Transfer Portal / NIL / Competitive Balance

@cabbagedad posted:

Professional leagues have spent years trying to find the right formula to maintain reasonable competitive balance.  Now, with the combined effects of relatively new rules (or lack thereof) for transfering and the NIL, NCAA competitive balance will be thrown drastically further in the wrong direction.  Now more than ever, players will be bought by the highest bidder with no restrictions or limitations.

So many of you have been big proponents of either the looser transfer guidelines, pay for play or both.  I think it will severely damage the good in college sports. Just today, yet another example... the leading WR in the PAC12 (from Arizona) announces he is transferring to USC.  I didn't drill down to any rationale but such a player could very well just do so because he wants to play for the strongest team.  And that strongest team can lure away such players with NIL promises.

And don't get me started on whatever happened to the term "commitment".  A few days ago, the #1 QB recruit in the class of '24 decommitted with no reason given.  This is happening at a much more frequent rate than ever before.

College sports wasn't perfect before but it was pretty darn good in so many ways.  I think there was need to loosen transfer rules but not make it a complete free-for-all.  Same with NIL.  They went way too far with these changes.  Sad.  Loved college sports.  I hope it survives without too much damage.

Here is a interesting podcast The Economics of College Sports

https://econofact.org/podcast/...cs-of-college-sports

I'm having a tough time seeing how this plays out in a positive way for college sports (in general, not for the top programs and players).  Not to add more s*!# on the pile, but more and more football players are opting out of bowl games to avoid the possibility of injury.  Are they going to opt out of the BCS too?  What impact would this have on the value of the post season and the revenue it generates.  This whole system could collapse on itself and eventually be the undoing of even the top programs.

When I see football and basketball commitments I'm unfazed now. There used to be some decommitting. Now I think to myself, " Let's see where he shows up freshman year."

@cabbagedad posted:

So many of you have been big proponents of either the looser transfer guidelines, pay for play or both.

I’m one of those folks. The one-time transfer exception is “one time”, so it’s not complete chaos. And NIL has helped 1,000s of kids earn some money which often helps with student loan debt. What actual harm have the changes caused? (I am actually interested, I'm not trying to be confrontational.) As far as competitive balance, haven’t we always had the same teams in the FBS, and even FCS, football “playoffs” every year? Basketball might be a tiny bit better in terms of balance, but we know basketball has the worst track record when it comes to paying kids under the table anyway. The coaches can leave for more money any time they want, so why shouldn't the kids be allowed to move one time without sitting out for an entire season? To paraphrase Jerry Seinfeld, people cheer for the laundry. Players come and go at the big schools and the fans keep cheering.

I do think the smart thing to do would be for the big revenue schools to leave the NCAA and form their own association, and just make the players employees. They have the money, and they could avoid most of the problems caused by pretending otherwise.  Let the NCAA go back to serving legitimate student athletes, not unpaid professionals.

* edited to correct NIL

@MidAtlanticDad posted:

I do think the smart thing to do would be for the big revenue schools to leave the NCAA and form their own association, and just make the players employees. They have the money, and they could avoid most of the problems caused by pretending otherwise.  Let the NCAA go back to serving legitimate student athletes, not unpaid professionals.

Agree 100%

I am pro one time transfer. I think if it can help anybody get out of a bad situation and have them be immediately eligible it is worth it. I also don't think you should be able to transfer in conference but that is a different discussion.

The issue with football is the scholarship issue. 85 full scholarships pretty much allows you to do whatever you want. It allows all the top players to go to the same 12 schools, it allows coaches the flexibility to have anybody they want transfer in/out. It allows you to recruit everyone and just keep what works. Schools like Bama, Ohio St, etc can essentially never miss when there is an endless funnel of talent coming in because there are enough resources.

That 85 number needs to be closer to 50. The NFL has a 53 man roster limit. Think about that.

@MidAtlanticDad posted:

I’m one of those folks. The one-time transfer exception is “one time”, so it’s not complete chaos. And NLI has helped 1,000s of kids earn some money which often helps with student loan debt.

I can assure you the players getting NLI money are not going into student debt, they're on full rides.

@PABaseball posted:

I can assure you the players getting NLI money are not going into student debt, they're on full rides.

Don’t be so sure.

https://www.si.com/.amp/colleg...on-tuition-built-bar

@PABaseball posted:

I can assure you the players getting NLI money are not going into student debt, they're on full rides.

There’s a lot more NLI money out there than just for headcount sports. I know of baseball guys on partial scholarships getting anywhere from $1,000 to $10,000 from local businesses like car dealerships. I also know some players from women’s sports with small deals like equipment endorsements. UNC has an independent exchange to help connect athletes and businesses, many of them are small local deals. I’m sure others schools have similar organizations.
https://www.tarheelblog.com/20...ls-nil-opportunities

@MidAtlanticDad posted:

I’m one of those folks. The one-time transfer exception is “one time”, so it’s not complete chaos. And NLI has helped 1,000s of kids earn some money which often helps with student loan debt. What actual harm have the changes caused? (I am actually interested, I'm not trying to be confrontational.) As far as competitive balance, haven’t we always had the same teams in the FBS, and even FCS, football “playoffs” every year? Basketball might be a tiny bit better in terms of balance, but we know basketball has the worst track record when it comes to paying kids under the table anyway. The coaches can leave for more money any time they want, so why shouldn't the kids be allowed to move one time without sitting out for an entire season? To paraphrase Jerry Seinfeld, people cheer for the laundry. Players come and go at the big schools and the fans keep cheering.

I do think the smart thing to do would be for the big revenue schools to leave the NCAA and form their own association, and just make the players employees. They have the money, and they could avoid most of the problems caused by pretending otherwise.  Let the NCAA go back to serving legitimate student athletes, not unpaid professionals.

The NCAA has never served legitimate student athletes. The NCAA serves itself and it’s member institutions. No one else

@MidAtlanticDad posted:

I’m one of those folks. The one-time transfer exception is “one time”, so it’s not complete chaos. And NLI has helped 1,000s of kids earn some money which often helps with student loan debt. What actual harm have the changes caused? (I am actually interested, I'm not trying to be confrontational.) As far as competitive balance, haven’t we always had the same teams in the FBS, and even FCS, football “playoffs” every year? Basketball might be a tiny bit better in terms of balance, but we know basketball has the worst track record when it comes to paying kids under the table anyway. The coaches can leave for more money any time they want, so why shouldn't the kids be allowed to move one time without sitting out for an entire season? To paraphrase Jerry Seinfeld, people cheer for the laundry. Players come and go at the big schools and the fans keep cheering.

I do think the smart thing to do would be for the big revenue schools to leave the NCAA and form their own association, and just make the players employees. They have the money, and they could avoid most of the problems caused by pretending otherwise.  Let the NCAA go back to serving legitimate student athletes, not unpaid professionals.

Hey Mid,

Regarding "confrontational", no problem at all.  I was hoping for some good back-and-forth banter.  I realize that my opinion and preferences on the topic are not in alignment with quite a few here who are much smarter than I and maybe have better insight on this.

I think, on it's own, the one-time transfer rule is a good thing.  I also believe that student athletes needed to have less restrictions on ways they could earn money as related to their sports participation.  I just think the direction that was taken with NIL allows for too much of a free-for-all - drastic and uncontrollable.  And when you combine that with the loosening of the transfer rules, it will have significant negative impact on the spirit of college sports at the big school level, IMO.

Yes, there has historically been a lack of balance at the higher levels of college sports.  Yes, big money has played a major role.  But there was always just enough of a sense of "amateur" status maintained, just enough roster continuity and just enough community/alma mater following that fans continued to passionately root for State U.  Personally, I like the delineation between scholastic sports and professional sports.  I just think this will get diluted as it becomes more clearly and openly money driven and as good, proven college players get bounced around to the highest bidder.   Time will tell.

I don't see the need for big revenue schools to form their own association.  We already have clear separation with divisions.  D2 schools are not considered for inclusion in D1 championships or awards, etc.

If the governing body (NCAA) is flawed, that is the part that needs fixed.

https://businessofcollegesport...fic-nil-collectives/

A list of the most active and successful collectives.

"And NLI has helped 1,000s of kids earn some money which often helps with student loan debt. What actual harm have the changes caused? " (Mid Atlantic Dad)

I don't think we'll know for a few years, but when we do I'm sure we'll debate the sensibility of the current system!

If we didn't keep hearing millions of dollars, I'd be less inclined to be skeptical about NLIs. What kid really needs that much to pay tuition? Is it just a form of legalized gambling? What do the "contributors" get out of it and do they get return on their investment? Are they "compensated" by the schools in any way in the form of "no bid contracts"?

I hope the receiving students are required to attend money management classes. My assumption is some schools will 'guarantee' the student can get $X (or will be helped by someone in the athletic office to procure)... But when it doesn't come thru, they move on. No different than being guaranteed play time until of course someone better comes along. No different to the "real world" where people chase salary and change jobs every 12-18 months. Gone are the days of the 25 year employee! That chasing of salary leads eventually to lay offs when the business model cannot support it (tech companies recently). In the real world we "pay" for this in the form of unemployment taxes which perhaps is where some of these athletes are headed because all they've been taught is someone else will take care of them. I'm all for getting yours, but it does come at a certain price. In my case, it's caring that much about who is where. It is purely entertainment at this point - no different than the pros.

Think through your leave the NCAA idea... Isn't that in a way also known as the "minor leagues"? Don't they struggle to stay afloat? Going into business for themselves will be costly - they like the "fallback" of what the NCAA can provide in any number of areas related to volume (legal/laws, health, taxes, etc). It would probably destroy the rest of the schools who remain too. They know it and are willing to look the other way.

Collectives were created to help the student athlete to learn how to be successful and manage themselves as a business and provide opportunities. I think that there may be criteria involved for opportunities within individual Collectives. Usually in baseball, the prospects are projected ML.

No help is allowed to come from any university employee or the NCAA.  The coaching staff can make recommendations to a Collective.  Many states have laws in place regarding NIL.

I am all in on athletes being able to profit from their NIL, especially female athletes, many who have become pretty wealthy from their endorsements.

@PABaseball posted:

I can assure you the players getting NLI money are not going into student debt, they're on full rides.

Not in baseball…

everyone is full ride in football.

I can also tell you that some coaches are using NIL to get around scholarship requirements. They are offering NIL in the same amount as the scholarships but then there are no rules applied as to cancelling it.

@JohnF i know several on the women's basketball and baseball side. They are getting exactly what it is called...getting paid for adding their name or image to an existing product or brand or for creating their own merchandise. The ones that we are the closest with are working with financial advisors to manage the funds.

As a mother of a female D1 player who works just as hard as my baseball playing son...I'm glad to see some of these opportunities. She does not have an NIL deal but several of her HS teammates do and she's happy for them. She understands free market pressures.  Is the system perfect? no. Does it need oversight at some level to keep it from being an ungovernable free for all? ....probably. It will definitely be interesting to see where it goes...

@PTWood posted:

... Does it need oversight at some level to keep it from being an ungovernable free for all? ....probably. It will definitely be interesting to see where it goes...

That's the concern.  The NCAA struggled to manage oversight before.  Now it's the wild wild west.  I don't think it will be much of an issue at the lower levels where most student athletes will be lucky to drum up some modest amounts.  But the big programs and high level recruits?

There will never be effective oversight of NIL. Cabbagedad is absolutely right. Rich get richer - will also be greater pressure on kids to build enormous social followings- the NIL money outside revenue sports seems to go to the already semi-famous

Sorry guys. There wasn't a whole lotta oversight before (on the high ends of football and men's basketball) but a kid could get kicked out of school for selling his jersey while huge deals were cut between AAU organizations, coaches ans shoe companies. Again, I think the "answer" went overboard but to think there wasn't some shady crap going on before....