To Many Curveballs?

I am in total agreement. After watching the games, seem like every other pitch is a curveball, sometimes 3 or 4 pitches in a row are. I've said it before if you want to stike out 12 yr olds, throw them curveballs. Should they though? I beleive that they shouldn't throw a curveball until they are 14 or 15. Then have them coached by someone who know how to teach it correctly.

I think we are beating a dead horse though. Too many adult egos get in the way and obviously winning at the age of 13 and under at all costs seems to be the norm.

All you can do as a coach is coach the kids in front of you and hopefully have a positive influence on them.

I teach my kids the importance of a healthy arm and that their goal should be as healthy and prepared as possible for high school baseball.

JMO

Bill Spinelle
Crystal Lake Cardinals' 16yr old manager

could not agree more!, If you want to strike out a high schooler throw him a curve, much less a 12 year old. How many breaking balls did those 2 kids throw last night? I would be willing to bet more than 70%. I would like to see where those two are as Seniors.

I have heard that LL may go to a drop 3rd rule next year. Hopefully they do and this will possibly lower the amount of curveball thrown by these young kids.

The best pitches in baseball are the fastball and change-up.

Also, they should look at the pitching rules. The one kid threw 6 innings on Saturday and then came back on Tuesday to throw another 6 innings. Each outing had to be around 80 pitches.

And they aren't even good curveballs. Ban the curve in LL.

A 12 to 6 curve is very safe, more so than the fastball. The problem is this! Most kids are not taught how to throw the curve properly; what you saw last night was a bunch of sluves and sliders which are brutal on any arm (young or old). So the debate is when to teach a curve... Tough question.... You have to trust the pitcher to be able to throw the cuvre correctly on a regular basis without casting his wrist outside his elbow as he accelerates. This casting is what you typically see out of young pitchers and it turns the pitch into a slurve or slider. The fastball puts far more stress on the arm than a curve thrown properly. Just watch a pitcher throw a fastball in slow motion... you'll be amazed where the elbow ends up! and the postion of the hand durnig the release.

I agree kids are throwing far too many breaking balls, but let's blame the real culprit! THE SLIDER.

12 years of age is pretty young to trust a kid with throwing a proper curve. I do not think he can repeat the proper mechanics on a regular basis. When that kid then throws an unintended slider, thats when the injury occurs.

13 years of age the kid better be able to show some maturity about taking care of his arm and appreciating what could happen if he does not throw a curve they way he was taught by a QUALIFIED COACH.

High School kids with a 5 year baseball track record and some baseball knowledge can usually be instructed to throw the curve properly with or without a coach present.

Finally let's quit playing 80 games a summer, these young kids are getting worn down and ending up with injuries caused by excessive use. Coaches & parents need to take their ego's out of their kids baseball experience.

I could go on and on, but I'll stop here and agree with the basic argument, but it's the slider, not the curve.

TT41,

Here we go again with the same arguments being put forth. It must be LLWS time!

I think you're arguing semantics. No, I don't think 12 or 13 yr olds know how to throw a "proper" curveball, or a slider for that matter. The problem is throwing ANY breaking balls at that age. CB or slider should not be part of a 13 yr olds repetoire. It should be fastball and changeup. As you've heard me say many times (probably too many), I've sat with Dr. Andrews in Birmingham as he explained what he was going to do to my son's elbow the next day, and how sad he gets when he has to do TJ surgery on 12, 13, 14 yr olds. His causes for these injuries are 1) high pitch counts (he says no more than 85 pitches for a HS pitcher! 2) throwing breaking balls before players growth plates are fully developed and 3) younger and younger players going to showcases and amping it up to impress the radar guns. Of course, mechanics play a role but let's remember , this is the man who performs hundreds of TJ and shoulder surgeries annually. "A 12-6 curveball is very safe, more so than a fastball". I think not. I believe Dr. Andrews would say that however a 12 yr old throws a curveball is wrong!

I think Rosy is correct on this one.

I would also like to see where some of the kids end up junior or senior year in high school It just isn't worth the risk to the kids.

On another site, Rich Synek talked about the reaction time and the distances in LL these days. Kids throwing in th 70's from 46' is just asking for an unfortunate incident. They show major league equivelent speeds in the upper 90's. Why expect 12 year olds to hit that pitching? Change the distances #1 for saftey and #2 to improve the game.

There are too many curves, considering a decent change should come first and is very hard to find, even at the HS level.

To the one who mentioned FB and change, I agree 100%.

Sorry Rosy but you are wrong! When a fastball is thrown during release a right handers elbow rotates counter clockwise and virtually hyper extends the elbow at release point; the hand also moves counter clockwise and in slow motion looks like a screwball. The fastball puts a very large amount of pressure on a young pitcher whose growth plates have not sealed yet. Let's take Osgood's Slaughter's (sp???) for example. It is cause by the muscle being stronger than the bone thus pulling the bone away. It is very important for a young pitcher with a great arm to have perfect mechanics for that same reason. A kid that does not throw very hard is at much less of a risk because their muscles are not strong enough to put that much pressure on the bone. Why do you think the young kids who were superstars never play baseball past 14. They had great arms and poor mechanics; they got hurt by the reps and the slider, not a 12 to 6 curve.

Bottom line Rosy!!! Kids should not be playing many games at 12 years old. Their injuries are caused by too many reps.

You say the 12 to 6 curve is unsafe? Explain to me how you throw one. I just told you why too much use and fastball mechanics is tough on a young arm, now you explain to me why a properly thrown 12 to 6 curve is not safer than a fastball.

I’ll tell you about the slider now! During the acceleration phase the hand is cast slightly outside the elbow as the hand moves forward the heal of the hand rotates clockwise, when the ball is released the index finger is directly stacked above the middle finger while the elbow is pointed at the ground and is getting hyper extended by the force of the arm action. This snapping of the elbow is career ending! Now I can write a longer explanation of the curve, but will wait to see you knowledge of a pure 12 to 6 curve since you seem so sure of yourself that the curve is harder on the arm than a fastball.

I look forward to reading how you think a 12 to 6 curve is thrown.

I have given thousands of private pitching lessons and rarely teach the curve before 14 or 15 years of age, but to blame this all on the curve is flat out wrong. It is the slider and too many games. I have had a few 12 year olds who have learned the curve and NONE have ever been injured by it. One is now 1st team college All American in division 1. I know my craft as well as anyone and I will stand by my first response.... Overuse (too many pitches at a young age) and the slider are the culprits, not the curve. Now if you are stating to not throw a curve to learn a good change, I am all for it!!! The change is the greatest pitch in the game. But don't tell me the curve is what is injuring these kids, it is totally false. Go ahead a say slider/slurve but do not include a proper 12 to 6 curve in that group.

TT41m

Whoa! Talk to your wife like that if you wish, not to me. I don't know where you got your degree in kniesiology, orthopedic surgery or jaw flapping but you're in over your head.

I am putting forth information compiled over decades by the pre-eminent physician and surgeon in this area. I didn't plan on meeting him, but circumstances brought us together and I'll be forever grateful that we did. The Alabama Sports Medicine and Orthopeadic Center is as reknowned as is out there. You'd get very similar answers, I'm sure from Dr. Jobe in California and Dr. Kremchek in Cincinatti. Don't lecture us on the fact that you've given thousands of pitching lessons and blah, blah, blah. I don't make any claims of being a pitching coach, but if I was I wouldn't be so cavalier as to think I know more than the top surgeons in the field. If the man says that youngsters should not be throwing curves or whatever you want to call them I believe him. He's the one who has to go in and fix those elbows.

Why don't you just google Dr. James Andrews and read some of the volumes that he has put forth on pitching injuries and the ever increasing injuries in young players. No one said that throwing a curve was the only reason for injuries or even the biggest reason, but it is a big factor in the even increasing number of youth arm injuries which may not present itself until the player is older. These things are cumulative in nature, pitch counts, bad mechanics and breaking balls. Even though you know almost everything there is to know about pitching and arm injuries, maybe even you'll pick up a thing or two that you can use in your next 1000 pitching lessons.

TT,

Agree with you on the over use for sure. To me its all about pitch count and taking care of yourself in between your next pitch count.

I remember asking Dr Andrews the CB and injury question in 1988 , his answer was it doesnt make a difference what pitch you are throwing, the amount of force put on the shoulder and the elbow on any given pitch has enough violence to blow out at any time. He then went on to say the pounds per second put on the joints and it was unreal.

Those kids looked to big for the field IMO..

12 and 6 use to mean something, now its just lunch and dinner.

deucedoc,

I haven't had the pleasure but your reputation as a coach and teacher is certainly out there and I respect that. I would just add that you are talking about a conversation you had with Dr. Andrews back in 1988. It is now 18 years and how many thousands of procedures later and quite possibly he has revised or updated his opinions.

I would agree with that, but I still think its the violent action against a joint more then CB or FB.

Time sure flys when your having fun!

And unforunatly I had more converstaions with the Doc in 87-89 and 90

WHEN IT HURTS , QUIT THROWING!

"When It Hurts, Quit Throwing!"

Best advice yet.

Dr. Timothy Kremchek from Ohio has operated (TJ)on several of my friends major leagues arms. Look up his articles on TJ surgeries in 11-15 year olds. Overuse, overpitching, (he has guidelines for pitching counts at this age), like deuce says, stop when it is hurting!! They want the win too much at this age and are not aware of the consequences of over pitching. At this age, the adults (coaches) should be stopping them if they cannot stop themselves. Fatique is a big factor as well. A kid cannot throw his pitch correctly if he is tired, pitch count too high. Mechanics are off, stress on the arm, and there you go. I agree with TT. Reps and the slider is what is hurting these guys. Where are the parents of these kids?? How many of these guys will be playing at the next level after high school, if they make it there?!? As we all know, pitching is not a natural movement of our arms; at 12 years old, playing 80 games a summer?? No wonder these guys are not around at 16 years old. Think about it now. How many guys did your kid play with at this age are still playing baseball? 0 for my childs age group. THe pressure is too great for these kids. Adults should be stepping in here.

Just as I thought Rosy! You don't know! Show me you know something before flapping your know it all jaw. You know NOTHING about pitching and you just proved it.

Here, this is for you............

Let’s just start at the top of the arm action, as the elbow passes the ear, the hand is folded inward with the knuckles pointed toward the sky as if you were showing the catcher the letter “ C” at this point the lower and upper arm form a 90 degree angle (the hand is now on the right side of the ball for a righty)… as the hand accelerates forward the knuckles now move in front of the baseball as if you were pulling down a window shade until they are pointing toward the catcher (during this time the 90 degree angle slightly extends toward the plate, but never anywhere near full extension. The elbow is pointed at a 45 degree angle toward 3rd, not right at the ground as in the slider or slurve)… You are basically spinning the ball with the bottom or right edge of the middle finger and it’s knuckle (NO SNAPPING, FLIPPING or CASTING) as taught by many!
As the ball rolls off of the index fingers knuckle
the middle fingers knuckle now begins to tug
under the ball as the slight extension of the elbow returns to the original 45 degree angle. You should end up with your right shoulder under you chin with you arm bent at a 45 degree angle with the back of your hand facing the ground once again showing the catcher the letter “C”, only this time the fingers make the bottom of the C and the thumb the top. Obviously there is a ton more to this and I have done 1 ½ hour clinics on the curve alone. I have not even addressed the leg and hip action in all of this and how it takes the load, not the arm as well as the role a great follow through has in all of this. NO TENSION OR LOCKOUT AT ALL IN THIS METHOD!!!!! But there is a lot more……….. than this if you have the time.

You made the comment the 12 to 6 curve thrown properly is unsafe, I asked you why and you cannot answer it........... Mmmmmmmmmm

I guess these Doc's ought to be coaching in the Big's since they know mechanics better than anyone else huh? That make no sense. I better go see the Doc to straighten out my golf swing LOL!!!!!!!

I have probably over 60 years of results to back my claims what do you have?

I am truely sorry to hear about your son, but if he got injured, his mechanics were bad or he had far too many reps at a young age. Sounds like he was one of the kids I refer to as strong enough to put real pressure on their joints and bones, but did not have the mechanics to absorb the load and stress. His arm obviously took on most of this while you would want the larger stronger muscles of the core, hips and legs to take on this burden.

quote:

Originally posted by FastballDad:
And they aren't even good curveballs. Ban the curve in LL.

Then why dont the hitters ever hit it?

Can someone explain to me why it was that 3 years ago everyone was teaching "Mark Pryor" mechanics since they were so perfect. So now why all the arm injuries? I would really like an answer on this one.

TT41,

You have problems sir. I'd say many, many hours on a therapists couch kind of problems.

What don't you understand? I never claimed to be a pitching coach. I am a fan of the game and the father of a HS player. All I've put forth is some information that everyone but you might be able to process in their brains. And if your asking if Dr. Andrews has more credibility than you regarding arm injuries and their causes, you are even more hopeless than I thought.

I wasn't aware until you started this nonsense that piching coaches were the end all, be all when it came to protecting pitchers. A kniesiologist would be happy to show you all of the mechanical flaws of college and professional pitchers that pitching coaches either don't recognize or haven't a clue how to fix.

If you want to impress us with discussions about 45 degree angles and all the rest of your drivel, I guess it's a free country.

You don't need a doc to straighten out your golf swing, you need a doc to straighten out your head. Oh yeah, please address the leg and hip action. We can't wait.

I'm over and out on this thread.

We can tell you're from the South; the title of the thread should be "too many curveballs"

Take a look at Reyes with St. Louis. He is a USC kid and he looks like Prior used to. Prior changed some things to compensate after his leg injury a few years ago during his collision and never recovered. Dave Otto did a nice piece on this doing a side by side comparison of pre and post injury films and Prior changed his arm action and leg kick. Prior used to drop his arm down then lead back and up with the knuckles of his throwing hand until he got on top (this action is free of tension) Post injury he would start out by dropping his throwing hand down but then quickly lead back with his elbow (almost a shortarm action) when he got near the top of his arm circle he would accelerate that elbow forward and the hand would fly backward ( this action called the rebound effect) puts big time tension on the shoulder and elbow. I cannot for the life of me figure out why Rothchild has not fixed this.

Hey Rosy- Still waiting for the answer! Your smoke screen of insults won't work here. You called me out, I answered. I called your bluff and you have nothing.

I simply stated that a 12 to 6 curve thrown properly is safer than the fastball, you said "I think not"

Explain that for me...
I gave you my reasons biomechanically based, you have yet to answer with any concrete information.

Rip.....Why I don't think they are good curves

They don't have any bite
They break early and for a long time

Why they don't hit them
Change of speed
And they aren't good enough hitters yet to take advantage of the lack of bite

Hey fellas

a lot of good remarks...I always love the bickering!!

for years we have discussed this problem, its something that never gets old and keeps coming up

I guess my next question is....what can people do to prevent it. If a 13 or 14 year old kid is having major reconstructive surgery thats a big problem. Who should be held accountable? What rules can be put in to prevent this? I just dont think winning at the little league level or even the high school level is worth ruining a player

Our team doctor, Dr Pete Tonino was writing articles and going on tv talking about this ten years ago and it seems like its getting worse

If the trend continues what will it be like it ten years?

BTW Im not from the south I just live here

TT41-

Maybe someone will pick up Pryor and fix him. Seems like a real waste... but that's the Cubs for you.

Maybe the pain in is his arm and shoulder is not allowing him to put his arm into a safe slot. Mike Marshall did a nice piece on Prior and his injury 2 years ago in the Daily Herald. Who know's.... Prior may be too far gone. Watch Reyes, he's going to be a great one! His follow through is perfect. His right hip rolls completely over and points his knee towards 1st, his shoulder ends up under his chin and his back is flat! No tension at all running down the throwing side of his body. A flawless safe tension free load distributing follow through. I feel bad for Prior, he had all the tools to be great!!

Heres my thoughts on the arm injury/Cb theory.
Not that anyone cares.
Most of what I say I say with my own experiences and not something I am reading about.
IMO, I feel the problem or problems are not one thing or the other.
Fact, the overhand throw is not a natural movement for the body, the underhand toss would be. Therefore we are cranking things the opposite direction. Things better be strong and in tact. Bringing me to my next point of all the innings these young kids are burning
up innings at a age when their bodies arent ready for it. Then good ole coach will run him out to SS for the second game of a DH or tomorrows game.
I am not saying playing alot of baseball is a bad thing because I feel the more you play the better you get. I am saying that you better have a enough pitching to cover your arms.
Then there is the most important thing about the whole deal. Pitching the baseball with proper mechanics so that your body is in the strongest position possible when the violence occurrs in the joints.
Rosey, I hear what you are saying but I would be willing to bet if you asked the Doc what he thought was the worst thing about pitching that tears up arms he would answer , pitching. What people do not realise is that if you pitch, you will more than likely have some work done at some point, I assure you if you look at the guys in MLB and AAA and have pitched a while, that they have had something done with their arms.
It is unnatural
If it is done with bad mechanics and is unnatural it only compounds the problems.
If you arent strong enough to keep things in tact and throw this unnatural motion with bad mechanics, it makes it worse.
Then when you have a coach with the win at all costs mentality and throw in these, well you might just have the reason I feel kids arms break down.
Seen way to many times in tournaments teams run out of pitching and leave a kid out on the hill to get them through. Meantime he is out of gas and doing everything possible to hurt himself.
IMO, if you pitch, you run the risk of arm problems, that simple..
If you pitch you will most likley always have a little something not feeling great, its part of the deal. Learn the difference between pain and a little soreness or stiffness. Listen to your body, it will let you know.

Kids imo,(10-13) arent strong enough to throw a proper 12-6 thus you have the poor breaking balls that we see on LL games. Nor can their small fingers get over the ball when its time for Mr window shade. I was doing a bullpen with Jackie Brown back in the day and he whipped the old shade out on me.. And if anyone remembers Jackie, he had a doosie CB! TT, your throwing terms from the old days. I love it!

I will show a kid a breaking ball when I beleive he is strong enough to throw it correctly. Age to me varies on size of kid.
Pre game and post game care are huge for pitchers, often spoke of but how many really take care of themselves like they should?

You could argue this until whenever, just my thoughts.

Oh yeh, how about old timer out there saying we need to throw more, back in the day when Rocky used to go the distance every start.

Be smart people. There are only so many bullets in those little pistols. Want to see good stuff, watch Roger Clemens throw, listen to Roger talk about how important his legs are in his dilivery. How important his core is and why he has lasted so long,( and even he has had work done)

Sorry for the long one.

Bill, I can't tellyou how right I beleive you are about the after care. As some of you know, my son pitches and plays center. I have told him repeatedly to ice after games. I see kids throw and just sit around after games. it drives me crazy....it is not a natural motion. these kids need to ice....ice...and ice after each game for at least 20 minutes to 1/2 hour. then strecth the next day, properly strecth.2nd day throw a little 3rd day long toss a little...gosh, it just drives me crazy to see these little guys throwing more than 50 percent breaking stuff. when we(prairie gravel travel)were 10 11 12, sam would let our guys throw a maximum of 4 curves a game. use the change and 2 fastballs. i can't read about a 12 yr old throwing curve after curve, makes me nuts....not that i need help in that category.

Duce- Could not agree with you more. The curve is safe, the question is when is the kid capable of throwing it properly. It is totally based of the level of skill, strength and coordination a kid has. People want to blame the curve when these kids are actually throwing sliders and sluves that they think are cuvres. People are giving the curve a bad name in a blanket statement on breaking balls.

The fastball is tough on the arm and these kids are playing far too many games and pitching far too many innings because of a pushy parent or coach. The reps and poor mechanics are why, not the curve itself.

I am in total agreement on arm angle, the only reason you do not see more sidearm and underhand pitchers is because the opposite side hitter will wear them out. Softball pitchers can pitch almost every game because it is a natural safe motion, sidearm is next in line as far as lack of stress, the problem here is that a left hand hitter gets a good long look at a right handers side arm delivery thus being at a very big advantage and is the same for a LHP vs a right hand hitter.

As far a Clemmens and legs/core. I have be instructing my students to get involved in Pilates. Pilates is one of the greatest ways to strengthen the core. When your core and legs are strong they take on much of the load instead of the arm. It ia amazing to see the strength in Clemmens' legs and how he achives balance through superior leg strength. He has tremendous balance because he has strengthend the smaller stabilizing muscles in his legs.

I enjoyed reading your post, you have a very good handle on things!

[

Deucedoc, I would say that you nailed it. Play alot, pitch within strict limits, and take care of your arm (or you'll be out of the game).

TT41, I agree with a vast majority of what you say, but the way you say it scares me a little. While I agree that a curve ball thrown properly is a safe pitch, I suggest that the majority of people (probably including leading surgeons and many high school and most lower level coaches) don't really understand what a "properly thrown" curve is. And if they don't know what it is, they certainly can't teach it.

In my experience, most youth parents and coaches refer to anything that spins and breaks as a curve, when, in fact, most of the pitches being thrown are sliders.

The fact is, most kids are not taught how to throw a curve by a qualified coach...they teach themselves and each other. By the time I was 10 years old, I could make a whiffle bal break 4 or 5 feet in either direction (self taught). By the time I was 12, I could make right handed batters dive out of the box on a called strike. By the time I was 14, I could barely throw.

When I am finally put in charge of things, I will ban everything except fastballs and change ups from youth baseball. And when each player reaches his 14th birthday, he will need to go and see TT41 to learn how to throw the curve the proper way.

IMHO,

Mike F

For what it's worth, and I have a nice zipper on my arm too, as a parent of a pitcher I would seriously think real hard before sending my kid to all these winter showcases when their arm is not in mid-season form. Max effort does not seem like the right thing to be doing in December thru Feb. If someone wants to brag about their kid hitting 92 mph in January, go for it. Not in my house and I don't care- come see them during the season when they are in real shape. I have no research to back that up however. One other opinion, I really think the pitcher's arm needs to shut down for a period during the winter. Maybe some of this is just intuition but that is how we do it in our house and so far, the arms are healthy. I agree with Duece, throwing ain't natural and as many styles of throwing that are out there as well as an equal number of body builds, I really don't understand why "mechanically" one guy breaks down and another doesn't when they do the exact same thing "wrong."

quote:

I really don't understand why "mechanically" one guy breaks down and another doesn't when they do the exact same thing "wrong."

It depends on workload and forces no one can control, part of it might be luck. Everyone has different tolerances as far as pain, fatigue, and what not. Some pitchers are max-effort and some are less, there's variations all over the place that are different. Different in-season and out of season workout and nutrition programs, etc. There was some expressed some concern at the Barrington tourney earlier this month about the workload. Some of these kids need to take some time off now, IMO, get focused on their Junior and Senior years as well as final prep work for selecting a university. I definitely don't think 2-3 weeks off would be a bad thing given some of the heavy workloads of the Spring/Summer schedules.

NC

I guess it is like Osgood Slaughter's (sp?) Some kids get it some kids do not. It has to be that some kids muscles are too strong for their bones. These kids can generate too much force for their bones and joints to handle while some kids do not have the muscle strength to do it. I have always felt that young kids who throw hard better have perfect mechanics or you will never see them on a high school baseball field. Kids who do not throw as hard still need good mechanics, but are not putting the same amount of stress on their bones and joints thus are less of a risk to get injured. Your points are well taken. These kids are throwing way too much in game and showcase situations, they are maxing out and just trying to impress a radar gun. Pitching is about disrupting a hitters timing, not just trying to chuck it as hard as you can!!! Until pushy parents and coaches of these so called elite teams realize it is about kids, the parents and coaches themselves pitchers and players will continue to come up with injuries caused by excessive use.

Many parents have pushed their kids so hard that their kids have been injured. It is easy for them to say "My kid was injured by the curveball" when in fact the blame is squarely on the PUSHY parent for allowing their kid to throw that much. They are looking for someone or something else to blame. You can't blame the kid, they'll just throw and throw, the adult has to be the one to say "Hey.... shut it down!"

I know the guy works at it as hard as anybody in the business, but it still amazes me to see Roger Clemons do what he is doing at his age. Nolan Ryan was in the same class too. Maybe a geneticist can someday find that gene...

I had to get another “cup o’ joe” before reading dueces’ last thread. Great discussion! There is a lot to take from this thread if you’re reading between the line. I wish I had all this combined knowledge available to me when “the lanky lefty” was coming through the travel and HS ranks. Thank GOD that, through accident, design, or Devine Providence, we had the good fortune to cross paths with the likes of Bill Copp and Mike Palmer. The combined knowledge, experience, and common sense of these two, priceless! Thank you.

I have heard this countless times; the best two pitches are the fastball and the change (the combination of the two). What makes them effective is not the speed of the fastball (within reason) but the ability to locate it and the difference in speed between your fastball and the change. Another point, you can do a lot with a fastball by just changing the gripe, 2 seam/4seam, etc. Isn’t that what a change up is, basically a “palmed” fastball? If that’s the case, why do you need to fool around with breaking/cutting stuff until you are physically capable? Most parents and young men do not realize this when a traveling coach or inexperienced pitching coach is teaching cut fastballs and curves at 12-14 years old.

Some of the pearls of wisdom from this thread…

“I know most coaches don’t care what happens to players after they leave the program.” ~ indians08

“The best pitches in baseball are the fastball and change-up.” ~ Gamer

“CB or slider should not be part of a 13 yr olds repertoire. It should be fastball and changeup.” ~ itsrosy

“To me its all about pitch count and taking care of yourself in between your next pitch count.” ~ deucedoc
“12 and 6 use to mean something, now its just lunch and dinner.” ~ duecedoc
“WHEN IT HURTS , QUIT THROWING!” ~ duecedoc

“Coaches & parents need to take their ego's out of their kids baseball experience.” ~ TT41

“We can tell you're from the South; the title of the thread should be "too many curveballs"” ~ ballyall

“it drives me crazy… makes me nuts…not that I need help in that category.” ~ sweaty

“A man’s got to know his limitations” ~ Dirty Harry Callahan

Bottom line, it is the responsibility of the parent(s) and/or player to educate themselves and arm (no pun intended) themselves with the proper knowledge so that they can made intelligent decisions. When you are a 12-14 year old stud superman (or parent of one) it can be hard to realize that baseball is not a sprint, a 40 yard dash. However, ignorance will not explain a career ending injury. Just ask some of those posting here.

“Once you fatigue, it affects your mechanics and you can’t pitch with the precise timing required for a smooth, compact motion.” ~ Nolan Ryan

I will rephrase

"some coaches dont care what happens to players once they leave the program"

isnt it the coaches responsability to educate the players? Im sorry but at the ages of 12-14 year olds a coaches job is still to teach and prepare. Shouldnt that be the goal of every coach? To teach and prepare? What schools have the best programs? the ones who have great coaching up and down a program...not just a bunch of science teachers who read a book on baseball who want to make a few extra bucks

I keep reading Roger Clemens name hear as one that does things right along with Nolan ryan. Do you think part of their "luck "to last that long came from genetics, but another part was their work ethic. It seems I have heard Clemens quoted numerous times that game day should be the easy day, making refernce to how hard he works on his "days off" He also always mentions that as a player or developing player you have to enjoy the journey to get to game day, that being the workouts, gym, the routines after you pitch ect.