True Five Tool Player

I'm not a coach, much less longtime, but it seems to me that a 5 tool player is one who excels compared to his peers at each of the tools. So, in MLB, we could rank every current player by their throwing ability. We'd make a similar list for hitting for average, etc. Then we would find the players who are in the top 10% of all 5 lists. That's a 5 tool player at the MLB level, in my opinion. Such players are extremely rare.

Looking at lower levels of ball, players who are in the top 10% of their peers for all 5 tools are more common. That's because the pool that makes up the peer list is much bigger, and compared to MLB, all the added players are less talented. In fact, within one Little League, there may be several kids who excel comparatively in each tool.

If you're thinking of HS seniors specifically, it may make sense to compare players to the pool of college players, i.e. their projected peers at the next level.

Here's another thought. Obviously pitchers don't qualify. At the MLB level, I can't think of any catchers, first or second basemen, or shortstops that fit the bill. Third base? Easy to think of 4 tool players at third, and maybe there are some that also have speed. But I think the outfield is where we're most likely to find a 5 tool player.

If you consider 6.9 five tool speed, there's a kid from our LL who's a 2010 rated a 10 by Perfect Game. He's also in the 90's as a pitcher. We had a five tooler in our area a few years ago who's now at AAA with the Royals.

I guess one example of what I'm getting at is that I lived in the same town as Ronnie Gant when he was a young player and even though he became a 30-30 guy in the majors, in high school I don't feel he was a true five tool guy. He could run very well and hit great with tremendous bat speed. Arm was pretty strong at that time but he played middle infield with a lot of second base. I don't feel he was an outstanding fielder when compared to the better high school infielders. He did have good power especially for his size but you don't adjust the tool up just due to a guy's size. In other words I feel he was probably a 3.5 to maybe 4 tool guy in high school. Still an outstanding prospect then.

There are very few 5 tool players in MLB not to mention college and HS

You know them when you see them. You might think you have seen one but when you do see one then you realize the first guy wasn't.

The term 5 - tool is a relative term. A 5 tool HS kid probably won't be in college and a 5 tool college kid probably won't be in pro ball.

In HS you are going to find a kid in a small area who is the strongest at all 5 but when he gets to college that area just got bigger and there is someone who's probably a little better and the area gets a lot bigger in pro ball.

Plus just because you don't have the strongest arm or fastest speed doesn't mean you are not a 5 tool player. You can be 5 tool without being the best in any of the areas but you don't find many of them to begin with.........but when you see them then you know they are a 5 tool player.

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Originally posted by TRhit:
There are very few 5 tool players in MLB not to mention college and HS

I'm assuming the original poster means relative to his peers as a college/pro prospect. It's probably not to hard for several of the knowledgeable people to figure out who's the AAA player (hint: Royals AAA ... I live in PA ... dad participates on the board sometimes). He was considered a potential five tool player when drafted 5th.

Future 5-tooler.

Cameron Maybin.

Go Marlins!

This is an interesting question. Is 6.9 a qualifying speed? Just what would be the threshold for each tool?

What is the top 5% in each tool in MLB?

Isn't a tool a MLB average as opposed to below average? I mean, if a MLB player has MLB average speed, MLB average Arm, Batting average, Slugging and fielding then isn't he a 5 tool player?

Or, are we saying that a MLB player needs "Plus" Speed, "Plus" arm, hitting for average/power and fielding, to be a 5 tool player?

There are plenty of power hitters that do not hit for average and can't run or field (as a "plus" tool) at the MLB average level.

It seems to me that 5 tools refer to MLB averages. That is hard enough without having to be a "plus" in each category.

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Originally posted by Three Bagger:
Just wondering, how often do you guys that coach or anyone that goes to a lot of high school games see what would be considered to be a "real" five tool guy. Most of us know what those tools are but what is your idea of the minimum level of power or speed that has to go with excellent fielding, hitting, and throwing ability at the high shool level to be a true five tool player. It seems most of the very best players fall a little short in at least one or two of the tools that would eliminate them from thisdesignation. I would be especially interested to hear from long time coaches.

I would say over .400 average, 5 or more HRs, 6.8 or better 60yd. dash along with 80mph from position and .950 or better fielding % would be considered a 5 tool player.

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Originally posted by Rob Kremer:
This is an interesting question. Is 6.9 a qualifying speed? Just what would be the threshold for each tool?

What is the top 5% in each tool in MLB?

While it's not blazing fast, it's good speed. It's under seven seconds. Plus the kid is only a junior. He might lower his time.

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Originally posted by floridafan:
Isn't a tool a MLB average as opposed to below average? I mean, if a MLB player has MLB average speed, MLB average Arm, Batting average, Slugging and fielding then isn't he a 5 tool player?

Or, are we saying that a MLB player needs "Plus" Speed, "Plus" arm, hitting for average/power and fielding, to be a 5 tool player?

There are plenty of power hitters that do not hit for average and can't run or field (as a "plus" tool) at the MLB average level.

It seems to me that 5 tools refer to MLB averages. That is hard enough without having to be a "plus" in each category.

I think 20+ SB, 20+ HR, .280 or better average would be considered a 5 tool player if they are in the infield since I don't believe there are any infielders that don't have plus gloves and plus arms. I think there are a few middle infielders that fit that bill, Pedroia, Jeter, Rollins just to name a few. I don't think there are nearly as many outfielders with plus arms as there were when I was growing up though.

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Originally posted by powertoallfields:

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Originally posted by Three Bagger:
Just wondering, how often do you guys that coach or anyone that goes to a lot of high school games see what would be considered to be a "real" five tool guy. Most of us know what those tools are but what is your idea of the minimum level of power or speed that has to go with excellent fielding, hitting, and throwing ability at the high shool level to be a true five tool player. It seems most of the very best players fall a little short in at least one or two of the tools that would eliminate them from thisdesignation. I would be especially interested to hear from long time coaches.

I would say over .400 average, 5 or more HRs, 6.8 or better 60yd. dash along with 80mph from position and .950 or better fielding % would be considered a 5 tool player.

Wouldn't stats be a function of the level of competition? A kid isn't a five tooler just because he's the big fish in a small pond.

So, Power, you are of the mind that the tools need to be "plus" tools as opposed to at a minimum "average" tools. Is that right?

So a 5 tool player is plus in each tool. What are MLB averages for each tool?

There are the 5 tools but lately I've seen an "80 Compete" rating attached to a players profile.

Anyone else heard of it?

Is this new?

I think Coach2709 hit it right on the head with his opinion that the 5 tool guys decrease as you get higher and higher up the baseball ladder. In my youth, Willie Mays was a 5 tooler for about the first 15 years of his career, and the Mick for maybe the first 10 or 12 years of his in the majors. We all know the Upton kids were 5 toolers in high school but so far I would say only 5 tool "potential" in the Show. Even arguably the top amateur prospect in the US, Bryce Harper lacks one of the tools somewhat--Speed. Not that it matters because he catches a lot of the time and his other tools are off the chart! I think 5 tools in high school are even a function of competition faced and size of the ball parks some guys play in. If you hit 10 or 12 HRs in a bandbox you probably don't have real power where your HRs are going 370-430 feet. I think we could all agree Mr. Harper has the tool of Power to the extreme. But is a high school guy who rates 40 across the board on the 20 to 80 scale a true five tool player. I don't think so. I have also seen the tool of speed where for some reason it just does not translate to the baseball field with some guys.

While we have always referred to a Five tool player, it appears in reality that now there is a 6th tool. Scouts are now adding baseball acumen or baseball smarts as a tool. Not quite sure how they quantify this but it is definetly one of the tools. We were at a one day skills evaluation and this was brought up as the 6th tool.

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I think 5 tools in high school are even a function of competition faced and size of the ball parks some guys play in. If you hit 10 or 12 HRs in a bandbox you probably don't have real power where your HRs are going 370-430 feet.

Stats aren't tools. While stats may cause a scout to drop in on a game, they look past the stats and quantify the physical tools.

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Originally posted by floridafan:
So, Power, you are of the mind that the tools need to be "plus" tools as opposed to at a minimum "average" tools. Is that right?

IMO, yes.

So what would "plus" numbers be? 20+ HR, .320 BA, 6.7 60, .900 Fielding, 85MPH form position?

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Originally posted by RJM:

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Originally posted by powertoallfields:

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Originally posted by Three Bagger:
Just wondering, how often do you guys that coach or anyone that goes to a lot of high school games see what would be considered to be a "real" five tool guy. Most of us know what those tools are but what is your idea of the minimum level of power or speed that has to go with excellent fielding, hitting, and throwing ability at the high shool level to be a true five tool player. It seems most of the very best players fall a little short in at least one or two of the tools that would eliminate them from thisdesignation. I would be especially interested to hear from long time coaches.

I would say over .400 average, 5 or more HRs, 6.8 or better 60yd. dash along with 80mph from position and .950 or better fielding % would be considered a 5 tool player.

Wouldn't stats be a function of the level of competition? A kid isn't a five tooler just because he's the big fish in a small pond.

I agree, the competition level is certainly going to come into play and I am only going by the level of competition my Son's team plays against (which is the best in our area).

RJM you're right about the stats not being tools, I just think some people confuse the fact that they saw a kid hit a lot of HRs and think he has the "tool" of power. I have to keep going back to the Majors for examples but I saw a scout quoted as saying Vlad Guererro's(spelling) arm was considered an 80 with Ichiro's considered a 75 to maybe 80. In high school it would be probably very rare to find 60's across the board. Chalkline, I have heard that also about the sixth tool. I tend to agree with the being "plus" in all five catagories as being a requirement to being a five tool player even in high school. I just think the term is used very loosely by some TV announcers and others.

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Originally posted by floridafan:
So what would "plus" numbers be? 20+ HR, .320 BA, 6.7 60, .900 Fielding, 85MPH form position?

Are you talking about High School or MLB? For High School, I'd say 10+ HRs, .500+ avg., 6.7 60, .980 fielding. Until you get to pro ball, I think scouts are only going to be interested in + tools and not average tools. I think for a pro to be considered to have a given tool, they need to be above the league average for that catagory. + tools for MLB, IMO, would be ones that finish in the top 10% of the league in that catagory.

When a HS player puts up 10+ HRs .500 avarage as a junior or earlier, assuming he plays an average of 20-35 games in a typical season, makes first-team whatever, he'd have a tough time repeating those numbers the next year because he'd be intentionally walked so many times, his head would spin and he'd have to make sure he has he plate discipline because he won't be seeing too many fat pitches to wallop and could get frustrated if he don't.

Remember guys that such flat statistical numbers such as .980 fielding average really don't tell you a lot about a players ability. Many of the very best tooled fielders actually make more errors than other less gifted guys because their range factor allows them many more chances. I think we have all seen first basemen that were statues and make one or two errors a season, while a Keith Hernandez type had unparalleled range yet might have a lower fielding average. I believe Ripkin made only 4 errors at short one season but as one who saw them both in their prime I felt Ozzy Smith had the greater fielding tools. My original post is relating to high school but I feel it is often easier to pluck examples to use out of the major leagues.

To answer your question, I see very few. Maybe a kid a year that I would consider a five tool player. My definition is above average tools.

Micah Owings (Reds) was a 5 tooler back in high school and college(Ga. Tech/Tulane) easily.

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very best tooled fielders actually make more errors than other less gifted guys because their range factor allows them many more chances.

That really shouldn't be a factor. Scoring should be based on the 'average' player making the play. The player with extraordinary range shouldn't be penalized for muffing something the 'average' player couldn't even attempt. It's a 'hit'. However, most scorekeepers will also score a 'hit' for the ball that rolls past the statue at first.

A good fielder doesn't necessarily have fewer errors, they just allow fewer hits...

IMHO, a player with good stats doesn't necessarily have good tools but a player with good tools will have good stats.

There was recently a huge spread in a Chicago paper going over why Alexei Ramirez is a five tool player. He hit over .290 (much higher as a starter, since he started the season on the bench), hit 21 homers (in 480 ABS), is very fast although he isn't a great basestealer, has a cannon for an arm, and is an extremely talented defender who is moving to shortstop this year, his natural position.

We had a kid in our area that I started calling "Mr. Five Tool" when he was 9. I begged and begged him to join our travel team for years, but he declined, preferring to play multiple sports.

His lack of playing experience held him back for years, and he only played JV ball through sophomore year.

Jr. year, he hurt his knee in a preseason game and missed the entire varsity season.

Sr. year, fully recovered, he hoped to get interest in football as a running back -- by this time not only very fast (6.4 in the 60) but also very muscular and powerful. Unfortunately our HS football team stunk and he got very few looks.

He won a starting OF job in the spring and as the season progressed, he got hot and really produced at the plate big time, both average and power. He had trouble stealing because he did not read pitchers well, but the speed of course was still there, also when it came to chasing down flies in the gaps. He got to where diving catches were regular occurrences, so the glove was strong. The arm was a cannon, as many runners found out the hard way, including one at the plate in a state semifinal game that preserved a tie in a game we went on to win in extra innings. Now that I think of it, there was another similar assist to the plate in an earlier playoff game, too.

A few lines got put in the water by late May. He had a few local colleges start to follow him through HS playoffs and then Legion play. When someone who'd signed an NLI ended up not getting through admissions, one program offered him that guy's money as the replacement.

Better late than never, I suppose. I wouldn't advise folks to wait until late July, but in this case it worked out.

I understand he had a great fall and I'm looking forward to seeing how his career advances. All the tools are there -- just a question of getting immersed in baseball and really becoming a player.

But he is the only guy I've ever seen with that combination of talent.

BTW, good bloodlines. Uncle was a AAA guy. One of uncle's daughters (player's cousins) owns all the track records at their HS and some at UVA.

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Originally posted by zombywoof:
When a HS player puts up 10+ HRs .500 avarage as a junior or earlier, assuming he plays an average of 20-35 games in a typical season, makes first-team whatever, he'd have a tough time repeating those numbers the next year because he'd be intentionally walked so many times, his head would spin and he'd have to make sure he has he plate discipline because he won't be seeing too many fat pitches to wallop and could get frustrated if he don't.

I agree and it happened to one of our players last year.

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Originally posted by Three Bagger:
Remember guys that such flat statistical numbers such as .980 fielding average really don't tell you a lot about a players ability. Many of the very best tooled fielders actually make more errors than other less gifted guys because their range factor allows them many more chances. I think we have all seen first basemen that were statues and make one or two errors a season, while a Keith Hernandez type had unparalleled range yet might have a lower fielding average. I believe Ripkin made only 4 errors at short one season but as one who saw them both in their prime I felt Ozzy Smith had the greater fielding tools. My original post is relating to high school but I feel it is often easier to pluck examples to use out of the major leagues.

I agree, but if you get good numbers on a team that is known to play top competition, the scouts are going to come. Their job is to see past the numbers, but if you have the tools and don't produce, how many scouts do you think will be knocking down your door?

Throwing 90+ mph across the diamond or from the outfield is part of the 5 tool players arsenal . So the MLB average 60 yd time is 6.8 sec. , this gives you an idea of what a 5 tool player really is ! You don't have to be a 5 tool player to play in the bigs ! The majority of mlb players are not 5 tool guys ! Example is Manny Ramirez a 5 tool guy ? He's one of the biggest names in baseball (Superstar) right ?

Best 5 Tool Players:

1. Willie Mays
2. Alex Rodriguez
3. Mickey Mantle (Speed slowed after tearing his knee)

I think those are my top 3.

All the years I coached 17-18 year old players, I had one. His name was Tony Jackson. He was team captain and First Team All-ACC strong safety for Maryland the year they went to the Orange Bowl. He was drafted out of high school by Cleveland, but couldn't pass up a free ride to play college football. Injuries during his senior year thwarted attempts for pro football and baseball. He was absolutely phenomenal in all aspects of the game. Astros scout told me they would draft him in the 2nd round if he didn't have the football thing going.

One player in 300 over about 15 years.

A 5 tool player will be drafted #1 or first 10 picks in the draft normally , depending on the teams need .

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Originally posted by larrythompson:
All the years I coached 17-18 year old players, I had one. His name was Tony Jackson. He was team captain and First Team All-ACC strong safety for Maryland the year they went to the Orange Bowl. He was drafted out of high school by Cleveland, but couldn't pass up a free ride to play college football. Injuries during his senior year thwarted attempts for pro football and baseball. He was absolutely phenomenal in all aspects of the game. Astros scout told me they would draft him in the 2nd round if he didn't have the football thing going.

One player in 300 over about 15 years.

And if baseball gave out 24 full rides, he might have been a HOFer some day.

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Originally posted by Nutitupnplay:
A 5 tool player will be drafted #1 or first 10 picks in the draft normally , depending on the teams need .

Unless the teams at the top of the draft don't want to deal with a certain agent.