Two-way guy dilemma

Jim T. posted:

Here's the situation... A kid who is a 2016 is a D-1 in a major conference commit next year.  He is a two way guy with some MLB teams liking him as a pitcher and others as a hitter.  He's expected to do both next year in college which he knows is unique and special if he can do both successfully.  

Here's the problem.  The high school team has a new coach and this guy has a two man rotation.  Since his other two starters are PO's, he doesn't want to reduce their mound time because they can't play another position.  He uses the two-way guy as a reliever but that never happens because he can't get him in the pen to warm up.  It's the dumbest thing I think I've every seen.  No comparison either among the three pitchers.  

The kid talked to the coach and he's adamant they stick to the plan.  My suggestion is for the kid to play in a weekend men's league and get his innings there.  This is baseball socialism gone to the next level.  My question is what else can this kid do? What does he tell his college coaches or a scout if asked?  

 

"I play where the coach asks me.  Here is my summer schedule, I will pitch some there.  I will be really fresh!"

A major D1 commit with MLB interest...  this is a non-problem if not a blessing. 

I have a very talented freshman on our HS team this year, the most talented I've had that young.  He will be starting SS.  He is probably our second best P, behind a D1 commit and we have a big drop after that, not to mention this will be the first time we have several weeks that we play three games instead of two.  We need him in both spots.  I will try to use him very little as a P.  I'm not going to do that to a kid, particularly one that young that has so much promise and has the dream.  Parents and fans will think I'm an idiot.  Again.

Jim T. posted:

Here's the situation... A kid who is a 2016 is a D-1 in a major conference commit next year.  He is a two way guy with some MLB teams liking him as a pitcher and others as a hitter.  He's expected to do both next year in college which he knows is unique and special if he can do both successfully.  

Here's the problem.  The high school team has a new coach and this guy has a two man rotation.  Since his other two starters are PO's, he doesn't want to reduce their mound time because they can't play another position.  He uses the two-way guy as a reliever but that never happens because he can't get him in the pen to warm up.  It's the dumbest thing I think I've every seen.  No comparison either among the three pitchers.  

The kid talked to the coach and he's adamant they stick to the plan.  My suggestion is for the kid to play in a weekend men's league and get his innings there.  This is baseball socialism gone to the next level.  My question is what else can this kid do? What does he tell his college coaches or a scout if asked?  

 

I've seen more high school coaches that shouldn't be coaching.   As long as that particular coach doesn't jeopardize the kids health by pitching him too much I wouldn't worry about it.  He can still do bullpen sessions. 

Agree that there is no problem. In our state playing on a another team during the season is against the rules as well.

Stop worrying about the draft and play the game and do what is told. The coach should not have to change his plan for one guy. The coach won't ask and neither will the scouts. He can play in the summer to show off his skills. 

More than likely he will head off to college anyway.

If either PO starts to have arm issues they will use this player more. Does he want to play more to impress some mlb scouts in hopes of getting drafted?  If he's as good as you re implying coach will use him. No way he can go all HS season w only two starters.

he should be happy he's two way player. Unless he's stud I don't see a Freshman playing both at major D1. Usu you re behind a good Jr or Sr waiting you re  turn.

Agrree w others who say go along w coaches plan.  Kid needs to enjoy Sr yr experience, stay healthy and look into going to college during Summer to take class, condition, be seen by trainers/coaches. Wouldn't spend time playing in Summer unless scout has asked him when he can see him. I don't see a player who is high draft pick not playing much in HS. Also, didn't HS just start? What state r u in?  As season goes on things can change. 

"The dilemma" is having a player thinking he is also the Coach! Or that the team is him! 

You play where you're told. If the team wins what's the difference? A team is not about the needs of one player. I understand the unwarranted concern. My son could have been the top starter for his team. He was used as a position player and in relief. He warmed up between innings when his team was at bat. The team won the conference his junior and senior years. It's about the team.

There was some interest in my son as a pitcher. It came from his travel team. He was an innings eater in tournaments. He sometimes started mid week scout league games. There were enough important people in attendance when he two hit one of the top travel teams over 5 2/3rds.

It's hard to be a pitcher and a position player in college. I did it for two years. It's twice as much work. I was recruited as an outfielder. When the coach asked if there was a lefty who could come in and throw strikes I volunteered. I was adamant I ultimately wanted to be a position player. Being a projected reliever for a game cut into position playing time soph year.

What type of plan consists of 2 starting pitchers?Do you only play 16-20 games?

Jim T. posted:

Here's the situation... A kid who is a 2016 is a D-1 in a major conference commit next year.  He is a two way guy with some MLB teams liking him as a pitcher and others as a hitter.  He's expected to do both next year in college which he knows is unique and special if he can do both successfully.  

Here's the problem.  The high school team has a new coach and this guy has a two man rotation.  Since his other two starters are PO's, he doesn't want to reduce their mound time because they can't play another position.  He uses the two-way guy as a reliever but that never happens because he can't get him in the pen to warm up.  It's the dumbest thing I think I've every seen.  No comparison either among the three pitchers.  

The kid talked to the coach and he's adamant they stick to the plan.  My suggestion is for the kid to play in a weekend men's league and get his innings there.  This is baseball socialism gone to the next level.  My question is what else can this kid do? What does he tell his college coaches or a scout if asked?  

 

My son was in a similar position at HS as he was a SS/RHP.  I always felt (and still do to some extent) the pitching was my son's strongest asset over hitting and fielding.  HS coach had him as a starter at SS all four year of HS and would use him on occasion as a closer on the mound.  Son did not spend a lot of time in the pen.  And I was actually comfortable and happy about that in that I felt it kept his strong arm fresh and didn't worry about over use.  In his senior year before games, MLB scouts were constantly asking son and the coach when he was going to pitch so they could watch him.  Because son was used as a closer, coach would tell them which games son might be pitching in and sometimes the scouts would be disappointed when son was not put on the mound as anticipated.  I remember a playoff game where son was pulled off the field to start the next inning and as he warmed up there was over a dozen scout crowing around the bull pen to watch closely.  Son then went in for the last inning and got the save.  So, for that game all the scouts got to see him do pitch 1 inning and do warm-ups.  That seemed to be enough to get him drafted that June as a pitcher.  Since son an committed to a major D-1 school, he decided to go there instead of taking the MBL offer.  I thought he might be a 2-way player there too.  But the reality  of playing in a major conference is that it's not what the college coaches like to do.  So, his freshman year at college he started at SS and did a little bullpen work and even pitched a little during the fall games touching 94mhp and pitching better than more of the pitchers on the team.  But he never pitched again after that.  Son had decided that being a 2-way player was not important and wherever the coach wanted him, that's where he'd play and being a position player was something he preferred anyway since he didn't like the idea of being in a rotation where he's not involved in every game.

OK.   So, based on this experience, I'd say that this 2016 kid doesn't have to worry about  being a two way player and if he's really that good at playing a position and pitching, the coaches will use him where they need him most.  And as far as MBL . . .it's his senior year and the scouts probably already know whether they like him at a position or at pitching.  Most likely, he'll find out for sure this June.  If he focuses on doing his best and has a great year, his position in the draft could really be affected for the positive.   And if asked by coaches and scouts, he should tell them he loves doing both, but will do whatever a feels it best for him and the team.  Let them decide what he should do.   So, the kid doesn't have to worry about "what else he can do."  He's likely better off letting baseball take him wherever it does and that he does his best for whatever role a coach asks of him.  

proudhesmine posted:

What type of plan consists of 2 starting pitchers?Do you only play 16-20 games?

When my son was in high school they played twenty games over nine weeks. There were typically two games unless there were rain makeups. When the playoffs came around it took three starters to survive.

Sons HS team was allowed to play 35 games a season then tourn games. Way more than 2 starters. 

Why can't kid get warm up time between innings if he's coming in as reliever? Is team going 3 up and 3 down each inning?

There would be no way for that plan to work here either.We play 35+ games a season also.We have a huge problem bringing in a guy with more than the 8 warm ups most always.Its been a big problem the last 3 yrs. We go multiple weeks with 6 games in 7 days.That does not include any makeups.

Just as another example of how there is never just one way that works best for every individual.

Carlos Correa was a high school SS that we saw pitch once as a freshman, maybe sophomore.  Can't remember for sure, but know that he threw at least 90 mph or better.

By the time he was a junior he had the best arm we had ever seen from the infield.  He threw 97 mph across the infield with average effort.  After seeing that, we asked Carlos to get on the mound.  He politely said, no he isn't a pitcher and has no interest in pitching.

No beating around the bush, just decided he wasn't going to pitch and made it perfectly clear to future college coach and MLB scouting departments. Did it hurt him?  No, the Astros picked him with the very first over all pick in the draft. The second pick that year was Byron Buxton who was a two way in high school, mid 90s pitcher and outstanding athlete. He was drafted as an outfielder.

On the other hand, Zack Greinke was a two way guy in high school.  He concentrated most on hitting and playing the infield.  He would have always picked playing and hitting over being a pitcher, but he still pitched.  He was drafted in the first round and signed as a pitcher.  Now he is one of the best pitchers in the game and one of the best hitting pitchers as well.

Point is, there isn't always a right or wrong way to approach everything.

Interesting insight on this issue.  My 2017 son is C/RHP with a strong arm, and he has gotten mixed signals from various coaches and scouts about where he has a better opportunity to play college baseball.  So he attended the Stanford Catchers-Pitchers camps during the Holidays.  Stephen Strasburg was a guest speaker for the players one evening and one of the boys asked him a question about how to deal with the two-way dilemma.  Stephen gave a great answer:  "where does your HS team need you most?  It is ALWAYS about where your team needs you most.  There will be other opportunities to showcase your skills to college coaches, but play for your current coach and team first."  Stanford's pitching coach then added that usually the situation will sort it out once you get to college.  While it is nice to have the flexibility to do both, sooner or later, it becomes more obvious which is the best position to play. 

I agree with others who say this is a blessing in disguise for the kid to not have to worry about pitching much for his HS team.  HS season is over in a few months, so his arm should be in great shape after some rest.

I would say that if you throw mid 90s pitching is the safer option. There are plenty of dominant HS ( and sometimes even college ) hitters who don't hit well in pro ball. You can see things like power, batspeed and mechanics but you never know until a hitter has hit elite pitching.

on the other hand if you can throw 95 with some command and movement   you know that it will translate to every level.

on the other hand guys like josh Hamilton or Bryce Harper had big arms and still became dominant MLB hitters so it can be done.

but generally if you have a big fastball you are a pitcher first for most coaches and if you can bat a bat secondary and fielding comes distant third.

I also read that colleges prefer using good hitting pitchers as a dh or 1b on non pitching days to safe the arm and body.