Tommy John's advice to baseball parents

Stats, agree that pitch count is better than innings. And my son's coaches are using pitch count (e.g., the reason he has a 2/3 of an inning this fall is because one game he was on a 30 pitch limit and he only got through 1 and 2/3; when he got to 30 pitches he was pulled). I'm just tracking innings because it's easier for me , and I know that they are counting pitches.

Originally Posted by 2019Dad:

…I'm just tracking innings because it's easier for me , and I know that they are counting pitches.

 

I was responding to your question about a prior post and it’s referencing using other factors. FWIW, inning limitations are better than none. Pitch counts alone are better than innings alone, and a combination of the two is better still. Taking other factors into account such as the number of pitches made with runners on, where runners are, the inning, the score, and the number of outs is even better. If I could, I’d love to take into account the weather, the field, the coaches, and any of a million other factors.

 

If some kind of computer technology is being used to keep score, it’s easier to do that, but there will never be a way to account for every possible factor. That’s why I reduce everything to a single number generated by the software I use to keep score for stress and another for additional pitches. All anyone has to do who wants to know what those numbers are has to do at any point in time, is to ask.

 

If you were a parent of a player I scored for, one of many different reports I could give you is the attached, then you wouldn’t have to keep track of anything.

Yeah. Throwing year 'round I see. My kid does it. I don't see the benefit of completely taking a significant time off of throwing. We don't do that for any other body part when it comes to conditioning. I just keep hearing people mention throwing competitively year around and I don't see it - and I see a lot of stuff. I'm sure it happens. I just don't think there is an epidemic of it.

Per my earlier post, I do think many/most college pitchers throw 'competitively' year around.  Team scrimmages are most definitely competitive.  Having 2-3 weeks off here and there doesn't count much for shutdown IMO.  I base that on listening to our sons talk about how 'real rest' really feels vs. 2-3 week stoppages.

 

Not sure why people think they are smarter than the scientists of ASMI. Other activities also generally don't have that high of an impact than throwing. Both ASMI and the premier conditioning expert Eric cressey suggest taking off time from all throwing. I know ASMI might be conservative but cressey actually works with many pro pitchers.

 

http://www.ericcressey.com/bas...-throwing-programs-1

 

Not sure if "gut feel" is better than the opinion of those guys.

 

Eric is our older son's post-TJ trainer. By all accounts from our son he really knows what he is doing. I'd listen to him if I were a parent of a HS player. 

You know how people are.  They tend not to believe things that they don't want to hear. Even when the evidence is shoved in their faces, they have a tendency to go with their guts and to discredit the evidence and the sources of the evidence if its telling them things that they don't really want to hear.  People also tend to think that it happens to somebody else, not them or their kid.  Plus they rationalize and rationalize until things hit the breaking point, at which point you would think they can't rationalize any more.  But they often do -- attributing the bad outcome to bad luck or chance, when they were really cruising for a bruising all along.   Part of the problem in baseball is the ever escalating arms race -- the ever more competitive chase for that elusive scholarship or roster spot.  People seem to believe that they can't afford to let their player fall behind.

 

There was an interesting exchange in the comments to the Cressey post:

I think that you missed my point. There are many great college camps that provide A+ instruction.  There are a great many showcase events out there as well. 

The problem is trying to get in as much as one can year after year, as stated parents feel if they miss something there player might not get that scholarship.

There is a time and a place for everything. My opinion is that youth players don't need to play year round because in HS and college there isn't always about shutting down completely.  

This article is about using common sense.

There is a significant risk to pitching, why would one not minimize the risk and follow advice given by professionals?

+1

I'd venture to say that very few high school baseball players have done significant damage to their bodies by attending a college camp.

 

But I do believe that way too many 10-16-year-olds have been injured by participating in tournaments when they should be resting and healing.

Interesting idea (that will never be put into practice) on espn.com today, with am emphasis on "throwing fewer pitches when fatigued": www.espn.go.com/blog/sweetspot...e-future-of-baseball

 

there are also still many People buying into the "pitchers break down because they are babied" theory. a popular saying is "pitchers pitch too much and don't throw enough" which makes some sense but I think ASMI found out that other Max velocity/distance throwing is just as stressfull and not only pitches should be monitored but also Overall throwing workload. so if you take 4 months off from pitching but do max effort Long toss instead the stress is almost as big as if you never stopped pitching.

Here's the problem, though. ASMI also found that there was no correlation between throwing a curve and increased risk of injury. They also did a study showing that long toss is useless for building pitching arms at best and, at worst, might be harmful. How many people will still swear by long toss while treating ASMI recommendations on pitch counts and the dreadful radar gun as gospel?

Dom, do you long toss?

I think everyone should pay close attention to what the experts have to say.

 

Here is the biggest issue as far as I'm concerned.  We have been fortunate to be able to see many of the best Major League pitchers while they were still very young.  Many of those pitchers did not take a lot of time off.  Many swear by long toss.  Many, if not all, threw to the radar gun.  And yes, some of them have had TJ surgery.

 

The thing everyone seems to overlook is the risk vs. reward that is involved.  How do you get better at most things.  Is it by doing that skill less or doing it more? What is too much and what is not enough?  How much risk is involved in being one of the best?

 

Bottom line... It is much easier to stay healthy than it is to be one of the best.

 

All that said, there are risks and there is stupidity.  Some of the pitch counts, lack of recovery time, and other abusive usage is extremely dangerous and just plain ignorant.  Because of that I believe guidelines are necessary.  That is why we believe in the PitchSmart initiative. People know that every pitcher is different.  So the same guide lines for everyone seems wrong.   The reason these guide lines are important is to protect young pitchers from the stupidity of others.  Every pitcher has a danger zone.

 

I believe in the theory that every pitcher has only so many bullets. Problem is, that bullet count isn't the same for every pitcher.  Nolan Ryan had more bullets than everyone else.

My problem is that people pick and choose their information selectively. Take long toss and pitch counts, for instance. Too many people tout pitch count limits and how careful they are about them. However, their kids/students are out throwing long toss 45 minutes a day, four days a week and they somehow think these throws are separate from any injury risk associated with over pitching. Would these same coaches put their kid on the mound to throw the same number of extra pitches at full intensity in a bullpen session four times a week? Probably not. They somehow don't associate the two. It's necessary to assimilate all of the information in relation one piece to the others. Most don't do that. They also tend not to be able to separate information from the same source. For example, Dr. Andrews, though quite cautious, has enough expertise to adequately make pitch count recommendations. However, there is nothing in his field of expertise that makes him any more qualified to speak to the effect radar guns have on injury rates than I do. In fact, because I use a radar gun as a training tool, I'm probably MORE qualified.  

I am not saying the guys at ASMI are wrong but the argument that they are correct because they are scientists is kind weak. Science is never ending, it should be self correcting and it often is skewed due to personal desires of what they believe...reference the global warming scandals for how impartial scientists can be!

 

At the end of the day do your own research, make your own choices and own the results.  

While my son is only 14 a big issue I have seen is all the other throwing that occurs over a weekend tournament.  Leading up to this point all rosters have been 12 or less players.  Pitchers are used off on throughout tournaments.  Most/all pitchers are also position players.  Many times a kid will throw 80 pitches game one on saturday.  Lets not forget game one pregame warmups.  Than bull pen than inning warm up pitches.  Saturday game 2 that same player goes throw pregame warm ups.  Live game throws.  preinning throws.  Than again sunday for up to 3 games.  Many teams pregame throwing includes a mini longtoss aspect.  Over a 5 game weekend this kid has thrown 80 live pitches plus plus plus plus plus.  This is where I see issues of over use.  

On a side note, I don't think TJ is a huge risk.  Even if you blow out your arm it doesn't have a huge impact on a persons quality of life.  

 

Regarding 18u and below, it seems the "experts" need to expand beyond just pitching.  A 12U who throws 80plus pitches on saturday will play the rest of the weekend with a fatigued arm and is at risk.   

Where you see this the most is with the lower level travel teams. The higher level clubs have enough pitching to avoid this trap. Heck, often the problem on those teams can be getting enough mound time. With lower level teams, they often don't have more than one stud pitcher (if that) and they ride him. With bigger organizations, it's just a matter of replacing one stud with the next one in line. This also used to be a problem with rec ball. I can recall, in the days before any limits, LL teams that would use only one pitcher an entire season.

In my example, this pitcher only pitched in one game for the weekend well with in recommeded pitch limits.  Yet with the balance of the weekend play, he is at greater risk for injury due to overuse because of position play.  

Of course ASMI has Not everything right and there are guys who criticise them ( Not just marshall guys). Some of the warnings will prove to be wrong. However I warn from the conclusion that if science facts tend to be debunked over time that it is just as good to just take a gut feel guess and assume that this is just as good as science. 

 

Many people tend tend to believe what they want. For example they happily buy into studies that say long distance running is bad for pitchers ( would not disagree it is not harmful but it is not really specific) but if it comes to something else they don't like they reject it. You can of course say do your own research and find out yourself but in reality 99 % of all coaches are not qualified to do such research. and no practical experience is not science. I mean a dad feels good abut his own research if his son improves from 67 to 73 at age 13 with a healthy arm. He also feels smart if his kid goes from 73 to 78 at 14 or 78 to 83 at 15 but if he goes to tj surgery at 16 he does not know what happened. injuries come suddenly and your own conclusions always work- until they don't.

 

what I would advice is not to take everything ASMI says for face value but to err on the conservative side and that is what asmi is doing when they are not sure. If you find a red berry and you don't know what it is don't eat it.

 

regarding long toss I do it and I don't think it is bad. I know ASMI said it is more stressful than pitching but since I'm a first baseman mostly my arm can take it. In reality long toss is probably not hurting your arm much more. However what it does is that long toss for max effort is just as taxing on the arm as pitching is. Max effort throwing is max effort throwing so the equation long toss = healthy arm and pitching = bad is probably wrong. Long toss is a great excercise but like all max effort throwing it is stressful. Stress is good because it means adaptation but too much does no good.

 

what is missing is imo to track all max effort throwing no matter if it is pitching in games, bullpen sessions, long toss or position throwing. That is hardly possible in reality but I believe that this could be a key thing to the injuries to monitor all throwing then make a plan.

 

im not saying kids should not throw but it needs to be dosed.

I was only taking issue with your statement: "Not sure why people think they are smarter than the scientists of ASMI." This seemed to indicate that anyone ignoring ASMI advice took that attitude. I wanted to apply that to pitching advice from ASMI concerning their conclusions on long toss. However, I think it was more specific to pitchers. I don't think they would caution against long toss for fielders. It's more specific to what they do.