powertoallfields, I have to disagree with your statement that all Major League infielders are plus fielders. Alfonso soriano and Robinson Cano are just ttwo examples of present or former 2nd basemen who are no plus fielders when compared to their peers. Truthfully I don't feel Alexie Ramirez of the Sox is a 5 tool player do to more advanced defensive parameters besides fielding average showing he is not that great a defensive second baseman. He does make a lot of spectacular plays that inflates people's opinion of him. Also, a .290 hitter who has a .318 OBP at age 27 means he's really not in anyway a plus hitter. Twenty-one HRs is solid for an infielder but not plus from an overall perspective for major league hitters. Of course I'm of the group that feels you must be plus in all five catagories.
quote:Originally posted by Three Bagger:
powertoallfields, I have to disagree with your statement that all Major League infielders are plus fielders. Alfonso soriano and Robinson Cano are just ttwo examples of present or former 2nd basemen who are no plus fielders when compared to their peers. Truthfully I don't feel Alexie Ramirez of the Sox is a 5 tool player do to more advanced defensive parameters besides fielding average showing he is not that great a defensive second baseman. He does make a lot of spectacular plays that inflates people's opinion of him. Also, a .290 hitter who has a .318 OBP at age 27 means he's really not in anyway a plus hitter. Twenty-one HRs is solid for an infielder but not plus from an overall perspective for major league hitters. Of course I'm of the group that feels you must be plus in all five catagories.
Cano has a .982 career fielding %, I would call that + skills. Soriano didn't survive at 2nd base, but he was still a .970% fielder which, IMO, is borderline + skill. Joe Morgan, argueably one of the best 2nd basemen ever only had a .981%.
Power, no professional organization relies on fielding average to determine who is a plus fielder. Sabermaticians have come up with many new and better waysto determine this such as Range factor,etc. You can have a great fielding average if you are a statue as I said in a previous post or don't make any difficult plays. The best fielders often don't have the highest fielding percentage. An example was Andrew Jones in his prime. He was getting many more putouts than the average center fielder but didn't necessarily lead in fielding percentage every year. Fielding percentage as the main tellall about fielding is as obsolete as batting average is about telling how good a hitter is. The Yankees are down on Cano somewhat because of the plays he doesn't make more than the plays he does. Watch him repeatedly and you will see that his mind is somewhere else often.
quote:Originally posted by Three Bagger:
Power, no professional organization relies on fielding average to determine who is a plus fielder. Sabermaticians have come up with many new and better waysto determine this such as Range factor,etc. You can have a great fielding average if you are a statue as I said in a previous post or don't make any difficult plays. The best fielders often don't have the highest fielding percentage. An example was Andrew Jones in his prime. He was getting many more putouts than the average center fielder but didn't necessarily lead in fielding percentage every year. Fielding percentage as the main tellall about fielding is as obsolete as batting average is about telling how good a hitter is. The Yankees are down on Cano somewhat because of the plays he doesn't make more than the plays he does. Watch him repeatedly and you will see that his mind is somewhere else often.
What are the parameters for receiving a gold glove? I think + skills are in the eye of the beholder. I've talked with several College Coaches that just want guys that have the ability to make the routine play 100% of the time. If they get a great play every so often, so be it.
I will give you that at one time Chuck Knoblock wasn't a plus fielder. He couldn't hit the side of a barn with a throw to save his life, but when he was Drafted, he had the skills.
I don't think that plus skills are necessarily measured by stats. If a player in hs has a plus skill, lets say power, he more than likley won't be pitched to very often. this happened to a kid in Jersey who had 6-8 HR his senior year after having 15-20 as a junior. He was drafted in first round a few years ago.
If you have plus tool people will notice.
Ryan Howard has a minus fielding tool and just signed for $54M due to only one PLUS tool.
Many others in MLB making a ton of money for one plus tool.
If you have plus tool people will notice.
Ryan Howard has a minus fielding tool and just signed for $54M due to only one PLUS tool.
Many others in MLB making a ton of money for one plus tool.
Power, Don't get me wrong, as an Astro fan I would take A. Ramirez in a heartbeat over Matsui at 2nd or the present Tejada at SS, I just don't agree with the Chitown newspaper that he's a five tool player in the Major Leagues. Don't rely too heavily on Gold Gloves as they are a known joke in the baseball community--Palmero wins one playing 20 something games one year, Jeter wins a couple recently when he is by every parameter a sub average fielding shortstop, cannot get to balls to his left that even average major league shortstops get to. Torii Hunter wins gold gloves with his spectacular plays but its making all the plays that make Granderson and Sizemore the far superior centerfielders. I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree on this one aspect of what makes a five tool player.
3bagger,
No, I don't even know what the parameters of getting a gold glove are, I was just wondering if anyone here knew. You sure have some tough standards for + skills if you don't consider Jeter or Hunter as having + fielding skills. That's okay, I have no problem with setting high standards. I'm just glad you aren't the guy that decides whether I get a raise or not!
No, I don't even know what the parameters of getting a gold glove are, I was just wondering if anyone here knew. You sure have some tough standards for + skills if you don't consider Jeter or Hunter as having + fielding skills. That's okay, I have no problem with setting high standards. I'm just glad you aren't the guy that decides whether I get a raise or not!
Trying to think of some other 5-tool MLB guys to add to the list.
How could you overlook Roberto Clemente?
Dave Winfield
Dale Murphy (in his prime)
Andre Dawson
Vladimir Guerrero (when he first came up -- before the knees went stiff on him)
Andruw Jones (how soon we forget -- before he ate his way out of MLB)
Roberto Alomar
Here are some guys I know had many tools, and may have had them all but in some cases I just don't know:
Hank Aaron (arm?)
Jackie Robinson (arm?)
Ted Williams (speed? arm?)
Joe Dimaggio (speed? arm?)
Barry Bonds (arm?)
Honus Wagner maybe?
And there were some who had the tools, but never seemed to get to the level of performance that was projected for them, e.g., Cesar Cedeno, Eric Davis come to mind.
How could you overlook Roberto Clemente?
Dave Winfield
Dale Murphy (in his prime)
Andre Dawson
Vladimir Guerrero (when he first came up -- before the knees went stiff on him)
Andruw Jones (how soon we forget -- before he ate his way out of MLB)
Roberto Alomar
Here are some guys I know had many tools, and may have had them all but in some cases I just don't know:
Hank Aaron (arm?)
Jackie Robinson (arm?)
Ted Williams (speed? arm?)
Joe Dimaggio (speed? arm?)
Barry Bonds (arm?)
Honus Wagner maybe?
And there were some who had the tools, but never seemed to get to the level of performance that was projected for them, e.g., Cesar Cedeno, Eric Davis come to mind.
Roberto Clemente had a few tools
quote:Originally posted by Midlo Dad:
Trying to think of some other 5-tool MLB guys to add to the list.
How could you overlook Roberto Clemente?
Dave Winfield
Dale Murphy (in his prime)
Andre Dawson
Vladimir Guerrero (when he first came up -- before the knees went stiff on him)
Andruw Jones (how soon we forget -- before he ate his way out of MLB)
Roberto Alomar
Here are some guys I know had many tools, and may have had them all but in some cases I just don't know:
Hank Aaron (arm?)
Jackie Robinson (arm?)
Ted Williams (speed? arm?)
Joe Dimaggio (speed? arm?)
Barry Bonds (arm?)
Honus Wagner maybe?
And there were some who had the tools, but never seemed to get to the level of performance that was projected for them, e.g., Cesar Cedeno, Eric Davis come to mind.
Ted Williams speed? No.
Joe D. had it all.
I wouldn't say Bonds had a + arm, but it wasn't bad either.
1. Can you run faster than the average player? Can you run faster than the average player at your position? Athlete.
2. Do your outfield throws carry better than the other guys? Do they get to their destination quicker than the other average guys? Are the throws more consistently accurate?
3. Can you deliver the sweetspot consistently, on time, and can you hit to all fields when necessary better than the average player? Do you recognize a pitch better than the average hitter?
4. Can you drive the ball over the fence in all fields better than the average power hitter? Do you just have "pull power"?
5. Do you take better routes to the ball than the average player? Is your footwork better than the average player?
2. Do your outfield throws carry better than the other guys? Do they get to their destination quicker than the other average guys? Are the throws more consistently accurate?
3. Can you deliver the sweetspot consistently, on time, and can you hit to all fields when necessary better than the average player? Do you recognize a pitch better than the average hitter?
4. Can you drive the ball over the fence in all fields better than the average power hitter? Do you just have "pull power"?
5. Do you take better routes to the ball than the average player? Is your footwork better than the average player?