I was struck when he mentioned that he had one player in Philly who just never could get it so for him one clap meant bunt, two claps meant hit and run and so on... lol.

I have no problem with a coach sitting a player. I have no problem with a coach ripping into a player in the dugout. Yelling down the line at a batter in the box? Lack of respect for the game IMO.

Dirty laundry gets washed in the dugout.

No matter how u do it or who u do it to some will have no problem and some will. My advice to coaches today do not say anything to anybody at anytime. No problem.

quote:

Originally posted by showme:

quote:

So dont miss signs if you dont want to get ripped.

I seen players more concerned about looking for the signs than the next pitch. It's like two strikes why you looking here.

If a kid can't handle looking for signs and then focusing when he steps in the box he probably isn't able to play at a very high level anyway.

quote:

Originally posted by showme:Will I again make a monster deal out of missing a sign... no. It happens

Um, if I'm coaching I don't accept that it just happens. I do everything in my power to keep it from happening. Including using the bench as a motivational tool.

One other minor issue around missed signs - I know of at least two occasions in my life when the coach was the one at fault.

The first was when I was a player. Bunt sign was indicator followed by touching their butt. (I still remember butt=bunt - thought it was hysterical when I was 14...). So I get bunt sign with the bases loaded and two outs... lay down a good one but make an out. Coach asks me on the way back to the dugout what I was thinking... turns out he was scratching an itch...

Other was me as a coach - gave the squeeze sign with two strikes on the batter and wiped it off - or thought I did - but that was the wipe off for another team. Good thing the batter was a good bunter...

Point is - coaches can make mistakes too - and that missed signs are a part of the game. Coaches and players need to work together to reduce mistakes - but they will happen.

quote:

Originally posted by 08Dad:
One other minor issue around missed signs - I know of at least two occasions in my life when the coach was the one at fault.

The first was when I was a player. Bunt sign was indicator followed by touching their butt. (I still remember butt=bunt - thought it was hysterical when I was 14...). So I get bunt sign with the bases loaded and two outs... lay down a good one but make an out. Coach asks me on the way back to the dugout what I was thinking... turns out he was scratching an itch...

Other was me as a coach - gave the squeeze sign with two strikes on the batter and wiped it off - or thought I did - but that was the wipe off for another team. Good thing the batter was a good bunter...

Point is - coaches can make mistakes too - and that missed signs are a part of the game. Coaches and players need to work together to reduce mistakes - but they will happen.

Great points and stories. Things happen and you have to work to overcome them. If you have a kid that you know is missing signs on purpose then you have a bigger problem than just missing signs. If it's a mistake then see if it's something that needs fixed or a brain ****. I sure have had my fair share of brain farts in the 3rd base box.

I even write the signs on the bill of my hat so I will have them readily. If I want to put something on and not sure of the sign I take my hat off and rub my head like I'm wiping off sweat (I'm bald) and glance at the hat bill. Then I put the sign on.

On a similar note - what cracks me up are the coaches who go through signs first inning, first batter and first pitch. Seriously what are you going to put on there? Only thing you got is a drag bunt for basehit - why not teach your guys what to look for and let them do it on their own? Then you got the guys who go through a 5 minute sign routine and nothing is on and they do this EVERY single pitch.

Yes you got to give some dummy signs to keep the other team honest but it's a pretty basic game - anyone who knows the game will know when you're going to bunt, have a good idea when you're going to steal and all that other stuff. It comes down to executing it.

quote:

Originally posted by coach2709:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by 08Dad:

On a similar note - what cracks me up are the coaches who go through signs first inning, first batter and first pitch. Seriously what are you going to put on there? Only thing you got is a drag bunt for basehit - why not teach your guys what to look for and let them do it on their own?

I agree, signing the first batter of an inning on the first pitch is unnecessary -- the only possible play is bunt for a base hit.

But a case can be made that you should flash signs early and often in the first inning to give the third baseman something to think about, and more importantly to overload the sign-stealers on the other team so they'll get bored and give up and yack with their teammates instead of staring at you. In other words, flash signs like an idiot in the first inning and they'll start ignoring you in a hurry, which is what you want.

I don't agree that you teach batters what to look for and let them decide whether to bunt for a basehit on their own. With rare exceptions, batters won't bunt for a base hit (with anything near the frequency that it's tactically justified) unless you give the sign. Brett Butler is dead.

If I want the first batter of an inning to bunt for a base hit, I don't usually sign him--I let him know before the start of the inning ("if 3B is back, drop one down the 3B line.") They already know that they have to bunt strikes, and have to keep trying until I give them the wipe sign.

Regarding players missing signs:

quote:

Um, if I'm coaching I don't accept that it just happens. I do everything in my power to keep it from happening. Including using the bench as a motivational tool.

Any coach worth his salt has zero tolerance for a player intentionally missing/ignoring signs.

In terms of doing everything possible to avoid unintentionally missed signs: Do you slow down the speed of your sign progressions for sign-impaired players?

I do. Because I do this, and because slow-down signs are easier for the other team to steal, I tend to flash a fair number of dummy signs to get the other team to ignore me. BTW, I get no particular pleasure out of flashing signs. It's an annoying aspect of the job. I'd rather stand there and think.

Morgan Ensberg:

Hey! We are Hitting and Running on this Pitch Right Now!

It was 1998 at USC (Trojans) and we were hitting. We had a man on 1st base and he had just missed the hit and run sign. Our coach, Mike Gillespie never got upset if we lacked ability, but he was very upset when we neglected to pay attention to the details. He put his clipboard down and walked out of the dugout and this is what he said to the runner who missed the sign:

“We are hitting and running on THIS pitch RIGHT NOW.”

I couldn’t believe it! The opposing catcher was looking at Gillespie. Their pitcher was looking at him. And then I got a glimpse of their pitcher’s eyes and he didn’t know if he should believe Gillespie or not. He was completely confused.

Their pitcher finally threw a pitch. Our runner on 1st took off and our batter hit the ball on the ground in between 1st base and 2nd base where the second baseman had vacated. We had just called our “shot” and the opposing team knew it was coming, but they couldn’t execute!

That's funny.

bet this coach did alright.... where's it say you got to be smart to play baseball?