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35 replies

Throwing mechanics tips?

SandmanSandman500+ posts
Hi,

My son Kevin is 13 yrs od., ~5'1" and ~105 lbs. Two years ago, while pitching during a preseason scrimmage, he suffered an avulsion fracture in his throwing elbow's growth plate, as well as a partial tear in the MCL. After not pitching at all that whole year and doing some physical therapy over the winter, he came back for his 12YO LL year and pitched very well and w/ no pain in the elbow area.

Last fall, he moved up to the big field. He pitched a little there and is obviously going to take awhile to get used to the longer throws all over the field.

I'm much more comfortable/experienced coaching hitting, but I'd like to do what I can to help him make his arm a weapon and not a liability. By "liability", I don't mean that he can't make the throws necessary in a game, I just don't want him to experience elbow issues again. Personally, I'd rather he just stopped pitching and focused on positions. But he likes it AND he throws strikes (plus a nice changeup). Wink

This clip is from Tues. I left a bunch of throws in these clips, so you can really see what he's doing, rather than me trying to pick one throw from each angle, and possibly hiding some details. My wife filmed from 3 angles, so hopefully there's enough. Note: he's only thrown a 1/2 dozen times or so this year. And a few days prior to this, he was feeling some soreness in his elbow. So he might've been a bit tentative today. He's certainly not trying to throw anywhere near 100%, probably closer to 75-80%.

What do I see?

Good: arm action/angles/height at footplant seems ok.

Bad: from there, no glove-side arm action (it just flops out of the way) and not much hip power. I would think we'd want to see his right leg come around a lot more and more forcefully. It's almost like he stops w/ his body and just pushes w/ his arm?

Today tho, we played catch again and I had him focus on really cranking his hips through just before his stride finished. We noticed that his first few throws like this were high and seemed to have more oomph. He felt like he wasn't really trying to throw harder, like his arm wasn't being stressed, yet his throws seemed to have more on 'em, just from adding some conscious hip rotation.

Appreciate any thoughts on what we could do to improve his throwing, maybe learning to use the body better than just whipping his arm and carrying his hips along?

Thank you,
Mike

http://members.cox.net/sandmanbaseball/Kevin%20-%20throwing.mp4
http://members.cox.net/sandmanbaseball/Kevin%20-%20throwing.wmv

Please let me know if most folks would rather view the mp4 or wmv format, so I can remove the less-desired one from my webspace. Thanks.
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Bolts-Coach-PRBolts-Coach-PR10,000+ posts


See if he can get in the position pictured above. Notice that the hips and shoulders are rotating slightly to the right of the intended target, creating needed torque. But you don't want to throw across you body, so draw a straight line (with chalk or duct tape if you practice in the street) about 10 feet long. Have him put both feet on the line around shoulder width apart. Have him land on the line with his lead foot, and not to the left of it (this will help him reduce his shoulder flying open as well)... Another thing he needs to work on is a little longer stride. On that same line, make a line behind his back foot, like where his foot would be pushing off the rubber. Then ask him the throw a ball. Mark where he lands his lead heel. Then, make a mark 10-inches to 12-inches further along the 10 foot line... Tell him he needs to work on landing his foot past the new line, while landing on the 10-foot line... He'll need to really push off his back foot to get there.

Good luck.
Last edited by Bolts-Coach-PR
SandmanSandman500+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by wayback:
Sandman, I agree with AL MA.

You have a very good guy in Mark Cahill at the RI Baseball Institute. My son worked with Mark after the same exact situation during his 11 year-old year. Mark, along with Dave Stenhouse, have been dealing with pitching injuries for 20+ years.


Thanks wayback. I just saw Mark last Friday; I rented a hitting cage for 1/2 hr for my son and a friend. Interestingly, just before Kevin came back to games after his injury, I took him to Mark for a look. He said "he's fine" and that he didn't see anything glaring to change. I'll give him a call today tho and setup a "refresher" look this week.
SandmanSandman500+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by Bolts-Coach-PR:


See if he can get in the position pictured above. Notice that the hips and shoulders are rotating slightly to the right of the intended target, creating needed torque.

I'm pretty sure he can, but he's not pitching in these clips, so I wouldn't expect that kind of leg lift?

quote:
But you don't want to throw across you body, so draw a straight line (with chalk or duct tape if you practice in the street) about 10 feet long. Have him put both feet on the line around shoulder width apart. Have him land on the line with his lead foot, and not to the left of it (this will help him reduce his shoulder flying open as well)...

Like in the 2nd throw where he's throwing towards the camera? Smile His feet start out on a crack in the street and he seems to land right on it. But I see what you mean about the shoulder flying open a bit. Just not sure the line on the ground would correct?
TK Ted K.10+ posts
wow, this is a pretty major injury and a young player. As much as mechanics I would start a running and pregame and pre throwing exercise program. I wouldnt let the kid throw without running first. Aerobic exercise (which is what is needed) means heart rate up for at least 20-30 minutes prior to throwing. In light of the injury I would go 20-30 minutes after, too. The young players dont like to run but once they have an injury like that and you want to keep playing (and pitching?) its going to be the only way. Oh, and a long sleeve shirt wouldnt hurt. Your kid will see major league pitchers throwing with short sleeves. Dont do it. Period.
H hsballcoach100+ posts
One thing that I noticed as I watched the clips was that your son has a tendency to step to his right and then throw. His body is moving to the right and then he is throwing to the left. While he does not throw dramatically across his body, he is having to compensate for the direction that the body is moving. This can definitely place strain on the MCL. I would have him practice by taking a step with his right foot behind the left, then the left foot and throw. This will help him to get a feel for moving directly in line with his target. He looks to have a nice arm with free and easy motion. I hope this helps.
SandmanSandman500+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by BobbleheadDoll:
If you want advice on pitching show a clip with him pitching.

Ok, here's a game clip w/ 2 pitches.

I notice that most MLB pitcher clips I view, it looks like their throwing arm is not up in the high-cocked position as early as Kevin's. As late as a couple frames before footplant, their hand is still much lower than their elbow, whereas Kevin has his arm all the way up quite early. Is this an issue? And if so, how does one go about changing their timing to change this?


Thank you.
Last edited by Sandman
RobVRobV100+ posts
You son has some timing issues with his arm action, but more importantly it looks to me that he is very linear as he throws and is "pushing" the ball. It's a little difficult to see at this angle.

He does not maintain the hinge angle at his elbow when he throws, and consequently throws the ball like a "cricket bowler" would throw.

Some of this may be due to the injury he sustained to his elbow a while back, and he is sub-consciously protecting his arm as he throws.

He starts out OK, but the last 10-12 frames prior to release is where he is breaking down. His finish after he throws is also a good indicator of a linear throw and pushing the ball.

You will needs lots of reps and backwards chaining to fix these issues, but he is young and as he matures some of these things may improve on their own.
Last edited by RobV
H hsballcoach100+ posts
When I watched the clip from his game I noticed that he releases the ball very high. He is not holding onto the ball long enough. This could be to protect the elbow as Rob pointed out. One thing that has been very affective for some of my pitchers that have done this, is to place a throw down plate about five feet in front of home plate. Have him try to bounce the ball off of the first plate. It sounds easy but many kids that release too high or drop their elbow (both traits we try to eliminate) have a very difficult time getting the ball to bounce at all. After some practice it has helped many of our guys. Another good verbal cue that I have heard is to release the ball below the catchers mask.
RT Roger Tomas100+ posts
My opinion is that the pitcher doesn't get good hip and shoulder separation. To improve this, the pitcher's glove arm needs work. It drops too early and that leads to the early shoulder rotation. It looks like he was taught to lead with the glove-side elbow and he keeps the glove arm tucked back. I prefer to see the glove arm mirror the angles of the throwing arm at the elbow and wrist joints. And this needs to be the case at front foot plant (even if it is just "in passing" for those who sweep the glove arm). Doing so will buy timing for the shoulders to stay closed until after the hips have rotated. If the glove arm does not mirror the throwing arm at foot plant, early shoulder rotation is almost always the result.

I also feel the pitcher has a posture issue. By tilting the head and spine to the glove side at release, the release point is pulled back and raised up. And that makes the release point inconsistent and it makes (or will make) it hard to get good spin on breaking pitches.
SandmanSandman500+ posts
Thanks for the feedback guys.

Roger, you're right, I have tried to focus him on leading w/ his glove side elbow in an effort to try to keep his shoulders closed longer. He used to lead w/ his glove, almost straight-armed, and would fly open the lead shoulder even worse.

Regarding the high release point and posture... isn't that a function of arm angle? IOW, if he threw more 3/4 or sidearm, his arm wouldn't be as vertical and his spine not as angled?
B BobbleheadDoll5,000+ posts
Your son is trying way too hard to throw 90. At his age he needs to concentrate on body control. His delivery is way out of whack.
He has no balance and falls off to the 1st base side which a lot of pitchers do. His motion should be to the plate and he should end up squared up to the plate in a fielding position. That requires bending at the waiste as he releases the ball out front and finishes with a nice smooth arm de acceleration. His head should be steady and focused on the plate.
My son had beautiful mechanics until this year. he now falls off to the right and has dropped from one of the top stats to the worst on his college team. I am having a difficult time trying to straighten him out even after showing him clips when he was 17 against clips of him now. I couldn't figure it out until they started streaming his games. It is awful to watch. His coaches keep messing with his delivery and for the 1st time last summer he had shoulder pain.
Any pitching coach who allows your son to fall off like he does is playing with dissaster. Every thing has to go forward towards the plate. If you think MLB pitchers have good mechanics you would only be right maybe half the time.
There are very few P coaches at your sons age that have a clue.
I would add that your sons stride is too short and that is why he rushes the ball release before he falls off to the side. When you throw properly your chest is out over your plant leg and forms a 45% angle just before the post leg kicks up. Inorder to do this your som has to bend at the waist as he gets out front over the stride leg. It is all about body control.
Last edited by BobbleheadDoll
SandmanSandman500+ posts
Thanks for the thoughts bobble. But I know for a fact that he's NOT trying to throw 90 (or anywhere near that or his full speed). He purposely holds back a bit to make sure he maintains accuracy. He may appear to be though due to inefficiencies and maybe "muscling" a bit to compensate.

Personally, I'd like to see him cut loose a bit and throw w/ more intent, even if it means losing a little control for awhile. If he more forcefully pushed off the rubber or otherwise got his hips involved more/faster, his stride would automatically lengthen.

Thanks again.
H hsballcoach100+ posts
Sandman,
No the arm angle is not really the factor that I see in this release point. You can take two players that both throw from a 3/4 angle and one will release the ball much sooner than the other. When you can hold on to the ball longer, you get that explosiveness that people talk about when they say the ball jumps out of a pitchers hand. He does keep his hip closed while the front shoulder opens. I try to tell our guys to point that shoulder until they feel like the throwing hand is moving forward. If he can land with the foot a little less closed it will help him get his hips into it. All of this is nit-picking a bit because he looks like he is doing well. Our number 1 looked very similar to him a couple of years ago, and was able to correct it through the methods above. Hope this helps.
RT Roger Tomas100+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by Sandman:
Roger, you're right, I have tried to focus him on leading w/ his glove side elbow in an effort to try to keep his shoulders closed longer. He used to lead w/ his glove, almost straight-armed, and would fly open the lead shoulder even worse.

I understand your intent. However, when the glove arm action is shorter and takes less time than the throwing arm action, that usually results in early shoulder rotation. Once the glove arm drops, the shoulders just naturally follow. I would recommend he keep the glove up in front and that you work on simply stabilizing it out front. Once it extends out front - somewhere over the front foot - it should stay out there. As the shoulders start to rotate, the glove elbow will drop and the glove will turn over. The chest should move to the glove.

quote:
Regarding the high release point and posture... isn't that a function of arm angle? IOW, if he threw more 3/4 or sidearm, his arm wouldn't be as vertical and his spine not as angled?

True. I'm ok with the shoulders being tilted but not the head. Once the head tilts, he's not seeing the target well and it's too easy for the head to tilt early or differing amounts each pitch. I recommend keeping the head upright and taking it straight towards the target.

Take a look at this picture of Maddux. His shoulders are tilted but his head is still (mostly) upright. Also notice his glove position.

Last edited by Roger Tomas
B BobbleheadDoll5,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by BobbleheadDoll:
Sandman you do not push off the rubber.


That is why he is releasing too soon and flaaing off to the side. He needs a longer stride and to get out over the stride leg before releasing the ball out front.
Great mechanics make a pitcher look smooth and like he is throwing with no effort. There arms last longer as well as having better accuracy. Your son gives the batter too long to look at the ball. May get away with this at a young age but he won't at an older, higher level.

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