Travel Ball Question

The day that you walk onto a baseball field (or enter any competition) and don't want to win is the day that you should find something else to do. A player should be level-headed about the game and hopefully take something postitive away from every game be it a win or a loss.

Even more importantly parents need to underrstand that they need to keep this a positive experience. If they are ripping on the kid every time he does something wrong, then he won't want to ever make a mistake which in this game means he will never want to play.

redbird, that is awfully big question. Matter to who???

As parent, it always matter to me to try and achieve or accomplish a goal...sometimes that is seen by wins and losses. Did I as a parent compare the wins and losses as the only criteria. No! I wanted to see my son grow and continue to improve.

As a coach (paid especially)...he will be measured by the wins and losses. I believe the best coaches are like Coach K said...the coach is the leader and he needs to lead, but sorry to say wins and losses will determine how long he coaches. Traveling ball can add up to alot of money...product is very important.

To the player, this is the tough one. I think if he is playing to improve and go to the next level, then he will measure himself with this criteria. If he thinks wins are the only thing that matters, then he may accomplish short term success but it will catch up to him. I think knowing how to win and playing to win is the reason why we keep score and does add positive experience.

To the scout, whether college or pro...no. He only looks at the individual. A team's ability to win, my get individual notice..but from that point, the wins and losses are not important.

benchwarmer...I didn't say that you don't want to win...but, IMO, winning is seconday at the 11u / 12U level. What does winning get you at this level?

Winning is important for a number of reasons;

Kids need to learn what makes a baseball team work. It is a team game where every player has a specific role to play. That role can change based on situations.

Winning builds confidence. Without confidence it is all but impossible to play this crazy game.

For everyone involved, it is more fun to win than it is to lose. We want our kids to have fun.

All that being said there is a balance between winning and lunacy. I have seen coaches that play weak opponents on purpose just to have a good record, coaches who have pitched a boy too much in order to win, I could go on and on. However,

When I walk onto a field as a coach and when I did as a player, it was always my primary goal to win the game. I have tried to instill the same resolve in my son. As of this point he hates to lose but is not obsessed with it, uses losing as a tool to find ways to improve, works with his teammates to make them better so the team is better, and was voted captain of his high school team by his peers.

I'll give you my opinion being a travel player on a 14 yr old team. Honestly, to all my team members and to me too, if we don't win we all get very disappointed. I know coaches try to teach that if you try your best it doesn't matter who wins, but at our level it's about winning. After a big W our team and I'm sure any team's atmosphere is great and that helps contribute to our next game. If we have a big loss or seem to keep losing, the atmosphere is obviously not as great.

So to answer your question from a person who actually palys on the team's standpoint...yes winning definitely matters.

Keeler

I always felt winning was one of the most important aspect of select or travel ball even at the younger ages. These teams play in a tournament situations and to be able to compete with the best, you have to win your pool in order to go head to head with the best.
Winning also establishes a tradition... and traditions have a way of getting the most from a player. This winning tradition also draws the best talent, and if coached properly, talented players compliment each other.
I agree with ahsbb that the pro scout is probably NOT concerned with the W-L but I would almost bet the player he’s evaluating is VERY concerned with winning.
Fungo

This is the pre-HS forum right? We are talking about the younger kids right? Pro scouts???

I just don't see much relevancy in the win-loss record at this age. Sure it is always more fun winning than losing but in the big picture it is pretty insignificant.

IMO the goal should be to have fun and learn the fundamentals of baseball. The difference between rec and travel at this age is that players can play with and against better competition. They can also learn more advanced skills. For the better players travel ball should ultimately further their love for the game.

I do believe that the goals for travel ball are different for pre-HS players than they are for HS players.

As parents of 9-12yo, our goal should be to provide the opportunities to let them play, have fun and learn. We are preparing them for the next level (HS). Some will make it and some won't. This is the time for FUN! JMO.

For me when you play "select travel ball: at the 12U/11U you are playing to win.

If you dont want that atmosphere then don't play travel ball

When I ran a 12 U travel team we played in tournaments and used games against local town teams as upgraded practice sessions where we played and taught with winning or losing not mattering--it was additional practice for tournaments--to be honest we did not have too many days off as I and my assistants had jobs that allowed us to be homw for late afternoon practices every day.

It all comes down to what you want--we set it up so we had the best of both worlds-- tournaments and teaching

Winning is important! Losing is important! You can learn much from both. I was involved in helping coach a travel squad that won many more than they lost. It seemed that after each time we played a very top-notch team, we would always comment as to how we would enjoy going 50-50 with those type teams rather than 10-1 against teams that were consistently more inferior...too much "complacency" with the latter.

On my son's teams in which I have been involved as a coach, we always have a motto:

"It's not about winning or losing, it's about having fun. Oh, by the way, losing isn't fun."

Seriously, winning is important because a won/loss record provides the feedback that the team and the players are developing the skills and knowledge that make them better players.

Is winning the most important thing? NO. If it was, we would cheat, abuse pitcher's arms, play only teams of less ability, etc.

But, assuming the competition level is appropriate, winning is a by-product of other things that ARE the most important things, and therefore it is an important indicator that these things are being developed.

quote:

Originally posted by Rob Kremer:
...winning is a by-product of other things that ARE the most important things, and therefore it is an important indicator that these things are being developed.

Rob,

My thoughts exactly.

The competition we play varies greatly and we seldom know what we are going to run into when we sign up for a tournament. This last weekend our mostly 13u team played what looked to be another 13u team in our first game and beat them handily, but more importantly played near flawless defense. Our second game was against a fairly strong, compared to us, 14u team (Good enough to win 14u USSSA AAA tournament.) and we were beaten 11-6 but were tied 6-6 going into the bottom of the 6th. That was enough to get us a rematch with the same team in the semis and we jumped on them for 3 runs in the top of the first but they were too strong for us after that and beat us 11-4. Overall, I was quite pleased with the 1-2 record for the tournament as we beat the team we should have and hung tough against strong competition.

If you want your kid to be the best ballplayers they can be, then it is necessary to play the very best competition you can find. Sometimes that requires a lot more travel, cost and inconvenience but the rewards are so much greater.

During high school it has been very common to come across a stud pitcher from another team that we faced at a younger age in travel ball. This gives our kids more confidence facing him since they have seen him before.

I agree with TR in that we took our local (non-tournament games) and used them as practice games to get ready for the tournaments.

TR

I have to disagree with you here. At this age the win/loss record is more important to the coach than to the kids. You can tell who the coaches are in this thread....Sorry.

My perspective may be different than most because I currently have an 11yo and a college ball player. I know what the 11yo will have to accomplish to get to not only HS ball but college and his team's win/loss records mean nothing right now...

At 11yo it is FAR more important that he is having fun and learning. There will be plenty of wins and loses down the road....

Callaway

If you read what I posted-- we had both-- the competition and the winning and PLENTY of practice time---I have had both situations just as you have now-- again use the system that works for you-- what we did worked for us--differnet strokes for diffeent folks

TR

I re-read your post and the part that is missing, is the word fun.

CALLAWAY
I don't know about you
But
To me teaching and winning combined equals "FUN"

Like I say --different strokes for different folks

quote:

To me teaching and winning combined equals "FUN"

Sorry, I thought we were talking about the kids.

I am--dont know what you are talking about though

Clearly what you wrote referred to YOUR fun. Perhaps you meant "Learning and winning" and not "Teaching and winning".

It should be fun for the kids. Period!

CALLAWAY

How in Gods name do you get that from what I posted ???

I will tell you what I have said to others--dont make judgements about others thoughts and posts if you dont know them--- you have absolutely no idea as to what I am saying or thinking

"Teaching" is not something that kids do is it? I can't interpret what you are thinking, only what you wrote.

"To me teaching and winning combined equals FUN"

As stated, it is clear that you are referring to "your" fun, since you are doing the teaching. I simply don't subscribe to the notion that because the coaches are having fun that the kids are as well. Too many kids get burned out at this age needlessly. Whether it's Rec, Travel or Elite, winning is NOT as important at this age as having fun IMO.

Maybe that's what you meant, but that is not what you wrote. Usually you are on the side of the kids, so I'll stand corrected.

All the best.

I have seen kids this age cry their hearts out because they lost. I personally wrote in in my son's hat "It's just a game" because the emotions caused from losing. I have seen many coaches put their arm around a young boy, wipe his tears and tell him that losing is not a bad thing. I think winning is part of many players make-up whether he's 5 or 50. Is that good or bad? I don't really know, but you have to appreciate the player that tries his best to win.
Fungo

I think winning is a byproduct of hardwork and improving. Games are just a means to show how hard we have worked. Believe me, when the game starts my players play to win. But, their lives do not depend on the outcome of the game. Our kids may cry after losses but, 10 minutes later, they are off playing wall ball or some other kid game.

Many teams I see will cut the lesser players at the end of a season and replace them with the best players available. Many teams develop only 6-7 pitchers, ignoring the #8 or #9 guy. My experience has told me that those #8 or #9 kids have just as good chance to play HS and college as the #1 or #2 kid.

What is the coach's responsibility? Winning or developing players?

Redbird

You can do both---win and develop players if you want to

That is what we did with the youngsters--and that is what we strive to do now with HS players who play for us

As boys get older (13 & 14) I believe that for kids to succeed at the next level, they need to play the best competition possible. Most quality teams will change some personnel in order to maintain a competitive balance. Does this mean that the kids who didn't make the cut aren't worthy of playing at the next level, absolutely not. They may just have not developed yet or there are other players available who are better. Odds are they are going to have to work harder to succeed at the next level.

I don't think that this is hard or callous. This is just what they need so they can make a decision on how good they want to be. This also allows the kids on the team to be able to play the best caliber of player possible enabling them to be the best player that they can be. This is what travel baseball at the 7th and 8th grade level should be about. This is the best way to prepare these boys for what lies ahead.

TR,

I agree.

Benchwarmer,

Why cut players? Can these teams not make the existing players better?

By the way, how do you cut a 13U kid that you have helped develop (or not) for at least a year? "Umm...sorry, son...you just aren't good enough anymore. Since I couldn't improve you, I have just gone out and found better players."

Again, what is the responsibility of the coach in all of this - win or develop?

My experience is that the kids were fine with it because everything was explained up front. The parents were not happy, but that was not our concern. Some of the kids that I have cut in the past have taken it upon themselves to do the work necessary to get to the next level while others decided that they were not going to be good enough and committed to other sports.

In the end, I remain on good terms with the kids and the parents to this day. The only parent who is mad at me still is one who I took and could not compete at the level we played. The key is to be honest with them and let them know what your thoughts are (even when it is difficult to do so).

Our team and our methods were not for everybody. But to the player who wanted to be the best and play the best it was extremely well received.

I agree with being upfront with them but how do the returning players (say a SS) feel who comes back the next year to be the backup SS and starting LF because you recruited someone better? Ultimately, I understand the "bottom" kids...most of them quit to be a "stud" on a lesser team.

Also, could you answer my question...what is the coach's responsibility - win or develop players? Also doesn't recruiting each year signal that the coach couldn't develop the talent?

When you only carry 11 or 12 players you should not have the problem of playing time. If we already had a ss we would not seek out another one. Even if a better one came calling we would say that the position is filled. We did recruit for specific positions.

Our ultimate responsibility is to develop players, if that is done well then the winning should take care of itself.

Does recruiting each year mean that we did not do as good a job of devlopment as we hoped. Absolutely. Although we hate to admit it, we either misjudged the talent or we were unable to get through to the boy what we wanted done.

Fortunately, there are other teams for them to go onto and as you say, they usually became the studs over there.