Training Technique Is Questioned by Parents

Another example of high school coaching mopery.

Two summers ago son on a travel team, Head coach is a local college coach - assistant coach played for the SF Giants for 5 years. At the end of a practice team members took their turn at the plate and had balls thrown at them and they were hit. Not thrown hard, but throw with a purpose. Some boys were bruised some were not. It was done in the true manner of teaching. Not one parent complained not one player complained. All involed took at as a learning situation and were thankful for it. I see these boys play at several HS in our local area and have seen one or two take a ball in the side or back the correct way.

I use to run this same drill...called it the Willie Mays because he was the best I ever saw at avoiding getting hit...like in skiing he just use to sit down if the ball was thrown above the waist and turn away from it if it was at the waist or lower.

But I ran the drill with Whiffle balls.

Using a pitching machine with baseballs...pretty stupid if you ask me. . It is obvious this guy lacks common sense...someone needs to take this kid away from coaching before in ends up hurting someone.

quote:

Another example of high school coaching mopery.

Mopery? means exposing oneself to a blind person.

A bruise? How dreadful! They should quit sports and join the chess team. At least with a machine the pitches are controlled vs. trying to throw inside with consistency.

Try playing hockey and not get bruises.

sounds similar to a drill Adam Sandler used in the movie Happy Gilmore

And they apologize on top of it !!!!

Don't you get bruised when you get hit by a pitch in a game?

Hehehe...Happy Gilmore "Oh God that hurt a little bit but I'm allright..."

And just wait til you son gets to college!!!!!

Its part of the game . You better get use to knowing how to react to a ball comming at you. I see some players even at 18 or older still having fear of getting hit by a ball because they never learned how to react, it kills confidence and they never become good hitters.

How about a tennis ball!

TR,

We may agree on this one. I have told countless players & parents over the years...

"If your to scared to do things right or afraid to get hurt, do not play this game."

It is not fair to the player or the parent if the kid is literally too scared to move at the plate. The same for fielding, sometimes you need to rifle a grounder at player to let him know what its like. In a game, the opposition is not going to hit it easy at only "Johnny" because he gets scared.


I am making one base assumption here. I am assuming these are HS players and not LL kids that were in that article.

The idea of doing this drill ONLY with something that the players KNOW will not hurt them defeats the purpose of the drill.

The coach should have perhaps started with tennis balls, but at some point it would have to be done with a baseball. Not over & over again, but a couple of times to ensure that player understands. Also not every pitch has to actually hit them, but be there close enough to make them move or turn away to avoid.

The concept of this drill is not uncommon at all. I have seen many kids (especially in LL) get hit in the face or chest because they didnt react. At the HS level, you need to know how to protect yourself.

TR is right, you get hit by a pitch in a game, and it will leave a bruise, or break a bone.

I would suspect that Don Baylor and Craig Biggio aren't crying over this one!!

I'd be willing to bet that the same parents that complained woudl be the same ones suing the coach if their osn was injured by a pitched ball during a game "for not teaching him the proper method of avoidance"

Everyone knows that this drill should never produce wind currents above 2 mph, should use foam filled balls gently tossed and when you get to the game, make sure you don't keep score - don't want feelwhings to get hurt.
What ever happened to Willie Mays diving for the catch in the outfield, hitting a pole with his head, and when coming around from being knocked out was wondering if he had held onto the ball for the out?!?!
OK, reality check - they were only HS players, I would be concerned if they had multiple bruises and told the coach they had had enough and the coach said they had to go through more times, but let's remember they are not in T-ball either. One of my sons caught through most of his years and had plenty of seam marks all over his body from foul balls and plays at the plate. His additude would be - stop being a wuss.

Tim Robertson

It's gotta be taught somehow. When are we going to tennis balls in the game, because you know a baseball may hurt somebody??!??

I've been hit twice in the face with baseballs. I've also seen others get hit in the face with baseballs. Three of which incidents have come within the 13 months or so. Also, I was hit in 5th grade because I turned into the ball instead of away. This last one was a curve ball in a JV game that didnt break.

I don't know that our coach has ever taught us how to avoid pitches or whatever, but that's also something many people figure out on their own. I know I won't be turning toward the pitcher any more on pitches high and tight.

This is about reaction time and proper angles of deflection...not about bruising. Not about showing off how macho a kid is...that's for neanderthals who have never learned to teach techniques.

Neanderthals break the door down because they don't understand turning the door knob will accomplish the same thing...open the door.

Using the brain rather than muscles is more effective in teaching technique.TRhitssucksballs

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Sorry, I am having a hard time understanding the value of the pain in this "teaching" scenerio.

If the goal is to learn avoidance properly....it does not take pain to teach this skill, like any other mechanical skill it takes thousands of repititions.

If the goal is repititions...A tennis ball or a soft baseball offers significantly more (hundreds) of repititions....without injury cutting the drill short.

If the goal is quick reactions to speed...I would use tennis balls as as they are less likely to do serious harm to human beings at high speed that closely approximates pitching speds.

Heck, If the goal ACTUALLY is to learn to handle the infliction of pain why not use something more painful, that you are sure will hit square and cause more immediate an intense pain....a brick, steel rulers....



On second thought maybe we can take this method forward...

...car racing...High Speed Crash Drill...deliberately crashing cars at 200 MPH into walls to teach drivers not to fear high speed, or the wall...way too many drivers fear crashing...

...basketball...Undercut Drill...deliberately undercutting high leaping basketball players in practice so that they will learn to go to the hoop without fear...

...Football...Bell Ring Drill...a 2x4 to the helment to give you some understanding of what it would feel like to have your bell wrung so that you can get used to it...

Best of all...baseball...comebacker drill...If it's good for the Goose then it is good for the gander...have the pitcher pitch then have a batter toss and hit a ball at him. To teach avoiding the combacker. A very realistic drill now with metal bats. Any pitcher who refuses to do this drill is a wuss and turns in his uni...

I am really warming to this idea....

44
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I do not think the question of pain comes into this scenario-- the coach is trying to get the players to learn how to get out of the way of pitches--nobody teaches this anymore just as nobody teaches kids how to slide--whatever happened to sliding pits and the hours of work put into doing it properly?

If he keeps aiming the jugs machine at the kids he might end up in court like this moron.

Attorney: Mosley player’s family to file suit
By Jason Shoot
News Herald Writer
747-5069 / jshoot@pcnh.com

LYNN HAVEN - The attorney representing a former Mosley High School baseball player whose face allegedly was fractured by a line drive hit by his coach, said Monday his client’s family intends to file a lawsuit against the Bay County School Board next month.
In a notice of intent to sue addressed to Bay District Schools Superintendent James McCalister, attorney Chris Keith detailed an incident in February 2003 in which he accused Mosley head coach Doug Lee of batting a ball at a group of pitchers on the mound during practice.
The ball struck junior Brandon Schafer in the face, the notice said, resulting in "multiple" fractures of the orbital maxillary bone near his left eye.
Schafer’s injury "required facial reconstructive plastic surgery necessitating the implanting of two titanium plates and screws in the left side of his face," the notice said. "His injuries are permanent and severe."

The notice, which was dated Dec. 17, 2003, proposes the School Board settle a claim for $275,000. Keith said Monday that Florida law requires the notice, and added that his client could proceed with a lawsuit six months after the notice was issued. Keith said that is exactly what Schafer’s family intends to do.

"By my calculations, we can file a lawsuit next month," Keith said Monday, noting that Lee is not named as a defendant in the pending lawsuit but may be added in the future.
"To my knowledge, there has been no lawsuit filed," Bay District Schools attorney Franklin Harrison said Monday. "We certainly have not been served with any lawsuit."
Lee resigned as head coach of Mosley last Wednesday after guiding the Dolphins to a 137-52 record over six years and a Class 5A state championship in 2002. A former umpire in the Atlantic Coast Conference, Lee declared his intention to return to umpiring, possibly pursue a master’s degree in school administration and spend more time with his wife, Kim.
On Monday, Lee refused to comment on the accusations made in the notice of intent to sue, forwarding all media inquiries to Harrison. Lee did reiterate, however, that he resigned on his own accord.

"I stepped down the other day on my own," Lee said. "Not because of this lawsuit."
A school official said Monday that Mosley Principal Bill Husfelt is out of the office attending a seminar this week and unavailable for comment. Messages left at the home of Mosley Athletic Director Tim Jennings on Monday afternoon were not returned.
Schafer, an 18-year-old who graduated from Mosley on May 14, was able to compete on the school’s golf team last fall, but the notice said his injuries prevented him from returning to baseball.
The notice alleges that Schafer suffered fractures of the orbital maxillary bone near his left eye as a result of a baseball hit by Lee during a fielding drill on Feb. 4, 2003.

Mosley pitchers were gathered around the pitcher’s mound taking part in the drill, and the notice contends Lee was upset with another player for a below-average throw to home plate.
"In a fit of anger and rage," the notice read, "Mr. Lee threw up the ball he was holding in his hand, swung the fungo bat backwards with all of his force, and hit a line drive ball directly at the group of players standing on the pitcher’s mound. (The other player) saw the ball coming and quickly darted out of the way. Brandon, however, was not as lucky.

"… The impact knocked Brandon to the ground, and blood began to immediately pour from Brandon’s nose. Brandon laid bleeding on the ground for several minutes before Mr. Lee and other players were able to assist him to the clubhouse."

The notice said Schafer’s face was reconstructed using bone grafts, two titanium plates and several screws during a two-hour surgery one week after the incident.
"I don’t think there’s a question this is gross negligence," Keith said Monday. "We have a coach, who by all measures was very angry with his players for what he perceived to be a lack of effort on the students’ part and the players’ part. He became very angry … and anger got the best of him."

Keith said Monday that the settlement figure proposed in the notice was a procedural step and "not necessarily the damage we’re claiming in the case. … We just want what’s fair for Brandon. The kid has suffered serious, permanent injuries, and we want what’s fair to him."

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IF pain is NOT part of the scenerio then I see no justification for using hardballs.

Balls without hard centers or tennis balls are...

...relatively inexpensive,
...do not put the kids in danager
....avoid lawsuits
...can be thrown with velocity.

As a result repititions could be increased, skiil learned more quickly and effectively.

I suspect that this practice started in one of five scenerios, none of which is a justification for continuation of the practice:

- when there were fewer options for baseballs
- by coaches who don't understand the process of learning, or who understand how to teach and ended up frustrated like the in '04's article
- by sadistic coaches who just liked to inflict pain.
- by coaches obsessed with the "wuss" factor.
- by coaches who blindly follow old school.

44

Observer

What is your background in coaching baseball --you claim you are fan--but have you played/coached? At what level?

Coaching obviously is not rocket science. Background is irrevelent. I think most people understand the the game is mostly talent driven. Coaching provides additional motivation, some skill-set refinement, but is generally limited by the talent level. You ain't got the horses you won't win, regardless of coaching.

Turning a pitching machine on kids could be the dumbest move of the year.

I'm in charge of all use of force training for a large group of police officers. One of the basic tenents of training is not to injure those being trained. I do attempt to simulate real life conditions using a variety of scenarios and "props" In transfering this basic rule it would make sense to use tennis balls which is what I did with my son seven years ago when he first started playing baseball.TR probably threw rocks at his kids back in the "good old days"

Folks,

As I stated earlier, a combination of using tennis balls/tee balls to start and then moving up to a normal baseball is required.

As with all things in life, eventually you have to face the real world situation. If you only use a ball which is soft and the player knows cant hurt him, there will be some players who wont take the drill seriously. Those players would then enter a real game situation and not most likely not react appropriately.

Simple repetition does not guarantee proper reaction in a game situation. How many LL players have we all seen that hit the ball great off a pitching machine, but bail out with the front foot on every pitch when they face a kid pitching in a real game.

"I do not think the question of pain comes into this scenario-- the coach is trying to get the players to learn how to get out of the way of pitches--nobody teaches this anymore just as nobody teaches kids how to slide--whatever happened to sliding pits and the hours of work put into doing it properly?"

TR is right on point here, so many of the other fundamental skills are not taught to young players. Understanding how to recognize an inside pitch and properly avoid it is a necessary skill.

If you think this drill is some form of horrible torture, then for god's sake I hope you dont go watch early season fotball practices when they do fumble drills.

quote:

If you think this drill is some form of horrible torture, then for god's sake I hope you dont go watch early season fotball practices when they do fumble drills.

Don't they get $200 worth of pads and a $200 helmet? Weak analogy, imo

Dad04,

Yes they do,...and they are taught in those kinds of drills how to use that $200 helmet as a weapon. How many fumbles do you see that caused by "putting the helmet on the ball"
or by punching it out?

These skills are taught in drills that are not for the faint of heart to watch. I am not a football coach, but i have witnessed this drill at practices at many schools and all levels of football.

Those $220 pads do not encase your entire body. You dont have any of them on your hands. There are usually many players diving all at once to get the ball on this drill.

Ask any kid thats ever done it how many bruises he got from it. Guys helmets crashing in, last guys into the pile trying to hit you in a way to make you let go of the ball...etc.

This drill is run over and over as well. I have seen a lot of broken bones come out of that drill and other similar drills.

The point is simple. The coach was wrong to use only baseballs in repetitive fashion. He should have used tennis balls to ingrain the skill and then moved to baseballs to make sure the players would excute the skill when faced with a real ball.

The skill being learned is for the player's protection. It is foolish to completely avoid using a real ball.

I heard the same things when I coached LL and parents thought I was hitting balls to kids too hard. I used the same approach there with the youngest and least experienced players. You hit softer in the earlier practices (even using the tee balls to kids who were really afraid of the ball), working up to taking balls that were hit closer to what one would expect in the games from the top players.

You can use many drills/techniques to start the process of learning the skill. Eventually, the kids have to experience the real thing. Is it fair to the player to make that first experience occur in a game situation?

This is why most 9yr old start out in the outfield in LL. In general, they are not ready to be in the infield taking hard shots off the bat of a 12 yr old.

I played football and baseball in high school. Anyone who has knows the difference. NH, the more you write the less I think you played either.

If you need to teach players to get out of the way of a pitch at the high school level, then the coach should just forfeit the season. He obviously has no feeder program and needs to take the year to teach basic skills like throwing catching and hitting. This is something any 10 year old LL all star does every day of the week. That team must be the lamest in California.

quote:

Providence High officials say the intent of first-year Coach Nick Rondon was to teach a fundamental safety technique for the protection of players who were not reacting well to inside pitches.

He can probably add former first year coach to his title next month.

Dad04,

Interesting response, If he needs to teach them this, just dont play.

Exactly what is it that this 10 yr old LL player is doing every day that has to do with avoiding pitches?

Avoiding pitches is one those basic skills, but like a lot of skills its not taught correctly at lower levels. How many kids do you see on HS teams that still step out when they swing, or short arm their throws?

Personal attacks dont bother me, I played both baseball and football as well as basketball. If your coaches never ran the drills I described, that is not my concern.

The point of comparing it to football was very simple. Both sports have the risk of physical injury, and the coaches sometimes utilize teaching methods that parents disagree with. While the example of the fumble drill was perhaps extreme compared to this coaches drill, it is nonetheless are very real drill that causes injuries to HS athletes from time to time.

Its the old arguement, who is braver/tougher/more macho...etc, the baseball player who takes a pitch in the ribs with no pads, or the football player who has pads but gets hit on every play?


Both are particpating in sports where pain are part of the game.

Well this has been a fun discusion folks, but i have to head out and take care fo a few things for Mothers Day


To all the Moms out there


HAVE A GREAT MOTHER'S DAY!!!!

Thanks for the reminder NHF...

All of you Mother's out there...have a nice Mother's Day!

This is a good drill.

It teaches players to turn into the ball so they take the hit in the back as compared to the front of their body or face. Some players may even learn how to avoid being hit.

When a high school hard thrower lets the ball go at 90 mph, there isn't much time to react. If the drill can save a kid from a liver shot or face shot at that speed then I am all for it.

A ball traveling at 90 mph hitting the heart could cause enough blunt force trauma to cause the heart to stop.

Using the machine to set speed (say 60 mph) would give the kids time to react and for the real baseball players, learn how to take one for the team.

Even tennis balls can leave a mark.

sgt

Again another inane comment

Speaking of the good old days I read a psychologist's report in last weeks TIME where "spanking" is not such bad thing--perhaps the tide is turning--

DAD04--- experience and background are QUITE RELEVANT when making statements such as are being made--just because you"undertsand" the game does not necessarily mean you KNOW the game


Soon they will tell that running polls are brutality

I think my sons HS coach had the best idea of all-- he covered all the windows in the gym and locked all the doors--nobody got in or out once practice started

My experience is that developing skills is more effective than trying to force players to develop guts. The better you are the braver you are.

I've seen coaches hitting balls that are too hot for kids too handle and then yelling at them. I was one of those coaches. I eventually learned that hitting grounders at a speed the kids could handle and then gradually moving the difficulty up so their skills improved was far more effective. A bit more work for the coach but far more effective. Eventually they learned that they could handle even the hardest hit balls and that they missed so seldom that having one bounce off their chest once in a blue moon just wasn't a big deal.

As far as having to feel the pain that just isn't so. My son spent about a month fielding balls in a rigid back brace after injuring his back. He went from a kid who usually got in front of the ball to a kid who always got in front of the ball because he knew it wouldn't hurt. After the brace came off he just kept on getting in front of them.

It wasn't too bright in today's environment, but I don't feel it was a big deal to use hard balls at the lowest speed setting. I do believe that using tennis balls is just as effective. The important thing is to get them in the habit of turning in the right direction.

If one of my son's coaches was to run a drill like that I'd expect the coach to demonstrate the skill and to take as many hits as any of the players.

When I was a 13yo or 14yo pitcher throwing balls in the dirt at a camp the catcher who was a college player wasn't blocking them. His coach came up and told him to do it right. When the player protested it was just some kid throwing the coach who wasn't even wearing a shirt took the glove and then when I threw a pitch in the dirt he blocked it with his bare chest. The player blocked everything after that. That was a good coach, Sal Taormina.

TR….

While I have great respect for your insight and wisdom on many subjects and would defer to you in many cases...here we simply disagree. Does that make me an idiot or unqualified to speak? I would submit not.

Yes, I have some minor background in athletic development. Began life as an athlete, never stopped and still compete at a national level. Have spent the last 30 years since college full time coaching sports professionally. The vast majority one on one with competitive athletes looking for a physical, technical or mental edge. After 30 successful professional years of working with competitive athletes fulltime, thousands of hours in conferences on athletic development, hundreds of books, videos, learning from great coaches...I simply know how to get results with competitive athletes and teams.

If I didn't, I'd starve. And so would my family.

While I am obviously not at your level on baseball mechanics, and have never claimed to be...I respectfully don't consider this to be a particularly technical baseball question...had it been I would not have answered. I consider this to be a human and education question.

I simply believe that there are other ways to achieve the athletic task. And while I understand that there are many coaches out there using this methodology. I am not convinced that it is the right one.

We simply disagree.

44

observer

I never used those terms-- I simply asked a question so that I can get a better idea as to your position on this matter

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TR,

I agree. Those terms were never used. I stated it too strongly.

Apologies.

44
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No need to apologize-- we just see things differently

Let me lay this on you and you tell what you think

When I was 12 and on a LL Team (1954)-- we lost the first 4 games due to inadequacies at catcher and third base-- after the 4th loss the coaching staff decided that yours truly was moving from short to the catching spot and a 10 yr old ( he was to be later on drafted by the priates out of HS and the Yankees out of college)was going to be the third sacker

The day, I will never forget it, was humid and hot and we had just played the 4th losing game--After the game I was taken to an adjoining field to be shown the nuances of cathcing-- some 4 hours later I was the new catcher--- understand that the coaching staff had all been pro players, infact even played Triple A at Montreal in the Dodgers chain with Jackie Robinson and Chuck Connors ( The Rifleman) so as a 12 year old I was in total awe--an my dad who had been a semipro catcher was there as well righgt in the middle of the instruction

Totally exhausted I went home that night-- BUT we did not lose the remainder of the season, winning 14 straight, and 6 of our starting lineup ended up in the Top Ten Hitters

Today they call that -- back then it was called making the team better and getting the job done and I can tell you I have fond memories of that Saturday afternoon and the success we had after the move.

Perhaps this gives you a better idea as to how I look at the game and what players need to do

Great personal interest story about your early career TR. Really Enjoyed reading it. Thank you for sharing it with us. Keep up the good storehouse work promoting and coaching these players at the young age you are .
Sincerely,
Shep

I'll be honest, my intuition would be the tennis ball approach. Yet, I respect the different view points espoused - whether I agree with them or not. The nice thing about the way this thread has gone, there have been some disagreements, misunderstandings clarified, and yet, parties "respectfully" agreed to disagree.

One point I would like to make is that the old ways are not necessarily right nor should they necessarily be abandoned. I remember when I was a football player in 7th grade. It was still considered appropriate to withhold water as a form of punishment by the coaches. I am guessing no one advocates that approach anymore. Sometimes the old way of doing things cannot be perfected. Sometimes, approaches and techniques need to change.