Throwing too much versus not throwing enough

Good Topic Gingerbread,

I have my opinion on this subject, but don't have time to write it now.

The simple answer is...Some kids throw too much, some kids don't throw enough. Sometimes the hard part is figuring out which one is which. For sure they are not all exactly the same!

The arm DOES have only so many "good" throws in it! Problem is.... that number of throws is different from one person to the next. Even Nolan Ryan slows down at some point!

Gingerbread


For me the key is differentiating between throwing and pitching---we used to "play catch" all day long but we did not "pitch" all day long

Today kids do not know what it is to "play catch"

Personally I do not think todays kids throw enough

quote:

Originally posted by TRhit:
Gingerbread


For me the key is differentiating between throwing and pitching---we used to "play catch" all day long but we did not "pitch" all day long

Today kids do not know what it is to "play catch"

Personally I do not think todays kids throw enough

I agree, and using my own as an example, he played catch more than he pitched, and has remained seriously uninjured. So IMO, that is the theory I go by, my own experience. Also from my experience, kids ARE in better shape than they were when son was younger, but things have changed, travel youth ball, showcases, tournaments, more tournaments, fall, winter, summer and spring ball. They pitch more, period. The catching ball has given way to playing more from the mound, too young and too early.

You shouldn't have to worry about whether kids play too much playstation, watch too much TV etc or not. If your son loves participating more in sports than watching, he will do it. Not sure of anyone else, but when son was younger, he much rather be outside than inside. Parents need to monitor their young childrens indoor and outdoor activities, it makes for better habits later on. And they need to learn about priorities.

Didn't realize that theory was an old one, but you haven't gotten to the point where you understand it, what one does today may make the difference between a sore shoulder or shoulder surgery. No matter what you want to beleive, most pitchers break down, and do so at different times because they are all different, not because tehy are lazy or unconditioned. If it were that simple it would be wrapped and sold to teh highest bidder, and there would be many waiting inlivne including MLB, no one has the REAL answer.
No matter what you may think you are doing right, doesn't always go that way, because the body is only human and circumstances change. Yes, the more precautions one takes when they are younger, means less chance of injury later on. But there are things you cannot control as they leave your control.
As I said before, the whole object is to get as far as you can if you want to remain in the game to make it where a major injury will not hurt your chances of getting further. it happens) but at least he got to that level.
I don't understand your point, we all agree that kids need to be conditioned well to perform well and avoid injury. I don't hink anyone disagrees that you should follow guidelines ane that should be from those who know best, most likely those that have seen it all. I'll take the word of a doctors recommendation over anyone's else, JMO.

BTW, to answer your question, I would take away thl youth pitching, let them play and learn the game and "catch" more, learn to really pitch properly with good mechanics before game situations.

From what I have seen, kids are "thrown" into the game before they have gotten down the basics.

i also think kids today don't play catch enough.that could be my age showing.


tpm said her son played catch quite abit and has remained uninjured. my son's and i, played catch daily. the oldest was injured. ya never know, but my theory is velocity increase before the body's ready to. but i slept at a holiday inn parking lot last night.

20dad,
What you posted is a good example of how you just don't know how things will turn out.
While son played catcht more than pitched he also did not play catch everyday.

But he was always doing something to keep the arms and legs moving.

Unless that doctor was a high level pitcher I’m not sure I would take his word as the way to reach the top. Doctor’s are here for health reasons, not to develop major league pitchers. To place the same pitch count limits on everyone just doesn’t make any sense to me. That would be saying that all pitchers are exactly the same.

A certain amount of pitching is necessary in order to be a good pitcher. That is unless pitching is different than every other endeavor known to man. You become a better piano player by playing the piano. You become a better high jumper by high jumping. A better free throw shooter by shooting free throws, able to lift more weight by weight lifting. A better hitter by hitting. Why would you become a better pitcher by not pitching.

Of course the best answer to keep your throwing arm healthy… Do not throw a baseball overhand! We all know that won’t get anyone to the top. There is risk and reward in nearly everything we do to physically improve. We don’t get better by accident in most cases. So somewhere between zero throws and an unknown number of throws there is an answer that tells us what is too few and what is too much. That number can’t possibly be the same for every individual.

So if the only goal is to stay healthy, stay on the safe side. If the goal is to reach the major leagues, it will take something more than that. You simply don’t get good at things by not doing it. Athletes actually have to challenge themselves at some point or they never reach their potential.

It’s my belief that the very best were not those that played it the safest route. That said, this is where coaching and leadership comes in. Realizing that throwing and pitching are not the same thing, it still has to be realized that throwing and pitching are close relatives. If you can’t throw… You can’t pitch. Throwing is the most important ingredient in becoming a good pitcher.

If I blow my arm, I want to go see Doc Andrews. If I want to rehab, I go to Doc Andrews. If I want to be a Major League pitcher, will Doc Andrews get me there? His thing is getting and keeping a player healthy. He hasn’t developed any major league pitchers that I’ve ever heard about. Doctors will always play the safety card. I believe there is a certain amount of risk involved in reaching one’s potential. Maybe somewhere between playing it safe and complete stupidity is the answer.

IMO, common sense should prevail. Mechanics could be a problem, conditioning could be a problem, lots of things could be a problem. I too was one of the many here who remember throwing a baseball every day all day when we were young. Then again I didn’t end up pitching in the big leagues. I’m pretty sure most all the others here who say they threw all day when they were young didn’t pitch in the big leagues either. So all I can say is… evidently throwing all day didn’t get any of us to the top. I don’t remember any of the players from our area when I was young ever playing in the big leagues. That includes all of us who used to throw a baseball all day every day. Yet in the past 10 years there have been several from our area who have played/pitched in the major leagues. So did we do it right back in the day or are they doing it right now days? Just something to think about! Of course we can always find examples for almost anything we want to prove a point. I’m pretty sure there are more kids throwing harder now than when I was young.

The bottom line IMO is the increase in arm injuries is caused by two major problems.

1 – Kids are throwing harder these days. Not many soft tossers getting TJ surgery.
2 – Mechanics, flaws in mechanics, are causing problems. Perhaps the modern day mechanics are more likely to cause injury.

There are red flags in a pitchers delivery that can help predict future arm injury. This is one area where I do listen to Doc Andrews and people like Rick Peterson who have spent a great amount of time researching and developing technology to find these red flags.

I just can’t possibly believe that every pitcher should have exactly the same pitch count. That just doesn’t make any sense whatsoever.

There was a topic comparing Japanese and American baseball. The one area where I do think Japan is way ahead is in developing healthy pitchers. I really don’t know if this is true or not, but I’ve heard that TJ surgery is very rare among pitchers in Japan. For sure they do not baby the arms over there. They believe very much in conditioning. Many Asian pitchers and players incorporate martial arts techniques into their training. We did the same thing for a couple years in college and never had a single serious injury.

One last thing… where the martial arts help in addition to the flexibility, balance and mental approach… is in keeping both sides of the body equally strong or close to it. Many pitchers are much stronger on their throwing side. This imbalance can be a cause for injury and even performance. Most pitchers simply don’t develop enough strength in their opposite throwing side. Those who understand that pitching requires the entire body to be most effective should understand why the RHP needs to have strength in the left side. The more equal the two sides, the less chance for injury. This sometimes requires working on the opposite side more than the throwing side because of all the work the throwing side already does.

Sorry for the length of my opinions here, but I’ll finally stop for now.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VYZdKUTUpSY

Here is a goal there gbm, 19, 90, no injuries, happy and healthy, nothing but opportunity looking forward.
We threw alot..still do every chance we get (Though he lights me up), we were educated early on about over-use and arm health, we didn't travel until he was 17, though with All-Stars and fall ball in a very competitive BR Association he still had plenty of starts, won a state and several district championships..just never..ever went back to back on a weekend or pitched 2 days in a row and yet he's a complete game monster.
Throwing alot is one thing throwing in an uneducated, unsupervised way is imo detrimental to that goal

PG,

I am curious as to your post at what you would think is the determining factor in arm health and throwing too much? Do you look for warning signs (arm pain) first and mechanics second? For my kid and others on our team I look first at arm pain or tightness. If they have no pain then green light for throwing. I honestly believe that arm health and good velocity (enough to get you noticed) comes from many many hours of hard work and practice throwing harder. Mechanics I look at second because everyone pitches a little different and often times it is hard to really establish what they might be doing wrong if they are having pain or control problems.

Not PG, but imo you are backwards ("I honestly believe that arm health and good velocity (enough to get you noticed) comes from many many hours of hard work and practice throwing harder. Mechanics I look at second because everyone pitches a little different and often times it is hard to really establish what they might be doing wrong if they are having pain or control problems"), throwing hard or attempting to throw hard with poor or incorrect mechanics is a recipe for injury pure and simple. Try to refine mechanics to the point of fundemental soundness then look to incrementally increase velo through proper conditioning, drill work and applied effort on the mound/pen. The body has to keep up with velo increases or the potential for non-good results follow.

My step-son's doctor (Arm specialist) said that every player should have a period of at least 2 months every year where they don't throw. We plan on doing this.

I also believe there should be adequate rest between pitching outings (adequate rest depends on # of pitches thrown). I think one can throw between pitching outings but not in a pitcher game situation.

I also try to avoid a player pitching and catching in the same game. I think this was what caused my step-son's early arm injuries (growth plate separation at 10 years old).

PG, I like your description. I agree that pitch counts should not be the same for every pitcher. Everyone is an individual. In fact ASMI agrees with this as well. Below is one of many quotes from Glenn Fleisig from ASMI on pitch counts. He basically says that there needs to room for individuality, but setting pitch counts for youth is the next best thing since there is no way to set pitch counts for individuals:

quote:

Glenn Fleisig, Ph.D.
ASMI Team

member is offline





Joined: May 2005
Gender: Male
Posts: 753
Location: Birmingham, AL
Re: Discussion about Pitch Counts for Youth Pitche
« Reply #115 on Mar 13, 2009, 5:37pm »

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
gameth,

Our research showed a correlation between pitch count and arm pain. You can read the full article here:
http://ajs.sagepub.com/content/30/4/463.long.

While there was a significant increased risk of arm pain with higher pitch counts, there was no obvious cut-off number (where you get hurt if you pass it, but don't get hurt if you stay below).

Thus, the study showed that high pitch counts are dangerous, but doesn't prove what the cut-off number for "danger" is. That type of conclusion can be very unsatisfying, so the authors of the paper - and then, ASMI and USA Baseball - made a judgement call and gave an opinion on what seemed like a reasonable cut-off. We tried to look for a limit where the risk of pain seems to be getting high. Little League looked at the scientific study, came up with their own opinions, and then asked ASMI (Dr. Andrews and myself) what we thought of their plan. We looked at their numbers and then discussed them with Little League. We discussed the fact that LL was choosing higher limits than ASMI recommended. LL's thinking was trying to find a limit that balanced prevention of overuse with not removing kids from the field who can still pitch without getting hurt. ASMI leaned a little more to the cautious side, while LL leaned a little more to the "let them play" side.

As I've said many times before, there is no pitch count limit number that works for every pitcher at a particular age level. Ideally, we wouldn't need pitch counts; instead coaches would remove a pitcher when he becomes fatigued. However we don't live in an ideal world, so having pitch count limits is the next best thing.

ASMI endorsed LL's pitch counts for several reasons:



LL was a leader in switching from inning limits to pitch counts. Pitch counts are a more specific limit than innings.

LL continues to be a leader in educating coaches and parents on proper mechanics, physical conditioning, mental enjoyment of the game, and avoiding overuse and fatigue.

LL's use of pitch counts could serve as an example for other organizations as well as independent teams to avoid overuse. In general, this has worked for other organizations. However today's long seasons of youth independent teams, all-star teams, and year-round baseball continue to be a major contributor to youth pitching injuries.

Here is another quote from Dr. Fleisig:

quote:

Glenn Fleisig, Ph.D.
ASMI Team

member is offline





Joined: May 2005
Gender: Male
Posts: 753
Location: Birmingham, AL
Re: Discussion about Pitch Counts for Youth Pitche
« Reply #77 on Sept 2, 2008, 1:51pm »

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Dino,

You bring up good points. Pitch count is a simple tool, and there are most likely better ways to monitor fatigue and subsequent risk of injury. I do like the concept of limiting pitches while fatigued (as measured by loss of ball velocity, loss of accuracy, or other signs).

Ideally the rule should be "a pitcher may pitch until he/she becomes fatigued, at which point the manager must take the pitcher out." A guideline like that works for most pro teams, but I doubt it would work well on most youth teams. Therefore, although pitch counts might not be perfect, it is probably the best regulation that is practical.

I could come up with a number of other quotes, but point is that pitch counts really should be individual. Problem is, that determination depends on the coach. The coach needs to be able to recognize signs of fatigue AND have the moral fiber to take a good pitcher out regardless of what the outcome of the game might be.

I'm in the kids don't throw enough corner. As a kid we played all day all summer, then played or practiced with our teams at night. The first time I didn't throw every day was Legion ball in the summer. But I was throwing five or six days a week.

My son throws almost every day. But it's not a lot since kids don't hang out at the field all day playing. He will throw for a half hour on days he doesn't have practice. He's never had as much as stiffness heading into summer ball following high school soph season. When fall ball ends about November 1st, he won't throw until after New Years.

This is a very interesting topic.

First of all, I am a big believer in pitch counts. Even long before all the arm injuries these days.

However, pitch counts by themselves are only a small part of the issue. There are many other things that can cause arm injuries. IMO, insufficient recovery time might be the biggest problem. I cringe everytime I see a pitcher throw again before he has had time to recover from his last outing. In our world we see this way too often!

I stand corrected about the ASMI recommendations. I have a lot of respect for Dr. Andrews and Dr. Fleisig. I'm glad they have devoted so much to trying to help the game. My opinions are my opinions only, I don't claim to know as much as these guys do. In fact, we plan to get more involved with a group called "3P" (Rick Peterson's group) who work closely with Dr. Andrews, Dr. Fleisig and the ASMI.

The problem I have is that sometimes people fail to recognize there are two issues that can work against each other.

1 - Reaching highest potential - Goal of Professional Club or College Program.

2 - Staying healthy - Goal of the medical profession.

Reaching potential involves testing your maximum ability (pushing your limits) IMO. This obviously can involve some risk!

Staying healthy involves playing it safe.

These two things can be complete opposite mind sets.

What we really need is to look at every pitcher as an individual. Maybe the secret is in the training and conditioning.

For sure the ideal result is to both reach your potential and stay healthy. I'm not sure anyone has yet to come up with a great plan for that. I think it's somewhat of a gamble.

The truth is... Most Major League pitchers get injured at some point! Most people who don't pitch have healthy arms! Think about that!

Now, if we are talking about very young kids... I'm all for playing it as safe as possible.

What any single player does or doesn't do, has very little bearing on what will work for the next player.

If we use examples, we have to use many examples.

Here is ONE example. As I mentioned earlier, we used to throw all day, every day. None of the kids I grew up with ever played a game of professional baseball. In fact, the one kid we grew up with who did become a professional pitcher, threw the ball less than any of us. He didn't even play on the high school team (went out for track)

My son did not throw every day for long periods of time, but was overused at times on the mound while he was 15-16 years old. He did pitch in professional baseball and also ended up with TJ surgery. BTW, he too never had as much as a sore arm until June 23rd 2000 at age 24. Just because a kid has never experienced arm problems, doesn't mean they never will.

So just because we threw a baseball all the time doesn't mean we got the best results... or does it?

I'm in agreement with you PG. I'm sure everyone can come up with a different way to train, what pitches to throw at what age, how much you should or shouldn't throw, etc... They can probably come up with a different example of a pitcher who made it who used their methods. I think the problem is, everyone is an individual and what works for some might not work for others.

The problem is, you don't know what will or will not work until it is too late. For all we talk about this, the one common thread in what all the HSBBWers as well as ASMI say is - don't pitch past the point of fatigue and get plenty of rest from the mound before you hit the mound again.

I also think you need to push the limits at times in order to build stamina and arm strength. Just like weight lifting, running or any other physical activity, you are not going to get beyond where you are without going beyond where you are. I think this is what you are talking about PG. Sometimes you have to push the envelope. This all has to be done with a modicum of common sense though. You can't abuse a kid on the mound, you can't use him too often without proper recovery time.

I don't know if kids can throw too much, I am pretty certain they can pitch too much. Here is what I believe to be the difference. Pitching, you are going all out (not necessarily 100%), but you are in a competitive situation, you want to win. You will go at that pace to the point where you go beyond what is healthy in order to win. When you go out and play catch or do long toss, it is a much more relaxed atmosphere. Throws are not anywhere near as intense as in a game situation. When the kids start to tire, they slow down their throws and throw with more of an arc, or reach their partner on a bounce. This just will not happen in a game. I think the body will naturally slow itself down while just throwing, therefore protecting itself from severe injury while reaping the benefits of getting stronger.

I know I'm rambling, but I guess I'm trying to say that I agree with PG in that if you want to get better, you have to push harder and there is risk in that. Finding the right balance between the risk and the reward is a tough thing to figure out and it is different for every person out there.

quote:

For sure the ideal result is to both reach your potential and stay healthy. I'm not sure anyone has yet to come up with a great plan for that. I think it's somewhat of a gamble.

I like your approach, that is how I have often done things in the past. A player should know what he is capable of doing but also realize that he may be crossing the threshold of not getting injured when he does so. For instance, two years ago on our fall league team one of our pitchers wanted me to work with him on throwing harder. I told him that would be fine but that upon doing so he would probably get a sore arm at first. He obliged and we worked on it in a very controlled environment.

I would have him throw about 30 pitches to get good and warmed up and then told him we had 5 velocity pitches to work with each one thrown a little harder than the last. I told him plain and simply that his velocity would increase if he focused on throwing harder (his general effort) once he was good and warmed up. Over the next several weeks his velocity came up about 5 mph. I told him the results were due to him throwing more- not in actual pitch counts, but because his effort increased because of his focus. It comes at a risk though because you begin to train your body to do things at the very limit- the limit where injury possibility increases dramatically.

That is why I believe that kids should throw more (not at pitch velocity) to better condition their arms and bodies so that they can keep injury possibilties at a lower percentage. Throwing is a fine art that few master, mostly because they do not concentrate on what they are doing when they are throwing and getting a feel for their limits.

Even my son who is absolutely spectacular on the mound is far from mastering his throwing potential and ability. I feel that he is just beginning to have a grasp for the physics side of mechanics and spin physics imparted on balls. Up to this point he has just done what naturally comes to him and I feel that he holds back potential mostly because he sees it as something he can do later on.

I often tell kids if they want to improve their throwing ability, arm health, velocity and mechanics that they should go and study the science of catapults- ancient and modern because the body is merely nothing more than a catapult, it mimicks it in every way.

One of the biggest dangers I see with coaches is teaching kids just learning to throw with bad physics. I often hear talk about "over the top" and "12-6 rotation" and similar things and when kids try to throw like this they start losing the natural throwing physique and instead turn into contortionists with limbs going in all directions, backs that are cocked in funny positions, balance and follow through problems and it all leads into sore arms!

It's like the coaches themselves have no idea what they are teaching because thats what they have been told.

Well said bballman!

quote:

Wow, before you criticize coaches, I would really like to see how "spectacular" your son's pitching looks like. I've been scouting a lot of very talented young pitchers. I don't have any problems with the "over the top", "12-6" stuff. As a matter of fact, I have to say they really got good stuff. I don't know why you have problems with that, Does your son throw side-arm? Amazing!

Dude, I am not even gonna give you the time of fricken day!

For a scout you sure are a cocky dude!