Towel Drills -Pros and Cons?

I'm no a real pitching coach, allthough I did pitch in college. We you the towel drill to help a pitch get extension. I helps you learn to release the ball as far out infront of you as you can. Extend towards home plate on release. I don't see how it could be detrimental.

quote:

Originally posted by Coach Curt:
I'm no a real pitching coach, allthough I did pitch in college. We you the towel drill to help a pitch get extension. I helps you learn to release the ball as far out infront of you as you can. Extend towards home plate on release. I don't see how it could be detrimental.

WOW, was I drinking when I wrote this, sorry about all the typo's

We use the towel drill to help with extention and to also creat some drag to build arm strenght. Our guys do 10-20 reps after throwing a bull pen. Can cause some strain on the elbow if not done right so be careful.

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a father who referred to towel drills as "absolutely useless and potentially detrimental"

And this Dad voted correctly in the election, yet his party lost!

You may want to check out 'The Freak's' Dad's approach when teaching his son. Pick up the dollar bill.

Here is an opinion on why the towel drill does not make sense:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v...YgUk&feature=related

Kind of like telling a golfer to go to the range and practice taking a deeper divot to get better extension. But wait.... when its time to hit the shot in a match, go back to the regular divot and correct follow through.

If you think about it, the towell drill may not be very effective. Even more so if there is a possibility of elbow problems when doing this drill incorrectly. The ball weighs only 5 oz, why not just work with the ball in your hand and throw it so you program a natural release point into memory?

quote:

Originally posted by JJMJ:
Here is an opinion on why the towel drill does not make sense:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v...YgUk&feature=related

Kind of like telling a golfer to go to the range and practice taking a deeper divot to get better extension. But wait.... when its time to hit the shot in a match, go back to the regular divot and correct follow through.

If you think about it, the towell drill may not be very effective. Even more so if there is a possibility of elbow problems when doing this drill incorrectly. The ball weighs only 5 oz, why not just work with the ball in your hand and throw it so you program a natural release point into memory?

What if the golfer is topping the ball, or just picking it of the top of the surface, getting extension and taking a divot would increase his shot performance, just like a kid who is not extending enough, the towel drill can teach him to extend more and find a better release point. The later release point will allow him to throw harder without the ball sail high out of the strike zone, It will also cause him to have a later break on his breaking balls. This really helped me develope a late breaking slider when I was in college.

If you do any drill incorrectly, then in all likelihood when it comes time to do the motion for real your "muscle memory" will do it wrong. That inevitably could lead to over corrections that lead to injuries. My son watched that video and laughed at how Mills demonstrated the incorrect way to do the drill. Buy a $2 towel or a $200 Mills' video analysis - hmm... who's selling what?

So do we take the "T" away from hitters because after all what pitcher always throws the ball down the middle, waist high, and just sitting there for the hitter to just whack.

You can do the video analysis yourself on this drill (even when done correctly?) and compare it to an actual ball release position video of your son, or player. You can easily see the difference on slow motion, but not with the naked eye.

Pitching is a skill, requiring throwing a ball downhill at a target with precision and control. Why you would want to practice a motion that is not exactly like the one you need to repeat under pressure in a game is beyond me.

As far as the hitting off of a tee comment - put the tee just far enough in front so you hit the ball off the end of the bat and practice that so you can do it real well. Then when its time to hit in the game, go back to your regular swing.

And FYI - Dick Mills has tons of free information on his website, all you have to do is read and watch his sample videos and you can learn how to analyze video without buying anything from him - he even says this.

I am not pushing any agenda here at all, just trying to point out some information that could be usefull to others. Mills is really just promoting pitching more, doing less drills, and videotaping while pitching to help see the faults so you can make the adjustments.

From Dick Mills:

"This is all based on common scientific principles that are followed much more regularly in other sports but not baseball.

One such sports science principle is the Principle of Specificity that simple states that practice activities must be just like game competition. For pitchers, that means any variation from mound pitching or game speed pitching, will not help that pitcher improve his pitching. He will get better at the practice activity such as long toss or doing towel drills but those practice activities will not help his pitching when he gets into a game and has to face hitters. In fact, it will detract from him improving his mechanics.

The pitcher ends up with two different sets of mechanics - one he uses in practice and one he must use in a game. How will he get more skilled for game pitching by practicing different skills during practice?

The Principle of Neuromuscular Patterning says that even slight orientations in the speed of execution of the "same" skill will produce a totally different mechanical result. For example, doing pitching drills at less than game speed or game intensity is not beneficial since the slower speed of movement while doing the drill is interpreted by the body and mind as a completely different skill.

This is why pitchers should never throw bullpens at less than game intensity or should never slow down their delivery to work on ball control because essentially this will reduce velocity potential. When the pitcher gets into the game and has to now throw a fastball, the control he worked on at slower speeds will not help him. If pitchers need to improve control they need to do more target practice to the same location over and over throwing many more pitches than is previously believed by coaches.

Based on the current sports science research do you really want pitchers to get good at practice activities that they are not able to use to help them improve? Of course not.

Do you want pitchers that are good at long distance throwing or doing towel drills or do you want pitchers who can learn to throw downhill at a specific distance in order to get hitters out. No pitcher will be rewarded for having great towel drill mechanics or long distance throwing mechanics.

Pitchers get better only by doing a lot of pitching while being videotaped so the pitcher and the instructor or parent can see improvements or faults. That is the feedback needed for improvement.

If you waste time on pitching drills, long toss, weighted balls or lifting weights you will lose velocity and the opportunity to reach your full velocity potential. It is all about mechanics and of course being functionally fit to pitch. It is not about strength. "

Every MiLB and MLB pitcher I have know uses the towel drill.
They also laugh at Dick Mills.

Perhaps you missed the subtle point I was making, although I think your response certainly demonstrated it.

Drills are one part of the overall equation. You cannot rely solely on a single drill and there's a lot of components to make a pitcher or an athlete successful. For some the towel drill works to help get them to do a specific activity - to think a bit differently and then attempt to put it into practice when they are working with the "real thing".

It's similar to a batter with a "T" - a point you made perfectly. If you execute the drill properly and use the drill in order to make yourself think about a real game situation, then it can make you more successful. By just using the "T" though doesn't mean you'll be successful.

Not sure if I'm reading too much into what you're saying, but I find it ironic that for a batter you state: "Then when its time to hit in the game, go back to your regular swing.", while for a pitcher you state: "Why you would want to practice a motion that is not exactly like the one you need to repeat under pressure in a game is beyond me.". Seems to me you are indicating a batter can more easily go from drills to the real thing. I guess that's why you're more likely to be considered for the Hall of Fame if you're successful more than 30% of the time as a batter. It's not any less difficult to hit a ball than it is to throw one. Each requires it's own skill and requires drills in order to make you successful.

I disagree with most of what Dick Mills says. Yes, pitching is the best way to practice, but you can only throw so many pitches a day, dills allow you to work on other skills, balance and mechanics, which in turn can help you improve.

quote:

Originally posted by JJMJ:
From Dick Mills:

"This is all based on common scientific principles that are followed much more regularly in other sports but not baseball.

One such sports science principle is the Principle of Specificity that simple states that practice activities must be just like game competition.

This is the biggest load of **** I have ever heard. Who's science? His of course, he calls it science so it must be so. There is not such thing as the "Principle of Specificity", he made it up and calls it "science". Every sport in the world uses cross training to improve on field performance.

I will say that not all of his stuff is BS, and he is correct on the use of video. The problem with him is that there is so much BS involved it is difficult to get to the good stuff he might have buried in the heap.

Could a moderator link this over to the same thread in pitching?

That is right on the money.
He uses BS to set himself apart from other. It is a marketing strategy.

Maybe it came across the wrong way, and maybe I missed your point. I would argue that hitting is more difficult than pitching, requiring excellent vision and hand-eye coordination. There are numerous drills for hitters that help with the hand-eye coordination,swing mechanics, etc., and there are also good drills for pitchers that help to correct mechanical flaws.

I just feel that the towel drill "could" program a flaw into your delivery and "could" bother your elbow. Video analysis shows it is not the actual motion your arm takes during and after ball release so why practice something and then have to think about an adjustment? Plus, if you have a good long stride to home, you probably do not have an extension problem to start with, yet you should still perform the drill?

Maybe its just me but what Mills is preaching is not rocket science, its more like common sense.

Of course he is marketing himself, but I doubt he would have the following he does without results.

quote:

Originally posted by BobbleheadDoll:
That is right on the money.
He uses BS to set himself apart from other. It is a marketing strategy.

This is exactly what my first thought was when I started looking into it. Simple product differentiation. But what do I know?

this is a pretty good pitching book, and it's by a home grown coach as well. he's a very interesting guy to talk with, pretty good idea's. decent results too.

http://pitchingprofessor.com/

20dad turned me onto this book about a year ago. I was thoroughly impressed with its content. I was lucky enough to take my son to a 2hr clinic of his this past spring. Best $35 I have spent to date too (not counting the gas for an hour plus ride up and back to Plymouth NH..lol)! Son got a lot out of the short time spent with Bagonzi. I wish he were more active clinic wise nowadays as I'd love to have my son spend some more time with him and my son would love to do so again, even if it is reinforcement through the same clinic this spring. Jeff Locke who is now in the Pirates organization worked with him and is the 12 yr old referenced in the book actually.

High Speed w/Towel:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7d16fg1JsUA

Comparison High Speed w/Ball:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=32SFWCVu9k8


Above are two videos from this past summer that we took when we were researching the towel drill. For those interested, the player in this video is Adam Perkins who is the career wins leader at URI. We had him doing different throwing motions/drills to see what kind of variations might occur. The reference point for getting "extension" is the fence, which he was trying to hit with the towel. (Often you will see a pitcher using a chair/bench or pitchers working in pairs with one partner using the towel and one holding a glove out.)

The opinion that this drill is useless, to me, is all relative. Perhaps a pitcher does need to change their release point. Maybe doing the drill helps them focus on a certain aspect of their delivery. Different hitters do different drills to get mentally prepared, so I don't see how this is different. If there was one way to do things, this message board would be awfully boring.

As for being detrimental, I can't see how it is - at least from a injury prevention standpoint. A towel does not weigh a lot and I can't imagine the wind resistance or finishing whip would create forces on the shoulder or elbow greater than a 5 oz baseball ball would. If anybody can find hard science research to either confirm and disprove this, I'd be very interested to know. (If it is putting equal stress on the body, why not just throw?)

If the towel is significantly lighter, I could potentially be used as part of an overload-underload program, but the only reasoning I have heard is the extension argument.

North common field never looked so drab!!

Interesting videos!!

The benefits of the towel drill is evident in your videos. Nice extension and finish to the arm action. He also get max thrust when he is out over his stride leg thigh. Also doesn't lock his throwing arm elbow after release.

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Originally posted by redsox8191:
North common field never looked so drab!!

Interesting videos!!

The high speed video requires tons of light and consequently sucks the color out. The field was actually in decent shape over the summer.

What is max thrust? I asked Google but I found nothing worthwhile.

The description of north common field was a tad tongue in cheek. Between son's Middle School (home field) and Babe ruth I must have watched 15 plus games there last year. Actually it is one of the best fields for being able to sit behind home plate and have a nearly unobstructed view of home plate (other then the ump and catcher of course) without being up against the fence. Son loved that mound, had a lot of his best performances on that mound.

I just wish they had the money to install the lights that they won through Babe ruth, but unfortuately there is no money in the budget to install them at least as of last year.

That is when you are out over the stride thigh and the arm drives forward just before release driving the ball forward on a downward plane.
This Guy also has good alignment as far as I can tell. That is when the landing foot lands in a straight line from the instep of the post foot directly to the plate. Not off to either side.
The only thing is that his stride could be a little longer. Wouldn't mess with it because he looks comfortable with good balance.

Those are very informative videos. Thanks for posting them.

In your opinion, without the use of the high speed camera, could the naked eye confirm for a coach that their players were using good mechanics? Or are they just guessing about that?

quote:

Originally posted by BobbleheadDoll:
That is when you are out over the stride thigh and the arm drives forward just before release driving the ball forward on a downward plane.

Can you be more specific about what "you" is when "you are out over the stride thight..." Just trying to get the picture in my head right.

quote:

Originally posted by JJMJ:
Those are very informative videos. Thanks for posting them.

In your opinion, without the use of the high speed camera, could the naked eye confirm for a coach that their players were using good mechanics? Or are they just guessing about that?

You're welcome for the videos. I'll post clips as much as possible and will create them for specific topics if requested!

Do good coaches need video to see mechanics? No. Good coaches will be watching very specific movements and will have the knowledge to know good from bad. What video can provide a coach or instructor is more information. The higher the speed of the video, the more information they will have to work with. Typical camcorders you get at Best Buy record at 29.97 frames per second (fps). Video systems like Dartfish or Sports Motion are typically 60 fps. The videos I posted are 300 fps. I've found 300 to be more than enough. My camera goes to 600 fps and 1200 fps, but it just gets to be unnecessary. (With hitters, the ball is only on the bat for 1 frame at 600 fps.)

While a coach doesn't need to use video for them to see the mechanics, it will likely be a huge help in communicating their knowledge to the athletes. Over 90% of the athletes I work with say, "That's what I look like?" after seeing themselves on video for the first time. If you don't know what you're doing, how can you improve it??? Break out your home camcorder or even use a cell phone that records video to at least get a baseline!

One can only hope a coach/instructor isn't guessing on mechanics. If you suspect they are, I would strongly recommend asking lots of questions - specific questions. If you are paying for instruction or to be on a team, your coach/instructor should be able to tell you specifically what they are looking at, when and why they are looking at it, and how they plan to improve the skill short-term and long-term. (Some coaches might cry foul or have a bruised ego if you start asking questions, but if they effectively communicate why an adjustment should be made, questions won't come up in the first place. If this is a paid situation, is your money well spent?)

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when you are out over the stride thigh

If you look at the video there is a point where the pitchers chest is out over the stride leg thigh. Note that the arm is at 90 degrees from the ground, chest is at 45 degrees, post foot is still in contact with ground just before lifting off and the shoulders are squared to the plate. Also note that his elbows are shoulder high and that when he tucks his glove he stays up near the armpit. All good mechanics.
I always used a video camera to analyze pitchers.

Jumping in late here with some random comments.

Tom House is the one credited with having invented the towel drill. But most of what you see people teaching/practicing with the towel drill (extension, snapping down, etc.) is not what House teaches. While House does believe in a release point that is out in front, he doesn't pursue it by practicing "extension" using the towel drill. House uses the towel drill to teach total body mechanics. If you do things properly (i.e. no lunging, etc.) then the only way to hit the target with the towel is to "put it all together". In other words, you've got to maintain good balance and posture, you've got to manage the glove side to allow yourself to stay closed and rotate late, and you've got to generate good momentum. Release point happens as a result of all of these things. Really, trying to "extend" and change your release point just doesn't work when you're moving full speed and the arm is rotating at 7200 rpm.

I don't have my pitchers do the towel drill on a regular basis but I will use it when I have a pitcher that needs to work on making a particular mechanical adjustment. It lets them focus on their mechanics without being distracted by throwing a ball.

Dick Mills is a competitor of House and he loves to bash House - you see it on his website. (Very classless in my opinion.) Part of Mills' attack on the towel drill is really an attack on all of the incorrect teaches using the drill. But I'm sure he has no problem using it as a bash on House as well.

The pitcher in those videos posted above does not do things the way House would teach. That pitcher pulls his glove and is late in moving his center of gravity forward which goes against what House teaches. Also, the cross-over version of the towel drill is designed to promote early forward movement but the pitcher in the video uses a very deliberate up-down-out movement of the stride leg and doesn't really start forward until the leg starts out. These things would work to prevent one from hitting the target with the towel at the target distance. Seeing this does make me wonder what the focus was for that pitcher in doing the drill. It looks like he was focusing on balance point and planting on the front part of the stride foot.

Regarding using video vs. seeing things with the naked eye, knowledgeable coaches know what things to look for and that helps them see things. Experienced coaches have trained their eyes to see things. But there are still times - sometimes with certain pitchers - when video is still necessary. And I agree with the poster above that, while any video is better than none, 30 fps is lacking and 300 fps is good. (I also have the EX-F1 camera. )

Finally, as far as the towel drill programming a flaw into your delivery is concerned, the same can be said for any drill. Practice makes permanent!! Drill work should be supervised by a knowledgeable coach when possible.

Great post Roger! The EX-F1 is such a great tool.

Overall, the video was filmed to try to find any variations between using a towel and using a ball with a concentration injury prevention. Our concern was the end "whip" of the towel might create too much stress during deceleration. It was just an experiment - our little version of Sports Science or Mythbusters. I will try to find out what Adam was focusing on mentally with each specific repetition/drill variation.