Travel team Roster size?

14 total kids seems about right for 14U.  How many total pitchers?  You'll need 7-8 for sure with a few more that can throw a couple innings if needed if you go to a PG event where you're guaranteed 5+ games.  3 catchers is fine, especially if 2 of them may be pitching. 

I think 14 committed players is the magic number for a teenaged travel team.

Big enough to allow for injuries.  Small enough for an acceptable amount of playing time.

Teenaged players get hurt  (unlike pre-teens, who are made out of rubber)

In 13u and 14u we had thirteen players. When pitchers pitched they were DH'ed for no matter what. When they finished pitching they came out of the game. We used an EH. At least twelve kids (10 lineup/2 pitchers) played most games. Chances are the other player got in the game in the late innings. 

Because it was a talented team with fairly equal levels of talent playing time was fairly equitable. I had an "extras" list of pitchers if I thought we might need more pitching in a given weekend. At 16u we added three pitchers only.

There are about 6 pitchers that would be just fine starting an elim game. About 4 others that can provide quality innings here and there. 

This will be the first season for the pitchers / catchers to throw from 60'6", so rest will be huge.  Not too mention that these boys are just hitting their major growth spurts and I foresee several issues with joint aches and pains. 

I don't think 14 is enough to protect arms properly if teams are playing 5-7 games a weekend.   Pitching and then playing a position in the same weekend leads to arm injuries.  So many people are in denial about that.

IndyBall posted:

There are about 6 pitchers that would be just fine starting an elim game. About 4 others that can provide quality innings here and there. 

This will be the first season for the pitchers / catchers to throw from 60'6", so rest will be huge.  Not too mention that these boys are just hitting their major growth spurts and I foresee several issues with joint aches and pains. 

You sorta answered your own question here...  only thing I would add is it doesn't really matter that you have 10 kids that can pitch.  It matters that they have a structure and plan in place that will allow the pitchers to rest, much like RJM describes.  

13, 14 players is definitely not too many.  What is crazy, IMO, is when teams enter tourneys with 10 or 11 (at any age) and I see it all the time.  

The bigger question you should be asking yourself is why they are playing tourneys during the school season.  That can be a bad recipe.

It's not how many players you have. It's how many pitchers you have. We had a lot of kids who could pitch if needed. Almost everyone was pitching for their middle school. Chances are here will be one pool game you can select pitchers from the back of the staff. Then maybe another pool game gets out of control and you go to the back of your staff after a few innings. 

This only screwed us once. The back of the staff pitcher gave up two runs in a game we were winning big. We lost the runs against tiebreaker (2 of 3 2-1 teams advanced) by one run.

3and2Fastball posted:

I don't think 14 is enough to protect arms properly if teams are playing 5-7 games a weekend.   Pitching and then playing a position in the same weekend leads to arm injuries.  So many people are in denial about that.

The overuse is definitely a concern. Last season the coach would use a combination of pitchers for each game, giving each P a set pitch limit, then a set amount of rest.  There was a total allowed for a game and a second total allowed for the whole tourney. It seemed to work out ok. 

We're always looking for advice on maximizing performance while maximizing rest. Not the easiest thing to do, along with keeping the parents and players happy. 

cabbagedad posted:

IndyBall posted:

 

The bigger question you should be asking yourself is why they are playing tourneys during the school season.  That can be a bad recipe.

14U is a tough age, you may have kids that don't have a "school season".  Around here, not a lot of teams do.   We had junior high baseball from late April until the end of school (late May), but it was awful. Maybe 6-8 games total if the weather permitted...and some of the smaller  schools around us were really short on kids and not very good.   It was also during track season, so not a lot of kids were playing.  Most waited until the summer season started.  My son played both (school and travel) both years....travel took priority if there was a conflict and he didn't pitch for the school team so he'd be available on weekends.  

Buckeye 2015 posted:

cabbagedad posted:

IndyBall posted:

 

The bigger question you should be asking yourself is why they are playing tourneys during the school season.  That can be a bad recipe.

14U is a tough age, you may have kids that don't have a "school season".  Around here, not a lot of teams do.   We had junior high baseball from late April until the end of school (late May), but it was awful. Maybe 6-8 games total if the weather permitted...and some of the smaller  schools around us were really short on kids and not very good.   It was also during track season, so not a lot of kids were playing.  Most waited until the summer season started.  My son played both (school and travel) both years....travel took priority if there was a conflict and he didn't pitch for the school team so he'd be available on weekends.  

I could see where that would make it less cut n dry.

cabbagedad posted:

IndyBall posted:

There are about 6 pitchers that would be just fine starting an elim game. About 4 others that can provide quality innings here and there. 

This will be the first season for the pitchers / catchers to throw from 60'6", so rest will be huge.  Not too mention that these boys are just hitting their major growth spurts and I foresee several issues with joint aches and pains. 

You sorta answered your own question here...  only thing I would add is it doesn't really matter that you have 10 kids that can pitch.  It matters that they have a structure and plan in place that will allow the pitchers to rest, much like RJM describes.  

13, 14 players is definitely not too many.  What is crazy, IMO, is when teams enter tourneys with 10 or 11 (at any age) and I see it all the time.  

The bigger question you should be asking yourself is why they are playing tourneys during the school season.  That can be a bad recipe.

The school team carries 20 plus players and plays a limited schedule. Four games in a week is the max and that includes a DH on Sunday, with each game of the DH being a completely different lineup than the other.  I'm a coach on the school team and we keep a tight watch on the number of pitches thrown, which starts out low and gradually increases throughout the season. It's really a developmental program for the HS. 

We we are going to coordinate with the travel coach, to make sure the travel kids are rested up before a tourney. 

1. Spread the knowledge around, you do NOT pitch for your Middle School team and Travel ball team at the same time.  Pick one and stick with it....I don't care if they talk, I don't care if you are watching pitch counts do NOT do both. While it may be within the acceptable guidelines 12u-14u has the most growth plate injuries and kids side lined by 100% preventable stuff.

2. Playing time starts getting tighter at 14u, might as well start now, he will be fighting for the rest of his baseball life.

3. Roster of 14, yes you are good, except for PG events.  You need to pick up at least 3 more kids that can pitch, shouldn't be hard, because they follow Pitchsmart guidelines.  

IndyBall posted:

cabbagedad posted:

IndyBall posted:

There are about 6 pitchers that would be just fine starting an elim game. About 4 others that can provide quality innings here and there. 

This will be the first season for the pitchers / catchers to throw from 60'6", so rest will be huge.  Not too mention that these boys are just hitting their major growth spurts and I foresee several issues with joint aches and pains. 

You sorta answered your own question here...  only thing I would add is it doesn't really matter that you have 10 kids that can pitch.  It matters that they have a structure and plan in place that will allow the pitchers to rest, much like RJM describes.  

13, 14 players is definitely not too many.  What is crazy, IMO, is when teams enter tourneys with 10 or 11 (at any age) and I see it all the time.  

The bigger question you should be asking yourself is why they are playing tourneys during the school season.  That can be a bad recipe.

The school team carries 20 plus players and plays a limited schedule. Four games in a week is the max and that includes a DH on Sunday, with each game of the DH being a completely different lineup than the other.  I'm a coach on the school team and we keep a tight watch on the number of pitches thrown, which starts out low and gradually increases throughout the season. It's really a developmental program for the HS. 

 

We we are going to coordinate with the travel coach, to make sure the travel kids are rested up before a tourney. 

It's good that there is communication and coordination between the two.  Other questions certainly come up but we'll stay on your topic question regarding roster size ...

As evident by your 20+ player school roster, big rosters will become the norm going forward, whether for a strong school program (HS or college) where a player has to compete for a spot and for PT or a showcase setup where players may get rotated and left with limited innings.   So, generally, I think it is good to start preparing  and encouraging the kids to embrace the fact that they will face larger rosters and competitive environments.  At the same time, it is important to have a clear understanding with travel teams what the playing time arrangement will be going in as well as what precautions will be in place to protect arms. 

Just to be realistic...

Decide now if winning these tourneys - or just playing in them is the goal.

If winning them is the goal, you aren't going to be able to rest your top pitchers enough so that they can be out there playing a position on their off days. You are going to need them on the mound just to be competitive. 

If you are okay with starting your number 6 guy and living with the results, then you can get away with a smaller team and fewer dedicated pitchers.  If your team is one that is expecting to compete for championships, you are going to need to be able to cover at least 6-7 games in a 4-5 day period. That's tough on a 14 man roster.

In 13u and 14u we had one tournament on a weekend before the middle school season ended. I contacted every middle school coach requesting when and how much the kids pitched last and how the coach needed them for the following week. 

Our 14u has 17 players. I forsee a few learning lessons.

CaCO3Girl posted:

1. Spread the knowledge around, you do NOT pitch for your Middle School team and Travel ball team at the same time.  Pick one and stick with it....I don't care if they talk, I don't care if you are watching pitch counts do NOT do both. While it may be within the acceptable guidelines 12u-14u has the most growth plate injuries and kids side lined by 100% preventable stuff.

2. Playing time starts getting tighter at 14u, might as well start now, he will be fighting for the rest of his baseball life.

3. Roster of 14, yes you are good, except for PG events.  You need to pick up at least 3 more kids that can pitch, shouldn't be hard, because they follow Pitchsmart guidelines.  

Age	Daily Max (Pitches in Game)	Required Rest (Pitches)
		0 Days	1 Days	2 Days	3 Days	4 Days
13-14	95	1-20	21-35	36-50	51-65	66+

1) CaCO is 100% right.  I was asking around about what is TOO much playing time and TOO many teams before the summer. Now my son isnt a pitcher but he is a catcher.  After JV ball ended, he rolled right into JR Legion at the same time we played travel.  He would catch anywhere from 2-4 games a week to anywhere from 3-5 games on the weekend.  Near the end it was almost 4 games during the week and would catch most weekend games since our back up catcher hurt his elbow.  It was way too much.  After legion ended and we had a few weeks off till we had our last tournament and he was throwing seeds again.  It was very obvious he was getting worn out and the few weeks rest did him wonders.  We didn't intend to be that busy but he was the best catcher by far in local legion and last man standing in travel.  Need to account for that next year.

2).  For those who are heading to HS.  You will start seeing guys become role players.  Some HS programs have a 9th grade team...Some have only JV and HS.  We were the latter.  there were 12-15 8th graders on the middle school team.  They only took 6 freshman.  Only 3 saw consistent playing time and only my son was called up at playoffs and that was strictly to be a bullpen catcher.  The HS will designate a guy as a hitting project....a pitcher only....only a left fielder....   Even though T was a better at the OF than some of the JV guys playing, he did NOT play the outfield in JV.  If he didnt catch, he sat.  He batted over .330 in JV with a couple of doubles.   There were times he had guys who didnt have a hit all year bat for him.  Or they would bunt him.    Expect stuff to make NO SENSE when you get up to HS.       For Travel his new team (2018 15/u) has 12 positional players (2 catchers) with both already hitting 2.1 pop times.  They have an additional 5 pitcher only players.  If I heard right, all but the catchers are expected to be able to throw during a game.  They will be allowed to show up for their game, pitch and then return home for the weekend if they so choose. I am assuming T would be catcher only unless his hitting is where they would need to play him in the OF when he isnt behind the plate.  It seems like now that we have hit 15/u guys are no longer being moved around like they did at 14/u.

3). His travel club from this summer at 14/u had one guy throwing low to mid 80's.  One guy hit 80 (although not as accurate and consistent).  After that we started to tail off at 75-79 a few guys and bunch at 70-75.   We were in or won almost all the games our stud threw.  Problem was two fold.  First- we know that sometimes in a tourney two teams match up in the semis that produce a better game than the champs do!  So we used our stud in must win situations and not the final games.  second- When you play these larger showcase and high end tournaments, you better have a whole bunch of guys at 14/u throwing 80+.  You need to have a SEVERAL stud pitchers.  Whether they are throwing gas and hitting spots or are really sneaky and good with location and off speed.  The days of having one stud for the championship game is over.  I think most of these tournaments a 2-1 record wont get you into the winners bracket come sunday.  Plus if your son IS one of the pitching studs, it would be nice to know you aren't ridden till your arm falls off!

Kevin A posted:

CaCO3Girl posted:

1. Spread the knowledge around, you do NOT pitch for your Middle School team and Travel ball team at the same time.  Pick one and stick with it....I don't care if they talk, I don't care if you are watching pitch counts do NOT do both. While it may be within the acceptable guidelines 12u-14u has the most growth plate injuries and kids side lined by 100% preventable stuff.

2. Playing time starts getting tighter at 14u, might as well start now, he will be fighting for the rest of his baseball life.

3. Roster of 14, yes you are good, except for PG events.  You need to pick up at least 3 more kids that can pitch, shouldn't be hard, because they follow Pitchsmart guidelines.  

Age	Daily Max (Pitches in Game)	Required Rest (Pitches)
		0 Days	1 Days	2 Days	3 Days	4 Days
13-14	95	1-20	21-35	36-50	51-65	66+

1) CaCO is 100% right.  I was asking around about what is TOO much playing time and TOO many teams before the summer. Now my son isnt a pitcher but he is a catcher.  After JV ball ended, he rolled right into JR Legion at the same time we played travel.  He would catch anywhere from 2-4 games a week to anywhere from 3-5 games on the weekend.  Near the end it was almost 4 games during the week and would catch most weekend games since our back up catcher hurt his elbow.  It was way too much.  After legion ended and we had a few weeks off till we had our last tournament and he was throwing seeds again.  It was very obvious he was getting worn out and the few weeks rest did him wonders.  We didn't intend to be that busy but he was the best catcher by far in local legion and last man standing in travel.  Need to account for that next year.

2).  For those who are heading to HS.  You will start seeing guys become role players.  Some HS programs have a 9th grade team...Some have only JV and HS.  We were the latter.  there were 12-15 8th graders on the middle school team.  They only took 6 freshman.  Only 3 saw consistent playing time and only my son was called up at playoffs and that was strictly to be a bullpen catcher.  The HS will designate a guy as a hitting project....a pitcher only....only a left fielder....   Even though T was a better at the OF than some of the JV guys playing, he did NOT play the outfield in JV.  If he didnt catch, he sat.  He batted over .330 in JV with a couple of doubles.   There were times he had guys who didnt have a hit all year bat for him.  Or they would bunt him.    Expect stuff to make NO SENSE when you get up to HS.       For Travel his new team (2018 15/u) has 12 positional players (2 catchers) with both already hitting 2.1 pop times.  They have an additional 5 pitcher only players.  If I heard right, all but the catchers are expected to be able to throw during a game.  They will be allowed to show up for their game, pitch and then return home for the weekend if they so choose. I am assuming T would be catcher only unless his hitting is where they would need to play him in the OF when he isnt behind the plate.  It seems like now that we have hit 15/u guys are no longer being moved around like they did at 14/u.

3). His travel club from this summer at 14/u had one guy throwing low to mid 80's.  One guy hit 80 (although not as accurate and consistent).  After that we started to tail off at 75-79 a few guys and bunch at 70-75.   We were in or won almost all the games our stud threw.  Problem was two fold.  First- we know that sometimes in a tourney two teams match up in the semis that produce a better game than the champs do!  So we used our stud in must win situations and not the final games.  second- When you play these larger showcase and high end tournaments, you better have a whole bunch of guys at 14/u throwing 80+.  You need to have a SEVERAL stud pitchers.  Whether they are throwing gas and hitting spots or are really sneaky and good with location and off speed.  The days of having one stud for the championship game is over.  I think most of these tournaments a 2-1 record wont get you into the winners bracket come sunday.  Plus if your son IS one of the pitching studs, it would be nice to know you aren't ridden till your arm falls off!

 

Great stuff. Thanks!

14 is not enough for PG tourneys of 6-7 games, too many for 4-5 tournaments. Is your team about winning first or player development? Best to know first. 

Nonamedad posted:

14 is not enough for PG tourneys of 6-7 games, too many for 4-5 tournaments. Is your team about winning first or player development? Best to know first. 

We had 14 last year. Pitching was always tight; never having enough if we went deep into tournaments because no kid was pitching complete games. 17 is a lot, but maybe part of that development is earning your way onto the field.