Tossed

You seem kind of obsessed with umpires these days...  Are you saying bad umps (and resulting jokes) are part of the game?  or that they are the reason we should be going to robo-umps?

Poor umpiring is a huge problem at every level of baseball. I think that @RJM is just calling attention to it. Besides the obvious issue of making bad calls, umpires in general seem to have lost any semblance of a sense of humor. I almost got thrown out of our last game this year for making a joke. And it was a good joke. Here was the scene. Our team was in the 1B dugout and we were hitting. We had a runner on 1B and the P made a pickoff attempt. Our runner’s hand hit the 1B bag a full second before the first baseman applied the tag. The 1B umpire was in good position to make the call, no more than 10’ away from the play. But he called him out. Our dugout objected loudly - to no avail. The next inning the same umpire, from the same place on the field stopped play to have a baseball (that had somehow wedged in between 2 pads at a height of 6’) removed from the backstop padding. Before I could think I said “You can see a baseball wedged in the backstop from 100’ away but you can’t see a play that occurs right in front of your face?!?” Got off with a warning but he didn’t even laugh. Our dugout did though!

I think we are going to be facing a huge ump shortage soon. A lot of the better umps I talk to have had it with parents (travel, HS, and college). None of them have said anything about players and coaches, just parents/fans. There are always some pretty terrible umps, but some of the good ones are getting chased off as well. IMO, this is an issue for the AD's to handle, but they don't. I hardly ever see AD's at college games.

@anotherparent posted:

You seem kind of obsessed with umpires these days...  Are you saying bad umps (and resulting jokes) are part of the game?  or that they are the reason we should be going to robo-umps?

No obsession. The robo umpire story and Hernandez retiring are newsworthy. It would be great if CB Buckner is next. The Polk story was in my Facebook feed today. It’s a funny story.

@TerribleBPthrower posted:

I think we are going to be facing a huge ump shortage soon. A lot of the better umps I talk to have had it with parents (travel, HS, and college). None of them have said anything about players and coaches, just parents/fans. There are always some pretty terrible umps, but some of the good ones are getting chased off as well. IMO, this is an issue for the AD's to handle, but they don't. I hardly ever see AD's at college games.

This umpiring issue with parents has been going on for a while. My kids are in their 30s now. They were hired to officiate preteen sports when they were in high school. It’s the only thing I ever allowed them to quit. The coach’s and parent’s behavior was horrible.

As an adult I tuned out the adult behavior when I did preteen games. I didn’t realize how bad it was until my kids came home with stories. I attended and watched. I told them they didn’t need to take the abuse. My daughter dealt with a male coach chest bumping her across the field. My son got followed to his car by a threatening parent.

The best comeback from an umpire directed at a parent/fan was at a USSSA tournament.

The parent yelled out, “Looks like a strike from here, Blue.”

The umpire fired back, “:That’s why they make me stand behind the catcher.”

@RJM posted:

This umpiring issue with parents has been going on for a while. My kids are in their 30s now. They were hired to officiate preteen sports when they were in high school. It’s the only thing I ever allowed them to quit. The coach’s and parent’s behavior was horrible.

As an adult I tuned out the adult behavior when I did preteen games. I didn’t realize how bad it was until my kids came home with stories. I attended and watched. I told them they didn’t need to take the abuse. My daughter dealt with a male coach chest bumping her across the field. My son got followed to his car by a threatening parent.

I’ve seen several parents follow the umps to the parking lot, threatening them and trying to get them to fight. I hadn’t seen it until a few years ago. No idea what college umps are paid, but HS guys usually get $90/game where I live. It just isn’t worth it to most of them

We used to use HS kids to ump our coach pitch and minors games. If a parent/coach yelled at one of them we suspended them until they umped 3 majors/minors games… from behind the plate. A second infraction resulted in a season long ban.

Please let the umpires know how perfect you are before criticizing them - it may help your situation.

Seriously though - as in any profession there are good ones and bad ones... there are grumps and jokesters...  read the room / field and handle yourself with class / professionalism.

Recently I had a coach of the team on the losing end of a 5-15 6 inning playoff game in which his team had a 4-0 lead thru 3 innings tell the umpiring crew as they left the field that we stole the game from the kids. My reaction is to walk away and shake my head, others may decide to stick around and have some sort of comeback - what's the purpose of that?

I've had jovial coaches at plate conferences decide to complain about balls & strikes on the first pitch of the game on a borderline pitch that their catcher reached to grab and lost his balance, falling over. I had a coach once tell me it couldn't be interference when his batter-runner ran out of the baseline into the pitcher attempting to catch his high foul ball. I've seen coaches send runners from the 3rd on short OF fly balls... I've seen batters swing at pitches way over their hands and then look at one right down the middle and complain I don't know the strike zone. I've made mistakes and I can own them, I've also been right, but I'm not expounding upon that and blogging/tweeting about every right call that some parent / player / coach thought was wrong.  It's a game played by humans, still. Bring on robo-ump - I'm not sure that's the solution. If it were, then it'd be here. I agree with a commenter elsewhere - something isn't quite right / ready. Whether that is "us" or "history" is unclear. It may solve MLB's "problem", but certainly in the short term of our lives it won't be used in HS and below.

Yes, the umps have to put up with a lot; however, so do the players.  The more you advance, the louder the fans.  I don't see how we expect a 19-year-old pitcher to tune out the fans and keep his cool, and then pity the ump for being heckled and losing his cool. (Of course, addressing the ump off the field is a different matter.)  I think umpire pay should be more of an issue than fan insults.   

@JohnF posted:

Please let the umpires know how perfect you are before criticizing them - it may help your situation.

Seriously though - as in any profession there are good ones and bad ones... there are grumps and jokesters...  read the room / field and handle yourself with class / professionalism.

Recently I had a coach of the team on the losing end of a 5-15 6 inning playoff game in which his team had a 4-0 lead thru 3 innings tell the umpiring crew as they left the field that we stole the game from the kids. My reaction is to walk away and shake my head, others may decide to stick around and have some sort of comeback - what's the purpose of that?

I've had jovial coaches at plate conferences decide to complain about balls & strikes on the first pitch of the game on a borderline pitch that their catcher reached to grab and lost his balance, falling over. I had a coach once tell me it couldn't be interference when his batter-runner ran out of the baseline into the pitcher attempting to catch his high foul ball. I've seen coaches send runners from the 3rd on short OF fly balls... I've seen batters swing at pitches way over their hands and then look at one right down the middle and complain I don't know the strike zone. I've made mistakes and I can own them, I've also been right, but I'm not expounding upon that and blogging/tweeting about every right call that some parent / player / coach thought was wrong.  It's a game played by humans, still. Bring on robo-ump - I'm not sure that's the solution. If it were, then it'd be here. I agree with a commenter elsewhere - something isn't quite right / ready. Whether that is "us" or "history" is unclear. It may solve MLB's "problem", but certainly in the short term of our lives it won't be used in HS and below.

Great post. Bad calls are part of the game. Some umps are awful and should be filtered out, but overall I’ve found the higher you go the more consistent they become. Their strike zone might be a little different, but they are consistent. Besides, if robo umps are implemented, who would pitcher parents have to blame if their kid had a bad outing? I know I’d be in trouble!

JohnF, thanks for sticking with it.  Without umpires, there would be no baseball, especially, as you note, at the lower levels.  I seem to remember hearing that freshman and JV games in our area were sometimes cancelled due to lack of umpires.

@anotherparent posted:

JohnF, thanks for sticking with it.  Without umpires, there would be no baseball, especially, as you note, at the lower levels.  I seem to remember hearing that freshman and JV games in our area were sometimes cancelled due to lack of umpires.

The guy who runs the HS umps in our area lets the better umps pick their games far in advance. So guess what the schools with turd parents and coaches get....

A friend of mine has been umping HS games for 20+ years. He says nowadays he does more Freshman/JV games than Varsity because when it's only 1 ump for the game, it pays 1.5x the rate you get for Varsity with 2 umps. With that being the case in our area, a lot of the more experienced guys are choosing to ump the lower levels.

It's an imperfect system - make the best of it and be happy we have this in our lives (a post Memorial Day thought). My current area has V and JV, but I've also worked in areas w/ MS, F, JV, & V. The pay is per game and not set by the school - so regardless if you have the best team around or the worst - it's all the same although adjusted by probably $10-15 per level. The better teams typically have coaches who like to "stretch" the extent of the rules and umpire discretion, while the poorer teams tend to have coaches who don't know the rules as well or know the "sandlot" rules. "Good" and "active" assignors will endeavour to make sure the umpires assigned to a better game can handle the teams, but sometimes it doesn't work out that way. Even the best guys have off nights. Some areas do allow self assign for sub-varsity.

In our area you're "allowed" to start (or finish) sub-varsity with 1 umpire and yes you get more money if completely alone, but pay isn't everything for everyone. Games are not timed - so 90 minutes or 3+ hours and you have to be there 30-60 mins before game time - so if you think in terms of hourly, you're not making much if you also throw in travel...  For those of us with day jobs too - it's not always easy to "slip out" at 230P for the 4P game nor is it pleasant to start that 7P game 30 minutes late because JV ran over or due to weather.  Getting home around midnight and starting my work day by 7A is not something I like to do every night.  But, I cannot complain that much because it's a choice I made.

I feel for those of you going (and paying!) to PG, USSSA, AAU, etc. where it's even harder to find umpires and many times you're getting someone doing 4+ games a day. Think about that on championship Sunday in those warmer and more humid climates...

Only time I ever got thrown out was when I was coaching my oldest in a 14U tournament back in 2009/10.

It was a windy day in Waco TX.  Smaller kid on the mound was getting buffeted around by the wind pretty good while he was coming set in the stretch.  Picked one of our kids off on a clear balk that was not called.

Between innings I ask the ump to watch the balks.

Next inning he's still not coming set and rocking back and forth.  I ask the ump again..............he says "it's windy out here, he's doing the best he can".

I ask my trusty assitant for the rule book.  After the next pitch I call time and politely ask the ump to show me the "windy" clause in the rule book.

Home plate ump laughed, not so much for the base ump.  I got to watch the rest of the game from the OF.

I wonder whether robo-umps at the higher levels would make people even more dissatisfied at lower levels.

When my oldest son was in 11-12U rec ball, in the end-of-season tournament, bottom 7th, 2 outs, our team down by 1 run.  A kid who had never hit a home run before hit it way over the fence.  An undisputed home run.  He races round the bases, wild cheering ensues.  The opposing coach pops out of the dugout and says that he did not touch second base.  The umpire (a teenager with a reputation for bad calls) decides to agree with that coach and calls him out, game over.

My husband had video that showed that he did indeed touch 2nd base.  But, there was no video replay in rec ball.

Of course, we've never forgotten it.

@anotherparent posted:

I wonder whether robo-umps at the higher levels would make people even more dissatisfied at lower levels.

When my oldest son was in 11-12U rec ball, in the end-of-season tournament, bottom 7th, 2 outs, our team down by 1 run.  A kid who had never hit a home run before hit it way over the fence.  An undisputed home run.  He races round the bases, wild cheering ensues.  The opposing coach pops out of the dugout and says that he did not touch second base.  The umpire (a teenager with a reputation for bad calls) decides to agree with that coach and calls him out, game over.

My husband had video that showed that he did indeed touch 2nd base.  But, there was no video replay in rec ball.

Of course, we've never forgotten it.

There is a very successful HS coach in our area that has turned “he missed third base” into a play that his team practices and uses in games. In a close game at home (where his team is in the 3B dugout) if the other team scores a critical run (late in the game), this coach charges out of the dugout screaming & pointing at 3B. The SS & third baseman do the same thing. All players in the dugout yell too. So do the fans although I don’t think they are in on it. But it’s a sensory overload for the umpires and it’s amazing how often they get railroaded into making a bad call. Personally I think it’s despicable.

When I coached at the lower levels of baseball, softball and basketball I reminded parents the game officials are starting out and learning just like the kids. Don’t expect them to be much better than the players.

My kids are five years apart in age. They covered eight years of high school. Some of the umpires and refs my daughter had in kiddie rec sports were high school umpires and refs by the time my son finished high school.

Imo the umpiring "problem" is blown way out of proportion. Yes, umpires like hernandez should not calling games as long as they do but 90% of the mlb umps are great, they get 90% of the calls right and 90% of their "misses" are by less than two inches.

It shouldn't happen but honestly it is a zero sum game, sometimes it will hit my team and sometimes the opponent, in the end it doesn't matter much for the viewers experience.

I still would prefer the robo ump but it doesn't bother me when there is an occasional missed call

Ummm. . .  if you are a pitcher, two inches is the whole point.

Is it worse to have an ump with a tight zone or a more open zone? I saw an ump (college) twice this year on Friday nights who had a super tight zone. Both games (both teams throwing aces) ended in 12-10 type scores. I hate seeing hitters rung up on balls on the batter box chalk, but I also hate seeing a pitcher that has good command walk a bunch of kids on borderline pitches.

Go look up the diameter of a baseball to gain perspective...

You're taught at the lower levels to allow up to a ball off the plate; otherwise, the game could be 4 hours.

A good MLB pitcher has *a lot* of movement on a ball - imagine what an excellent MLB pitcher has! A robo-ump could theoretically call a strike on a seam nicking the corner of an otherwise unhitable pitch just as much as it could call a strike on an eephus pitch (also known to be unhitable unless you're talking Softball beer league with the guys).

Gain some perspective and become involved. I hear there's a shortage of officials looking for baseball knowledgeable purists.

@RHP_Parent posted:

Ummm. . .  if you are a pitcher, two inches is the whole point.

It is but I see it statistically. Statcast calls it the shadow zone, basically from 2 inches in to 2 inches out every pitch has a 50/50 chance.

The human eye can't see it more precisely, if you want it more distinctly you need robo ump.

The really bad calls of 3+ inches missed probably could be reduced when there would be a promotion and relegation system for umpires but the shadow zone will always be a 50/50 thing with the human eye

@TerribleBPthrower posted:

Is it worse to have an ump with a tight zone or a more open zone? I saw an ump (college) twice this year on Friday nights who had a super tight zone. Both games (both teams throwing aces) ended in 12-10 type scores. I hate seeing hitters rung up on balls on the batter box chalk, but I also hate seeing a pitcher that has good command walk a bunch of kids on borderline pitches.

I prefer a wider zone, especially at the youth level but the worst thing is really bad misses. Giving one ball extra is fine but calls in the other batters box really suck because as a hitter you can't adjust to that, you can't swing there and have success.

I’ve always cut the blues some slack. It’s a job that if you do perfectly, you’re unnoticed, and if you’re 98% correct (5 bad strike zone calls per game) and you’re the spawn of the devil (especially if the calls are not evenly distributed).

I stopped having catches with my son about junior HS year (I’ve never caught him off a mound or in a squat – that’s at least a couple levels of parental intensity beyond me). The last time we tossed was when he asked me to warm him up for some infield drills with his hitting instructor. I took one in the heel of the glove that put me in a wrist splint for a couple weeks. Even when he’s throwing relaxed, the ball seems to leave his hand a one speed and then accelerate mid flight (clearly an optical illusion) and then there’s always a lot of arm side run. The movement is not always the same, and I was pretty sure I’d eventually take one off the grill and need some substantial dental work (so no more of that).

What wasn’t intuitive for me (being a casual baseball fan) IMO was what makes great hitters and pitcher at the highest level. Of course, there’s the mental/discipline and physical aspects, but from my viewpoint the biggest factor is the following:

Pitchers must have at least one pitch that behaves significantly differently (defies standard physics) than their peer group average (velocity matters, but IMO it matters the least). If somebody tosses you the car keys, you’re unconsciously doing the physics (velocity, trajectory and gravitational effect), projecting the future state and hopefully arriving on time. Pitching at the highest levels requires “stuff” that doesn’t look like everyone else’s “stuff” (different physics) and makes it difficult for the hitter to arrive on time.

If you don’t think your mind projects future states without your awareness, consider A and B are the same color, but your mind is projecting the impact of the pattern and implied shade:

Screen clip of "B" showing the actual color

Great hitters are the best at not just seeing the future state, but at being able to quickly adjust to the new physical realities based on the individual pitcher’s “stuff” and reapplying the new rules of physics to their bat path. No clue on if this happens in the background, like catching car keys, or it’s a conscious adjustment? This is why I believe/agree that hitting MLB pitching is the hardest thing to achieve consistently in sports.

That was a really long circuitous path to say, go out there and have a catch with an MLB pitcher while he throws his game stuff and doesn’t tell you what’s coming, and see how well you project the future. I’m looking forward to the correctness of the robot strike zone, but I think we’ll lose a bit of the game’s soul in the process. In the meantime, I’m going to cut the blues some slack, as long as they’re not squeezing my kid…