Here are a few guys I would take before I take Frank Thomas and not necessarily in any order
Albert Pujols
Manny
Larry Walker
PAPI
Derek Jeter
Barry Bonds
Original Post
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TR,
You broke the No Roids Rule--Bonds doesn't count.
I agree with you on Pujols but he needs to do it for a few more years. No doubt he will.
Maybe I agree with Manny too, although career stats are very similar and Manny hasn't had nearly the injury problems that Thomas has had. If Thomas is healthy for the past several years his stats would dwarf Manny's.
Larry Walker is an interesting choice. Again, he didn't have truly monster seasons for all that long and career stats don't put him in the category of "Thomas can't shine his shoes."
PAPI--Much too soon to tell.
Jeter--As an all around player, agreed. As a hitter? No way.
You broke the No Roids Rule--Bonds doesn't count.
I agree with you on Pujols but he needs to do it for a few more years. No doubt he will.
Maybe I agree with Manny too, although career stats are very similar and Manny hasn't had nearly the injury problems that Thomas has had. If Thomas is healthy for the past several years his stats would dwarf Manny's.
Larry Walker is an interesting choice. Again, he didn't have truly monster seasons for all that long and career stats don't put him in the category of "Thomas can't shine his shoes."
PAPI--Much too soon to tell.
Jeter--As an all around player, agreed. As a hitter? No way.
HC
Dont use excuses for Thomas-- it is what it is not to mention him being a headache for ownership
Walker --an MVP player--great bat great arm
Dont use excuses for Thomas-- it is what it is not to mention him being a headache for ownership
Walker --an MVP player--great bat great arm
Headache for ownership, yes. Sort of like Manny.
Thomas. Back to back MVP player.
Walker had three outstanding seasons, but all were in Colorado. Careerwise, Thomas has 65 more home runs, 234 more RBIs, nearly an identical BA and an OBP that is 27 POINTS higher than Walker's. Why? Because Thomas has walked 1466 times--over 500 more times than Walker. And in Thomas's case, it was not because opposing teams wouldn't pitch to him. It is because he is generally recognized as having the best strike zone awareness of any hitter ever. If Thomas had played in Colorado for 10 years we wouldn't even be having this conversation.
By the way, Sox fans, feel free to chip in. Don't make a Cub fan who actually detests Frank Thomas do all the work!
Thomas. Back to back MVP player.
Walker had three outstanding seasons, but all were in Colorado. Careerwise, Thomas has 65 more home runs, 234 more RBIs, nearly an identical BA and an OBP that is 27 POINTS higher than Walker's. Why? Because Thomas has walked 1466 times--over 500 more times than Walker. And in Thomas's case, it was not because opposing teams wouldn't pitch to him. It is because he is generally recognized as having the best strike zone awareness of any hitter ever. If Thomas had played in Colorado for 10 years we wouldn't even be having this conversation.
By the way, Sox fans, feel free to chip in. Don't make a Cub fan who actually detests Frank Thomas do all the work!
From 1991 through the 2000 season Frank Thomas was the best overall hitter in baseball. Larry Walker is one of my favorite players. He was not the hitter Thomas was, but he has been a darn fine hitter. He is also a Gold Glover with a great arm and even this past year at age 38, was voted by his peers as the best baserunner in the National League. At 6'3" and 235 lbs, that shows me something. He showed some of that the other night when he took 3rd in a heartbeat before the Astros knew what happened.
Thomas was the best hitter, but as a complete ballplayer he is not even close to Walker.
Thomas was the best hitter, but as a complete ballplayer he is not even close to Walker.
I agree, but when this conversation started we were talking hitting only.
Hitting?....Frank Thomas......Case closed.
Jeter is today's greatest leader, not hitter!
Manny is and will always be a Prima Donna.
Walker is a fine hitter but no Frank.
Papi's numbers aren't close.
Bonds numbers are roids inflated.
If Pujols has 5 more similar years he'll be the best of all-time. He's not there yet.
Jeter is today's greatest leader, not hitter!
Manny is and will always be a Prima Donna.
Walker is a fine hitter but no Frank.
Papi's numbers aren't close.
Bonds numbers are roids inflated.
If Pujols has 5 more similar years he'll be the best of all-time. He's not there yet.
Man...If Frank Thomas played his best years in Boston, he would have 1,845 home runs!
Pop fly to right and left become home runs with 315 and 318 down the lines!
Go White Sox!
Pop fly to right and left become home runs with 315 and 318 down the lines!
Go White Sox!
What about ARod, or Ichiro?
they not among my top 5
Tr is smoking something. How did you feel about Ty Cobb Mr. hit???
Like Cobb in his time, Ichiro is simply the best all around player in the game. Arod is probably #2.
They are both in the top 5 hitters.
Like Cobb in his time, Ichiro is simply the best all around player in the game. Arod is probably #2.
They are both in the top 5 hitters.
soxnole
Again you are way off base with your Ichiro feelings--he is not even close to the top 5 in the past 25 years
As for Cobb-- I never saw him play thus I cannot comment
AROD has a lot of tools and also a mother making excuses for him for him.
Again you are way off base with your Ichiro feelings--he is not even close to the top 5 in the past 25 years
As for Cobb-- I never saw him play thus I cannot comment
AROD has a lot of tools and also a mother making excuses for him for him.
Soxnole finally says something I can agree with and then turns around and ruins the moment. Darn.
quote:Originally posted by TRhit:
Here are a few guys I would take before I take Frank Thomas and not necessarily in any order
Albert Pujols
Manny
Larry Walker
PAPI
Derek Jeter
Barry Bonds
This is a good thread, but the problem is that the players are at various stages of their careers. Thomas, Bonds and Walker are at the end.
If this is about the best 5 position players in the past 15 years, then here are my 10. My take considers both offense and defense.In other words, an all around baseball player, with the bat playing the strongest role.
1.Alex Rodriguez
2.Barry Bonds
3.Larry Walker
4.Ivan Rodriguez
5.Albert Pujols
6.Vladimir Guererro
7.Todd Helton
8.Ichiro Suzuki
9.Jeff Kent
10.Frank Thomas
I left out some great hitters like Papi and Manny, because they are terrible on defense.
A little short on defense bb but a nice list.
Ichiro, Rodriquez and Arod are head and shoulders above the rest defensively.
For the record, everyone alway's seems to forget Dick Allen. (from an all-time perspective)
Ichiro, Rodriquez and Arod are head and shoulders above the rest defensively.
For the record, everyone alway's seems to forget Dick Allen. (from an all-time perspective)
TR
Does ARods Mom wear RCG?
I've heard she is HM also.
Does ARods Mom wear RCG?
I've heard she is HM also.
quote:Originally posted by soxnole:
A little short on defense bb but a nice list.
Ichiro, Rodriquez and Arod are head and shoulders above the rest defensively.
For the record, everyone alway's seems to forget Dick Allen. (from an all-time perspective)
No player on this list is ahead of Larry Walker on defense. He is the best RF I have ever seen.
bbscout,
Please comment on Roberto Clemente? IMHO, he was better than Walker. To be fair, I have not seen Walker play in his prime.
Please comment on Roberto Clemente? IMHO, he was better than Walker. To be fair, I have not seen Walker play in his prime.
bbscout
The only player I ever saw better tham Walker in RF was Roberto Clemente
My list was based on hitting solely thus Papi and Manny
The only player I ever saw better tham Walker in RF was Roberto Clemente
My list was based on hitting solely thus Papi and Manny
quote:Originally posted by soxnole:
A little short on defense bb but a nice list.
Ichiro, Rodriquez and Arod are head and shoulders above the rest defensively.
For the record, everyone alway's seems to forget Dick Allen. (from an all-time perspective)
Richie Allen (Dick) was a great clutch hitter. I have two good stories about him. When Walter Alston was asked after his 23 year career as the Dodgers Mgr. who the best hitter he ever managed was, he said Richie Allen. He said that from the 7th inning on Allen hit the ball harder than anyone else and kept it between the white lines.He only had Allen for one year. He had Snider, Campanella etc. for many years.
When a friend of mine (Ken Henderson) got traded to the White Sox he was aware that Allen drank a little
and one day Ken came out early for some BP and was sitting on the bench when Richie showed up. He had a bat with a 1st basemans glove, and infielders glove strung over the bat and a long sleve wool sweatshirt on to sweat out the previous nights entertainment. Ken looked at him and asked where he was playing that night. Richie said "I don't know Ken, but I'am hitting 4th". 
quote:Originally posted by ClevelandDad:
bbscout,
Please comment on Roberto Clemente? IMHO, he was better than Walker. To be fair, I have not seen Walker play in his prime.
ClevelandDad, My opinion is from seeing Clemente play twice when I was a youngster and watching Walker play about 40 times over the years as a scout. I have never seen a player as fearless as Walker. He will go through a wall and it has cost him many injuries for being so aggressive. I have seen countless great plays from him. I have seen the opposing teams get to the point where they never run on him. I have never seen him make a bad throw.
Our childhood heros are always the best in our minds, but the stats are with Walker in that area too. Clemente played 18 years and Walker has played 17 years, so they are about the same in that dept.Clemente had 10 or more errors 6 times in his career and the most Walker has ever had was 6 errors in a season. Clemente had 42 DP's and Walker has had 40, so they are about the same in that dept. Anyone that saw Walker throw when he was with the Expos and his first few years with the Rockies would never rate an arm above his including Clemente. Clemente's lifetime fielding pct. was .976. Walkers is .987.
bbscout
Richie Ashburn was termed a great CF but his range was about 15 steps either side of him and he won numerpus gold gloves but he wasnt even close to Willie
Another story
As a kid I was at Yankee Stadium for Yankees/ Pirates WS game---back then you could get into the stadium at 10 AM to see all pre game stuff
There was Roberto and Yogi on the track in RF taking turns throwing to home--Roberto had what I thought was one of the best arms ever in RF and there was Yogi matching him throw for throw--both got a standing ovation when it was over
Great memories
Richie Ashburn was termed a great CF but his range was about 15 steps either side of him and he won numerpus gold gloves but he wasnt even close to Willie
Another story
As a kid I was at Yankee Stadium for Yankees/ Pirates WS game---back then you could get into the stadium at 10 AM to see all pre game stuff
There was Roberto and Yogi on the track in RF taking turns throwing to home--Roberto had what I thought was one of the best arms ever in RF and there was Yogi matching him throw for throw--both got a standing ovation when it was over
Great memories
I would take Art Shamsky and Ron Swoboda over any of them.
And throw Kenny Boswell in at 2B too.
And throw Kenny Boswell in at 2B too.
Roberto Clemente is a Hall of Famer and I don't think anyone would argue against it. Larry Walker is probably going to retire after this year. Here are a couple of questions I would like to ask. Do you think he should be a Hall of Famer? Do you think he was as good as Clemente?
My two cents:
Hall of Fame
Larry Walker - Slam dunk.
Clemente - was a slam dunk.
Walker - just not as exciting as Clemente IMO.
Shamsky-Swoboda and Boswell - they "waz" robbed"
Hall of Fame
Larry Walker - Slam dunk.
Clemente - was a slam dunk.
Walker - just not as exciting as Clemente IMO.
Shamsky-Swoboda and Boswell - they "waz" robbed"
bbscout,
You have certainly opened my eyes today on what a great defensive player Larry Walker was. As witnessed the other night, a smart base runner as well. With 2160 hits and 383 home runs, I don't see how he possibly makes it with 3000 and 500 being the gold standard for enshrinement in those categories. Good point you made about childhood memories. Clemente never let me down when I was a kid.
You have certainly opened my eyes today on what a great defensive player Larry Walker was. As witnessed the other night, a smart base runner as well. With 2160 hits and 383 home runs, I don't see how he possibly makes it with 3000 and 500 being the gold standard for enshrinement in those categories. Good point you made about childhood memories. Clemente never let me down when I was a kid.
bbscout...really enjoy your posts.
Btw, when it comes to arms, I can identify with TR's story about Yogi and Roberto.
In old Comiskey, when I was 10, I saw Minnie Minoso and Rocky Colovito put on a very similar exhibition. I love Minnie but Colovito had a bazooka, an accurate bazooka!
Btw, when it comes to arms, I can identify with TR's story about Yogi and Roberto.
In old Comiskey, when I was 10, I saw Minnie Minoso and Rocky Colovito put on a very similar exhibition. I love Minnie but Colovito had a bazooka, an accurate bazooka!
Larry Walker definitely makes the Hall of Fame. Unfortunately, only the one in Canada.
For those late to the party, the original challenge was this: TR originally stated that Frank Thomas "could not shine the shoes" of an unstated number of hitters. Against all that I stand for as a Die-Hard Cub Fan, I came to The Big Blurt's defense and challenged TR to list them. I set an arbitrary cut-off at 1980, although I probably should have set it at the beginning of the DH era. TR then posted his list in this thread.
In my opinion, nobody on the list is so good that Frank "could not shine their shoes." Pujols probably will be someday, but not yet.
There you have it.
For those late to the party, the original challenge was this: TR originally stated that Frank Thomas "could not shine the shoes" of an unstated number of hitters. Against all that I stand for as a Die-Hard Cub Fan, I came to The Big Blurt's defense and challenged TR to list them. I set an arbitrary cut-off at 1980, although I probably should have set it at the beginning of the DH era. TR then posted his list in this thread.
In my opinion, nobody on the list is so good that Frank "could not shine their shoes." Pujols probably will be someday, but not yet.
There you have it.
Colavito--accurate--not quite-- nobody ever knew where he was throwing the ball
Soxnole-- check you spelling of Colavito's name
bbscout-- I thing Walker is a true HofF player--no question-- who is better? two different eras-- I have no problem if I cannot have one on the team and dont get the other --not much to choose other perhaps Clementes speed
Soxnole--interesting observation here-- seems you speak of Windy City Players only--you do not seem to know too much about players and teams outside of your city--are you a baseball fan or just a soxnole lover
Soxnole-- check you spelling of Colavito's name
bbscout-- I thing Walker is a true HofF player--no question-- who is better? two different eras-- I have no problem if I cannot have one on the team and dont get the other --not much to choose other perhaps Clementes speed
Soxnole--interesting observation here-- seems you speak of Windy City Players only--you do not seem to know too much about players and teams outside of your city--are you a baseball fan or just a soxnole lover
As the conversation progresses - still no mention of my Metsies.
Just totally ignored.
Shamsky - Swoboda and Boswell.
All 3 of them would make mince meat of Walker and Thomas.
I sense anti-Metsie bias.
Just totally ignored.
Shamsky - Swoboda and Boswell.
All 3 of them would make mince meat of Walker and Thomas.
I sense anti-Metsie bias.
TR check your spelling of team, HoF, outside
Txdad
Thanx for the pick up BUT
mine are typos==his is a mispelling of a proper last name--if you cite a player at least know how to spell the name
Also HofF is what I have -- not HoF
Thanx for the pick up BUT
mine are typos==his is a mispelling of a proper last name--if you cite a player at least know how to spell the name
Also HofF is what I have -- not HoF
quote:Originally posted by ClevelandDad:
bbscout,
You have certainly opened my eyes today on what a great defensive player Larry Walker was. As witnessed the other night, a smart base runner as well. With 2160 hits and 383 home runs, I don't see how he possibly makes it with 3000 and 500 being the gold standard for enshrinement in those categories. Good point you made about childhood memories. Clemente never let me down when I was a kid.
CD, Like most, or all of us on this site I have had my heros, and still do. My first was the Mick and Walker just happens to be the guy I have admired over the past ten years or so as I gained an appreciation of what he can do on the baseball field.I mentioned in another thread about the lists that come out on the guys with the best tools in all the pro leagues, and Walker, at age 38, and at 6'3" and 235 lbs was voted the best baserunner in the National League this year.
As far as comparing his offensive stats to Clemente, it stacks up this way.
Ave. Clemente .317, Walker .313
HR's Clemente 240, Walker 383
2B's Clemente 440, Walker 471
100+ RBI's Clemente 2 times, Walker 5 times
100+ Runs Clemente 3 times, Walker 4 times
SB's Clemente 83, Walker 230
Walker accomplished his numbers in 2,547 less AB's than Clemente.
A side note about Larry Walker. He has made 110 Million playing the game, and this is his last year, but he took 5 cortizone shots in his neck this year so that he could still play. That attitude is one of reasons his teammates love him, but it is the same attitude of crashing into walls and getting hurt that has cost him any chance at getting anywhere near 3000 hits.He has spent a lot of time on the DL over the years with very serious injuries. Clemente had 3000 hits and died a very noble death, but do his stats look better than Walkers?
Doug,
You have proven your point with Walker - and for anyone paying any attention the last 10 years - it shouldnt be a surprise.
But my guess is you are afraid to put up the Shamsky and Swoboda numbers against Walker.
Poor Larry dont stand a chance against any '69 Metsie.
You have proven your point with Walker - and for anyone paying any attention the last 10 years - it shouldnt be a surprise.
But my guess is you are afraid to put up the Shamsky and Swoboda numbers against Walker.
Poor Larry dont stand a chance against any '69 Metsie.
Paul, Actually my favorite Met in 1969 is now a good friend who coaches High School ball in Stockton Ca........Bobby Pfeil. He hit .232 in a reserve role that year and still wears his World Series ring every day. He has a million stories of that one golden year in his career.
He has a million stories of that one golden year in his career.
Doug,
Kenny Boswell, Ed Charles and Tommie Agee (RIP).
My favorites.
All friends and all wonderful people.
Ed used to write religious poems and send them to me during the Christmas holidays every year - Tommie Agee was a wonderful person and we did alot of work together after his career ended in NY (worked for title company).
And Kenny B - my all time hero - he always treated me like gold and who - by the way - at one time had the longest consective game errorless streak for a 2B in MLB history.
He was the person I remember most of anyone.
Noone remembers that - but I do.
I love my Metsies.
Kenny Boswell, Ed Charles and Tommie Agee (RIP).
My favorites.
All friends and all wonderful people.
Ed used to write religious poems and send them to me during the Christmas holidays every year - Tommie Agee was a wonderful person and we did alot of work together after his career ended in NY (worked for title company).
And Kenny B - my all time hero - he always treated me like gold and who - by the way - at one time had the longest consective game errorless streak for a 2B in MLB history.
He was the person I remember most of anyone.
Noone remembers that - but I do.
I love my Metsies.
TR. Rocky threw accurately and I've never seen a better arm.
You are right about mis-spelling a person's name. I stand corrected.
You are wrong about misspelling words in general. It makes you look bad anytime you consistently do it.
You are right about mis-spelling a person's name. I stand corrected.
You are wrong about misspelling words in general. It makes you look bad anytime you consistently do it.
My eyes have been opened about Walker.
Thanks, bbscout for enlightening me.
Thanks, bbscout for enlightening me.
soxnole
I respectfully agree to disagree regarding Colavito--one of the strongest arms yes but also one of the most inaccurate--fans used to fight for seats behind third so when he tried to throw the runner out at third they would be in position to catch it as it sailed into the stands
I respectfully agree to disagree regarding Colavito--one of the strongest arms yes but also one of the most inaccurate--fans used to fight for seats behind third so when he tried to throw the runner out at third they would be in position to catch it as it sailed into the stands
ditto soxnole and bbscout. I buy into your argument bbscout. I am the biggest Larry Walker fan in the nation today. I admit I have been ignorant on his fine career. My point on enshrinement is that the people that vote will unfortunately not consider those factors you bring up. In another example, I pray that Omar Visquel makes it someday but am fearful that he won't.