Troubling Statistics

Were: yes Are: no

I dont see Aaron's name---he is not in the top 10?

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Answer: ****!

Also keep in mind that players do not necessarily use roids or banned supplements to bulk up--they use it in the healing process just like you or I might for certain physical conditions ( arthritis, gout, surgeries etc.

What do you think Pettite did?


Again not condoning what they did or are doing but understand what it is all about----remember when Brett Farve went into rehab--he wasn't a druggie as the medis termed him, but trapped into the pain killers he was taking for the multiple feet of intestines he had removed after an accident.

woody


The top of the thread says Top 10 Home Run Hitters

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"****!" was my answer to CD's question.

quote:

Question: if the majority of the greatest players in the game were using them, how tempting would it be for a guy making $1100 a month to use them? If the above list is an accurate sample, is it possible to say that at least 70% of all players were using them?

Easily..That percentage is probably higher and they're likely on stuff that's not detectible.

I'm one who believes that they didn't stop taking PEDs. They're just one step ahead of the testing.

I believe that 50-75% of all players used some sort of PE substance.
They will use every excuse in the book to explain away their usage.
In all of this cat and mouse game Jose Canseco is the only one to come clean. Whether his reasons are noble or not he has been truthful. Most of the other offenders have looked like jacka@@es once confronted.

Bottom line is the sport has taken a hit with all levels of participants (players, union, owners) equally guilty of letting it go on for so long.

TR, it says Top 10 since 1980.

Also, keep in mind, most of those guys used stuff that was not illegal and not banned by MLB, so they were doing nothing wrong at the time.

I agree, there has to be a line, but where is it drawn? Is taking protien powder over the edge? Is eating tons of protien rich food going over the top? I think now these guys can't even use stuff that our doctors would give us to recover from an injury. Hell, they can't even take some stuff to get over a cold because it may be on the banned list.

I was thinking the other day - Should all MLB players carry around an updated list of banned substances every time they go to the doctor so that they don't get prescribed something illegal?

Like I said, "steriod" use should be monitored. But sometimes I think it has been taken to an overboard level.

CD, A guy making $1100 a month couldn't afford them.

TRHit, **** since 1980 ****

Zwolf, I think you're right, players know those percentages are close, and now some are ahead of the testing technology.

Fill, athletes (not all athletes) in all sports have been doing something to make themselves better players since they started getting PAID to play. Whether it was something to relieve pain, get stronger, get more energy or stamina, or breath better, etc...

When did public opinion change about it? Nobody cared when hockey players would mega dose on decongestants because they felt it sharpened their senses, or when a football player gets a cortisone shot to play through pain, or a fighter saturates his sinuses with Afrin to get more air later in a fight...

And how come TRhit ISN'T medicated more?

Mike adn Mike this morning read an email from a FAA pilot---they have drug restrictions just like MLB and his solution is simple---the FAA has their list of MD's ---he goes to them and them only

Why cannot MLB certify certain medical people to attend to and prescribe drugs for players? Bet the union won't allow it

While the continuing drama at the Major league level saddens me, what really worries me is the proliferation of these drugs down into the colleges and high schools. While I don't have any first hand knowledge, the rumors that go around are extremely strong - and where there is smoke there is almost certainly some fire. Since there is no testing in High Schools - and college testing is not across all of college baseball - there really are few constraints on the players other than a moral compass, a fear of the law and money.

Major Leaguers like Manny will buy the "real" drug and get good advice on how to take it. HS and College kids probably don't have the resources to ensure that they are getting a "legitimate" drug and are on their own as to how to use it. As a result, I am anticipating that in a few years, the horror stories will start to unfold.

08Dad expresses my concern as well, in addition to the damage it does to My Game. (I don't much care about the NBA, NFL, and NHL; I'll leave the outrage there to their fans).

Somebody always brings up the other drugs used. Decongestants, greenies, caffeine, cortizone, etc may or may not provide an instant, short-lived boost. (They also may or may not jangle the nerves and response time. Or mask an injury enough to play, and therefore give it the chance to get worse.) What they don't do is make a player better over the long haul.

PEDs/HGH/Steroids build muscle and strength, offer stamina over a long season, and speed recovery time. They fundamentally change the game and engineer players that will perform better than the clean players.

The two are incomparable. Like misdemeanors and felonies.

And bballman, Vincent laid out a drug policy in 1991 AND the use of controlled substances without a legit script is and has been for some decades against Federal Law, so the "not banned by MLB" is a canard. Further, a player can get a Theraputic Use Exemption for substances on the list given a provable medical reason. No excuses.

bballman, 7-2 PO, Orlando

I tried to start this very discussion in it's on thread:

Are we to just assume that the vast majority of players (pitchers included!!!) juiced in some way, shape, or form in the 1990's and 2000's???

Where is the line drawn between B shots, creatine, andro, steroids, HGH???

Who determines what that line is???

Cold medications??? Natural supplements???

Just to add to what the OP said, I heard someone on ESPN last night say that 20 years from now, it is quite possible that:

The top 2 HR hitters of all time will not be in the HOF (Rodriguez, Bonds)
AND
6 of the top 12 HR hitters of all time will not be in the HOF (Rodriguiz, Bonds, Sosa, McGuire, Palmeiro, Ramirez)

quote:

Originally posted by ClevelandDad:
Here are the top 10 homerun hitters since 1980 and some notable quotes:

Barry Bonds 762 (I didn't "knowingly" take them)
Ken Griffey, Jr. 613 ****
Sammy Sosa 609 (I don't understand English)
Mark McGwire 583 (I don't want to talk about the past)
Rafael Palmeiro 569 (I thought I was getting a B-12 injection)
Alex Rodriguez 553 (I couldn't handle the pressure of playing in Texas)
Jim Thome 545 ****
Manny Ramírez 533 (My doctor inadvertantly prescribed a female hormone that steroid users routinely use when they are coming off a steroid cycle)
Frank Thomas 521 ****
Gary Sheffield 500 (I thought steroids were something that people had injected into their butts)

Question: if the majority of the greatest players in the game were using them, how tempting would it be for a guy making $1100 a month to use them? If the above list is an accurate sample, is it possible to say that at least 70% of all players were using them?

Hank Aaron
Babe Ruth
Willie Mays
Frank Robinson
Harmon Killebrew
Reggie Jackson
Mike Schmidt
Mickey mantle
Jimmy Fox
Willie McCovey
Ted Williams
Ernie Banks
Eddie Matthews
Mel Ott
Eddie Murray

How many of these guys took greenies?

GGP2hit,

The way I see it. These athletes risk their health and their lives now to perform their jobs in a sport that entertains us. At this point, they know the risks involved, they make their decisions, and roll the dice.

I loved it when Big Mac and Sammy were pound out HR's together like Mantle and Marris. I love it when Lance Armstrong cracks opens that Champagne bottle in France. I loved to see Clemens pitch well beyond the years the Red Sox thought he could.

That's my opinion. Not my job to judge them.

RJM,

Exactly! Who decides that one generations performance enhancement drug of choice is worse than another generations. For anyone to think that the best athletes of every generation were not looking for an edge is foolish, naive, and seeing sports through rose-colored glasses. Science advances. Media is there to cover you when you go to take a p*%s, and its on the internet and television fifteen minutes later. 50 years ago, the media was much cozier with the players. They would have never, and didn't, report the stuff about the athletes that they do today.

And to what 7-2 PO said, he is apparently in the majority, because TV ratings, attendance, and $$$ clearly indicate that this is a much bigger issue with the media than it is with the fans. They make their feelings known every day by watching, attending, and spending their hard-earned money.

RJM, I would venture to say that most, if not all did. I know a guy who played for 15 years in the 50's & 60's. He has often talked about taking greenies and anything else that would help improve their game. He also said that if the stuff they have now a days was around then, they would have taken that too.

Look at Mickey Mantle. He was an out and out alcoholic. He would come to many games either drunk or hungover. I'm sure part of the reason he did this was to mask the pain in his knees.

I don't know if those guys back then were as pure as we would like to think. Technology was just not there. There was also not the scrutiny that there is now a days.

And Orlando, I won't dispute that there was a policy developed in 1991. I'm just saying that much of what these guys took was not illegal, and was not on a banned list, so the athletes were not doing anything wrong at the time. Some of the stuff that is on the list now could be bought over the counter at GNC. Some of it their doctors did prescribe. Not all, but some are being persecuted for something that is banned now, but not when they were doing it.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by bballman:
TR, it says Top 10 since 1980.

Also, keep in mind, most of those guys used stuff that was not illegal and not banned by MLB, so they were doing nothing wrong at the time.

bbman,

Federal law placed anabolic steroids in Schedule III of the Controlled Substances Act (CSA) as of February 27, 1991.

Which of the ones listed do you think used stuff that was not illegal. Since 1991 it has been a Federal Felony to possess anabolic steriods. Just becasue MLB did not ban doesn't mean it wasn't illegal.

Just becasue McGuire let the reporters see the bottle of Andro doesn't mean that's what he was taking. If it was, I bet he'd talk about it. Palmiero tested for Stanozolol a/k/a Winstrol. Its an anobolic and illegal since 91. Sheffield and Bonds used a desgner anabolic. A-Rod admitted to anabolic use if I'm not mistaken.

So who on the list used something that was not illegal or at least an indicator of illegal anabolic use such as Manny's recent test?

That's kind of my point ShawnLee. Anobolic Steroids and Performance Enhancing Drugs are all lumped into the same category. Never said there weren't guys doing anobolic steroids then or now. I'm saying that some of what has come up has been involving substances that were not illegal or banned. Is that not true? Are there things on the list now that you could buy over the counter at the time? Are there things Dr.'s prescribe athletes that could get them a positive drug test that aren't necessarily a PED? Absolutely.

Perhaps the hairsplitters amongst us would go back and read 08Dad's post. Where we on a proball fan site, I'd suggest this discussion was mild. But we're on a baseball parent-and-player site, populated with familes working to get a player to the next level.

If you prefer an Everybody's Doing It, a GNC-Greenie-Steroid Are All Much The Same, it's Just An Entertainment stance, that is your perogative. Just as it would be your perogative to take a similiar stance with your son ove some other endeavor in life. But as it stands now, hs and college players are tacitly encouraged to injest whatever chemical will make up for deficiencies or enhance their talents in order to make that next level. And your son is one of those players.

Should your son be fortunate enought to play pro ball, remember his chances of a day in MLB is at 5%. And shrinking (pun intended) as long as those chemicals promote users over clean players and prolong the careers of those that use.

I'm always amazed at the lack of universal outrage here about an issue that so personally effects our sons.

Point well taken Orlando. While I make philisophical points in my posts, I would NEVER encourage my son to take any kind of PED's.

I don't even like the idea of him partaking in any kind of protien shakes (he never has). Hits a little close to the steriod issue for me. I guess it's the difference between taking personal responsibility and being regulated to do something. When it comes down to it, I am an adamant less government kind of guy and this attitude has probably leaked over into this issue a little.

Your point is well taken though. When it comes down to a personal issue, I would take a much more outraged stance.

Point well taken here as well Orlando. And I have a very strong stance with my son, and he has a very good understanding of what's going on. The more names that come out, the more disenchanted he becomes with all of them. Nothing will change that. He really liked Manny's swing, even though he hits lefty. He has studied it and worked on his mechanics. First words out his mouth when I get home yesterday-"That sucks."
I instruct kids on hitting and like to show and break down Manny's swing for them. Can't do that anymore.
Second thing out of son's mouth-"Think Pujols did too?" That is a big problem now too. In a lot of minds-they are all guilty by association. If you are good in the "Steroids Era", a lot of people are getting so jaded that, well, you must have done it but just didn't get caught. It's really a shame.

I've tried to throw some things out there for people to think about. Don't get me wrong. Again, I am not condoning or advocating any of this. But I'm just really troubled by the crucification of these guys, while holding past generations, particularly the 60's, 70's, & 80's, up as pillars of a clean sport.

Anyone who knows players, ex-players, been around, etc., knows the deal. For all these talking heads and hacks to villify these guys and hold those in the past up as saints is a joke and an insult to a our intelligence.

If you have noticed, as this has gone on the last couple years, very few current players, managers, GM's, etc. have said a cross word about another player when a new name comes out. And not many of these saints from the past have really engaged in mudslinging either. Sure, with both the past and present players, there are always a few of the self-rightous mouthpieces that got something to say. But the vast majority of players, both past and present, when asked, choose their words carefully.

It's like mother always said---those that live in glass houses should not throw stones.

Orlando,

I share your outrage and I also understand how it impacts our sons opportunity to make it to MLB. Performance enhancing drugs are a big problem, and your point regarding them extending careers that otherwise would end and open a spot for an up and coming prospect is not lost on me.

It is odd that the outrage is not shared by all on this site. I am a proponent of testing, to do whatever can be done to clean up the game, at every level. Playing organized baseball at the HS level and beyond is a privilege, not a right.

I'd like to think that the majority of the kids we see each year are NOT on steroids. That includes those who are first round picks. I also am dumb enough to think MOST minor league players are NOT on steroids. These days, if they are they're gonna get caught sooner or later.

I also don't believe that the majority of Major League stars that have been found using steroids, used steroids before they got to the Big Leagues. It was the Big Leagues where steroids became most popular.

Therefore, I believe that MOST Major League players got there by talent rather than drugs. I still think that the right players (for the most part) made it to the top. What happened after that is another story. It is possible that some stayed there longer than they might have.

This whole steroid era makes me sick. However, what really bothers me the most is that the only ones being punished and exposed are the players. The most competitive people on earth, trying to do anything they can to be successful. What an easy target! What an easy target to throw all the blame at.

I'm all for cleaning up this mess. All for the facts coming out. Right now there are many hiding in the woodwork or claiming they didn't know anything and they're not all players! Some of the biggest proponents are now acting like these players are all to blame.

Winning can become a disease! There are people who would risk their health, even their life, to win a game. Surely some of those same people are willing to risk taking PEDs. Leadership needs to keep these things out of the game. Leadership failed!

quote:

This whole steroid era makes me sick. However, what really bothers me the most is that the only ones being punished and exposed are the players.

Not just the players, it's just the big name players. You think they are going to go back and expose a guy that's not a household name that took them? I don't think so. It's just the big name guys who are taking the hit because that's where the biggest stories are.

bballman,

You Know! That's a very good point!

And where is uber agent Boras in all this?

One of the NY papers ran a column this morning listing a number of players involved with roids that were or are all Boras clients---interesting to read---also we have not heard from Boras in the Manny situation---it sure makes one wonder

And how about the remaining names on the Mitchell list?

quote:

eadership needs to keep these things out of the game. Leadership failed!

Yep, thats my view on it too.

quote:

Originally posted by bballman:

quote:

This whole steroid era makes me sick. However, what really bothers me the most is that the only ones being punished and exposed are the players.

Not just the players, it's just the big name players. You think they are going to go back and expose a guy that's not a household name that took them? I don't think so. It's just the big name guys who are taking the hit because that's where the biggest stories are.

YEP! Tabloid media at its finest......or worst.

And PG STAFF---Selig, owners, GMs, look right into the camaras every time feigning ignorance. It's disgusting!

quote:

Originally posted by 7-2 PO:
GGP2hit,

The way I see it. These athletes risk their health and their lives now to perform their jobs in a sport that entertains us. At this point, they know the risks involved, they make their decisions, and roll the dice.

I loved it when Big Mac and Sammy were pound out HR's together like Mantle and Marris. I love it when Lance Armstrong cracks opens that Champagne bottle in France. I loved to see Clemens pitch well beyond the years the Red Sox thought he could.

That's my opinion. Not my job to judge them.

I agree with ya...They're entertainers and they're there to entertain me. Just go out and get the job done. Are they cheating? Of course they are but if most are doing it, the playing field is leveled. I could are less if they all do roids or not or what the roids will do to them down the road because it has no effect on me.

However, a parent of a minor leaguer who believes their kid is clean while others are moving on past them because of the juice might be a bit miffed.

That is my POV is that Pulos is the best player in the game...he puts up MVP stats every year and he says test me everyday if you want

quote:

I don't even like the idea of him partaking in any kind of protien shakes (he never has). Hits a little close to the steriod issue for me.

Based on what research or evidence? My son takes protein shakes. HIs mother started him on them. She's a personal trainer, nutritionist and a health freak. I guess I took PED's as a kid. My mother got me on Nutriment to gain weight after I grew.

I don't understand why PED's aren't more of an issue in football. No way, no how does a lineman get to 6'2", 325 just by eating and pushing weights while maintaining his athletic ability. I'm curoius how a friend's son gained eighty pounds (no visible fat) without growing in height over five years of college. He grew to his dad's playing size. But was dad's size natural?

RJM, nothing wrong with protien shakes. My wife tried to get son to drink them. He didn't like it and she kept pushing for him to try something else. I just felt weird about it. We're talking about taking something that increases performance on this topic. Bet the guys back in the day did not have protien drinks. Perfectly legal, over the counter, but could it be considered taking something to increase performance? I don't know. That comes under the question of where do you draw the line? If son wanted to have the shakes, I may not argue it, but I don't think I'm comfortable pushing him to do it.

bballman Nothing illegal about Protein shakes. Just not sure they are really necessary. Eating the right food is still the best method. go to mayo clinic.com and search protein shakes. You will see that they say they are really not necessary, not hurtful unless you are missing other things in your diet because you are relying on protein shake.


"As long as you're eating a healthy, balanced diet, adding extra protein — such as in the form of protein shakes — isn't necessary."

What about ovaltine that was considered a PED back when it first came out. That is how it was how it was advertised

Noone is persecuting anyone.

Remember - these poor guys - make millions per year - playing a game - and cheating and lying in order to do so.

Barry Bonds - Cheater and liar - and a bad one at that.
Sammy Sosa 609 - Cheater and liar
Mark McGwire 583 - Cheater and liar and bad actor
Rafael Palmeiro 569 - Cheater and really bad liar.
Alex Rodriguez 553 - Cheater and liar. One of the earliest of his kind.
Manny Ramírez 533 - Cheater and liar and just a really really dumb human being.
Gary Sheffield 500 - Cheater and liar.

Noone is persecuting them - noone is trying to take the tens of millions of dollars they have made by cheating and lying. They have the money and they can keep it. They pulled off the Sting and got away with it. Thats life.

Its just that many of us want them to go away. Just disappear. Now.

The game will be better for everyone if they do.