To throw or not to throw?

I would go w option 3

he can do a velocity program after christmas. They have an off season/season routine.

good luck

My son chose to go option three.  I wanted to shut him down for an extended period of time and concentrate on strength training.  He said he will rest for a couple of weeks, while lifting, then just add in some long toss through-out the winter

In our case, it's very difficult to stop throwing as he is attending a few school camps that he is interested in and they want to see him pitch.  We are trying to have the camps coincide with an unofficial visit.  It may not be the ideal way to do it, but son is basically long tossing only 3 days per week.  No bullpens nor flat ground.  I know he may not be quite as sharp as he needs to be at the camps, but I would rather sacrifice a little control for protecting his arm as much as possible.  Now he did throw very little over the past season (spring, summer and fall), probably less than 30 total innings.  Hopefully that light load will allow him to throw more over the winter than we normally would.  I think typically I would follow option 3.

Bum, Jr. did long-toss year-round.. 5-6 times per week.  After the fall season ended in October he gave mound work a rest until about mid-December, when he would begin again.  So I guess 2 months off.  Meanwhile, this "off" period was devoted to weight training, cardio, and a plyometric sessions twice weekly. 

I would go with option 3. My son's pitching coach 12yrs mlb 4 minors always had my son shut down for 2-3 months. Started throwing mid January to get ready for the upcoming hs season. No sure it was luck or good coaching, but never missed a start in all of hs. Also played first base when not pitching. He would continue to train during that time, but would not throw. 

If the pros shut down for a couple months, wouldn't it make sense that young arms should as well. Just my opinion, not an expert, just a dad who relied on people who knew way more than me. I would suggest that you will get a lot of good advice here.

We're in the same boat as younggun.  Son's a 2015 LHP who has had a decent amount of interest, e-mails, calls following a strong fall showcase in mid-October.  This has resulted in a bunch of "personal" invites to camps this Winter.  Our normal routine which has been very successful for us (never had any arm issues) has been to shut down mid October until early-mid December.  We have started down that road this year, and we have turned down the October and November Camp invites no matter how attractive.  There are a couple camps in December that Junior really wants to attend, so we may lean towards starting a bit earlier this year (catch once or twice a week until Thanksgiving than build back up slowly 2-3 times a week for the following 3 weeks.).  We've only been to one camp so far: Junior threw a 15-20 pitch bullpen and then two innings in a game setting  .... probably 50-60 pitches total.  Would this be a similar number that we could  expect to see at an indoor winter camp or a showcase?

Sincere thanks for the responses.  There's no doubt that light throwing or even no real throwing for Nov and Dec is the ideal scenario. What my son is wrestling with is the benefits of resting his arm verses the benefits of spending that time in an off-season pitching work-out scenario.  There are a couple of intensive off-season pitching programs offered here in Dallas area.  A lot of plyometrics, agility and explosive strength training geared specifically toward pitchers.  But these also include bullpen sessions aimed at max effort velocity gains and that's the part that concerns me.  Son wants to do the program because he feels that he needs to add velocity by next season to hold his spots on both HS and Summer team rotations, which is probably the case.

My question is which is likely to be of more benefit to him; taking the two months off and recuperating or staying on it and drilling for more velocity.  It's the usual catch-22... you want them to stay healthy but you have to earn your spot.

Go with three. Don't underestimate the mental side also. Kids need to get away and enjoy life a bit. Take up golf.

3

3.  2015 LHP has always taken off mid-October for two months.  Great time to hit weights hard and clear his head.  

Soylent, do the training program but make clear to them the bullpen sessions should focus on mechanics not extreme velocity.  This is where true velocity comes from anyways.

BTW what is "Max Effort Velocity"?  Pitching should be fluid and low effort.

Soylent Green, I will give you a two part answer...answer 1 is what my son did at your boys age…answer 2 is how I would advise him if he had it to do it over again.

Part 1 - My player is now 23 so it’s been awhile since he was your guy’s age…back then he did a modified version of option 2 & 3.  Took off November from mound work and then ramped up for a Holiday Showcase event toward the end of December. While he didn’t throw with max effort he did pitch in game situations so he continued with his bullpen work until the event.  He then took off January with no throwing and then in February started his throwing program to get ready for his high school season.  While he was healthy after this schedule the truth is he needed more rest than he allowed himself.

Part 2 - if he had to do it over again he would go with something closer to option 1.  Jerseyson currently plays professionally and his off season regiment is this.  After the season ends he doesn’t do anything but cardio for one month.  He then starts strength/conditioning work with focus on improving his flexibility from October to Mid-December (no throwing).  At that point he starts his throwing program in mid-December and it will take him into Spring Training in late February.

I don’t know you son’s physical makeup however IMO after throwing 100 innings his arm/body need some rest (especially if he is a two way player).  While all our boys are looking for more velocity, after years of nagging injuries Jersyson has found that proper rest and conditioning is the key to him having a healthy season. 

Someone once told me that a pitcher only has so many bullets in their gun…don’t use all your ammo before it is really needed.  Not sure that is totally true but I do think it makes sense to temper the amount of wear and tear on a player’s young arm.

Good luck!

Jersey, good post.  I just need to add some thoughts.

I think it was PG Staff who once said (to paraphrase) "The safest thing to do is not throw at all."  His point was, at some point a decision needs to be made.  For a h.s. elite pitcher entering his junior or senior year, yeah, it would be safe to shutdown but oftentimes a big offseason jump is made by continuing to work at it.

Bum, Jr. also pitches professionally, and they do shut them down for a period.  The team pays the bills, so you do what they say.  But when he was in h.s. he had a jump of 9 miles per hour on his fastball working in the offseason after his sophomore year.  Without that huge jump, he would have never gone D1 let alone pitch professionally. 

I guess what I'm saying is this:  What is the point of saving the "bullets" if the bullets sit in the gun for lack of use?.

If that doesn't convince people on the fence about the value of long toss I don't know what would.

Thanks again for the input from all... it is greatly appreciated.  Gaining these first hand experiences is what makes this board so invaluable and why I've read it through the years as my son has progressed through ranks, so to speak.

Bum - "Max Effort Velocity" is my own description, meant to deliniate the type of throwing that the program son is interested in will call for as opposed to a more mechanics based approach that you described previously... where maybe guys are isolating the bottom half, weight transfer, glove seperation, etc and then throwing a ball at maybe 75% effort as part of the process; ie working on mechanics without any real focus on generating velocity. My understanding of the off-season program we're considering is that they wrap up the 90 mins or so of fairly intense conditioning and drilling, and then spend a good half hour heating up the arms and throwing at max effort, radar guns tracking and being recorded, three times a week.  This also includes the use of weighted balls, although using these is purely at each pitchers descretion.  I have read with interest the debate on weighted balls on this forum over the past couple of years.  The program is based largely on Ron Wolforth's approach.

But your last post on this thread really hammers home the crux of our dilemna.  Your son is where mine hopes to be... where most every serious HS pitcher hopes to be.  Son is serious about getting to the D1 level and recognizes fully that he has miles to go.  Importantly to me, he wants to take on this off-season workout.  In past years, I have basically dictated that he shut things down for a few months and recuperate, which he has done without much care one way or another.  He also played football and hoops in past years.  Now, he's become a year round baseball guy and after a freshman year where he got roughly 25 innings on the varsity hill, he has become hyper-focused on becoming a more competitive pitcher... both for HS and also for his summer team, which is among the more competitive rosters in our area... lots of talent to compete with for innings and starts.  We all know that velocity is crucial in gaining attention, too important in my opinion but velo is what the scouts, camps, and summer and HS coaches look to first and foremost. 

Your post hits it squarely on the head: what's the point in saving bullets if you end up getting passed by?  Having read and studied on the topic of arm health a fair amount, my head says "shut him down for a couple of months"... but my gut says "now may be the time to let him go for it... get out of his way".  Sort of "if not now, when?".  Difficult to tell him "no go" on the off season program (despite a healthy savings in cash outlay for me) and then watch should he lose opportunity come Spring and Summer.  All that said, son is still just 15 and heading into Soph season this Spring... so my current vaciliation on the matter is to force him to wait a year... let him develop physically a bit more... he is certainly still growing... and then think about this type program for next off-season, between his soph and junior years.

As always, interested in specific examples and expereinces from this board.  Many thanks.

SG-

Similar situation here.  Same age and same part of the country as well.

Based on feedback son is transitioning from primary position player to primary pitcher.  He too pitched some on varsity this last year and plays for a competitive travel team.

FWIW he is going with taking about a month off.  Band work, strength and conditioning and plyometrics since the end of August.  Throwing program with long toss starts end of November and runs 60 days up to beginning of HS season.

Mine too needs to add velocity.  He seems to be adding 3mph every six months or so since he has started working with the same trainer.  Hoping that continues but if need be we may look at some other type of training next summer.  We are usually bounced in the second round of the playoffs(last three years) so that too gives another 6 weeks or so of possible training before the summer season kicks into high gear.

Soylent, I have always been a big advocate of continued throwing, not just light throwing but long-toss.  I believe it builds sound mechanics (consistent arm slot), increases arm speed and promotes arm health.  FYI a lot of MLB clubs now fully endorse long-toss.

As for mound work, provided your son has correct mechanics and doesn't start too soon before the season, I believe this will only help him.  If qualified instructors are working with him they should be able to fix minor or major flaws before real damage is done. 

Good luck to your son.  I have a suspicion, based on your positive attitude and concern he'll reach his goal of D1 and beyond.

Originally Posted by Soylent Green:

I guess one of my dilemnas is whether this type of training is better for building velocity or whether resting the arm (and working out) might actually do more to increase velo?

 Soylent, while you’re pondering all the great advice, try this mental exercise. Try to make a reasonable guess as to how much velocity would be gained with the greatest winter program coupled with the greatest coaching. Then make a reasonable guess about how much would be gained by simply natural growth if he did nothing and started the spring season with the same coaches and mechanics he has now.

If you really believe he’s gonna pick up anywhere from 5-10 mph more by the most rigorous program with the best coaches than if he did nothing, I say go for it. But whatever you do, try to use REASONABLE numbers, not wishes or what some coach promises he can do. Good Luck!

Reasonable might only be 2-4.  But that 2-4 might be the difference maker.

ASMI recommends

#2. No overhead throwing of any kind for at least 2-3 months per year (4 months is preferred). No competitive baseball pitching for at least 4 months per year.

#3 Do not pitch more than 100 innings in games in any calendar year.

Originally Posted by Bum:

Reasonable might only be 2-4.  But that 2-4 might be the difference maker.

I can’t help asking if that 2-4 guess is with the greatest program coupled with the greatest coaching or with any program and coaching.

I guess what I’m trying to find out, is whether its really worth the effort. I know the situation should always dictate, but I don’t know if I’ve ever seen a HS player gain 2-4 MPH between fall ball and the start of the spring season.

Its not that I believe a total shutdown is necessary though. My son didn’t play another sport during the winter, and actually enjoyed throwing once or twice a week when the weather permitted? Not pitching, not long toss. Just out in the driveway messing around with dad or up at the field with a friend playing catch and maybe “snapping off a few”. If he wanted to, which was almost every week, we’d head over to his pitching coach for a “maintenance” pen. Nothing furious, but just a chance to stay loose with someone watching to make sure there was some discipline involved. The whole thing was done so there wouldn’t be such a huge effort needed at the beginning of the spring so he wouldn’t experience the almost inevitable stiff or sore arm, but it wasn’t to gain velocity.

He threw at 74 as a 5’6/122# 13YO Fr in the fall of 2000, and when he graduated from HS could hit 89 on the gun as a 5’9”/135# 17YO Sr in 2004, and never lifted a weight or did a long toss program. That’s about 4MPH per year on average, and to tell the truth, I never though any more was necessary. Of course that was 2000-2004, and times they have a’changed.

Bum, Jr. was clocked at 81 at a college camp in the fall of his sophomore year, consistent with PG who had him at 79 a few months earlier.  The spring of his junior year he hit 88, clocked by his D1 team who immediately verbally committed him.  Nine MPH in less than one year.

He long-tossed nearly every day during that period.

Originally Posted by Bum:

…He long-tossed nearly every day during that period.

Then why doesn’t every player who long tosses enjoy the same kind of “success”?

All I’m saying is, there’s a certain amount of improvement that going to take place simply because people get better as they grow closer to physical and mental maturity. That improvement can of course be helped along, but at what price?

I don't know, you tell me.  He's in pro ball and his arm is fine.  You tell me where he'd be if he didn't work his arss off.  Probably in grad school.  Certainly not on a baseball diamond.

BTW to question why "every player" who long-tosses doesn't make it is ridiculous.  Why doesn't every player who tosses 95?  Every player who is drafted in the 1st round?  So many variables. What long-toss does is improve your chances.  That's all.

One of our guys is taking 3 weeks off of throwing because he is an elite prospect who threw a bazillion innings for scout teams, summer teams, high school, etc. Other than that, we're not recommending that our guys take time off of throwing.

On the other hand, our guys aren't touching a mound until January.

I don't want to stray too far, but there must be hundreds of juniors each year that throw 88+ and don't long toss.  Something worked for them.

Now, if lots of guys (not one or two) jump from 90 to 95 after a 6 week (not after a full year of growth) long toss program (or any other program), now that would get my attention. (Call me )

First, I'm a believer in a long toss program and usually a believer in a year round throwing program. That's throwing not pitching. But, circumstances for each individual will vary and should be seriously considered. Sometimes a year round throwing program is unwarranted and unnecessary. Often times natural ability and natural growth are what are best prescribed.
I won't give you velocities because I've learned from experience on this board that daddies are "nicely" discredited. Through my son's freshman year he had been on a year round long toss throwing program. His velocity was X to Z. After finishing his freshman year on varsity, in his first summer start he felt discomfort in his arm. After consulting his orthopedic doctor it was determined he should take about 4 weeks off and resume a throwing program. This was in June.When he resumed his throwing program in July, he still felt discomfort in his arm and was advised to take another 4 weeks off.  He started his throwing program again in August and after 6 weeks of throwing, he pitched an inning in a scout league and was radared by an mlb scout at Z+3. He eventually admitted he still felt discomfort in his arm. We shut him down and went back to the doctor for additional testing.  With all the structural testing and mri being negative, it took until December 31st of that year to get a final diagnosis. So for 6 months he did virtually no throwing. He started back on January 1 with restrictions to not throw beyond 120 feet. In his first scrimmage the first week of February,  he was radared at Z+4. By playoffs, following the very limited throwing program,  He was pitching Z+6. Moral of the story is,  even without a Bum Jr. type throwing program (even one that we prescribed to), he gained 6 miles an hour over a nine month period. Due to the success of his high school program and the demands of his summer ball,  he has decided to shut it down this fall at the advice of his very seasoned pitching coach and that of the college coaches who are recruiting him. Now this fall he will spend time in the weight room,  is doing plyometrics and general conditioning. I don't worry about the velocity because we've learned that when he starts throwing again, he will gain velocity through his God given talent, proper mechanics and natural maturation.
I believe velocity gains come from this order
1. Genetics
2. Natural maturation
3. Mechanics
4. Work ethic (throwing program, etc.)

Originally Posted by Bum:

BTW to question why "every player" who long-tosses doesn't make it is ridiculous.  Why doesn't every player who tosses 95?  Every player who is drafted in the 1st round?  So many variables. What long-toss does is improve your chances.  That's all.

Why is it ridiculous to question someone’s logic? You’re the one making it seem as though long toss is the “answer”, not me.

But you are correct about there being a lot of variables. In fact, there are so many that its entirely possible long toss may do more harm than good for some, so it should be made out to be the “magic pill”.

AGDAD19,

I don’t know about the order of where velocity gains come from, but that’s really immaterial. The point you, I, and some others are making is, “one size does not fit all”.

Here’s how crazy it gets. I have a very very good friend who was a ML pitching coach for over 10 years. He’s so dead set against LT for pitchers, its scary. One of his good friends who once pitched for him has also been a ML pitching coach, and he has no problems at all with pitchers doing LT, but stopped his son from doing it until he got into college. Both of those guys were pitching coaches for ML teams that won a WS, so its not as though they’re a couple of bums.

As you said, circumstances for each individual will vary and should be seriously considered. Its just that simple.

I think throwing in the off season, long toss, weighted balls, Olympic style lifts, etc., are all sworn by those who have had success, and more importantly jumps in velo afterwards.  I have seen these discussions often, and the debate is always the same:

1.  Did the gains come from the program?

2.  Would the gains have come anyway?

On top of that, there are "scientific" studies out there that prove, and disprove the benefits or negative results of each of those.  Here again, most studies can be formatted in ways to obtain desired results.  If folks had more than anecdotal evidence (my son did it, and now throws x MPH), but rather large control groups, then maybe there could be good evidence one way or another.

I think at the end of the day, everyone needs to gather as much "reliable" information out there, talk to others to see what they believe worked, and then make a customized decision for their specific player. 

There are definitely lots of techniques to build durable-strong arms.  Obviously, genetics plays a huge role on the potential/ceiling of a particular arm.  All these workouts help achieve peak performance at a given time.  Bad techniques could also lead to injuries so having professional oversight is key.

Don't forget that arm band workouts are essential to a healthy and strong arm.  I recommend continue the workout during the off-season of your son plans to stop throwing for a spell.