Umpire error in Vandy game

As you give the situation, that's definitely wrong.

Would you see a difference between R1 advancing when the umpire signals ball three and the batter takes off anyway, and when the umpire signals ball 4 and mistakenly sends the runner?

Jimmy, I'm just a dad who wants to learn (even though son finished his college career this spring, I always figure I can learn something). I do not bash umpires, and after I posted, thought I could have phrased my title better. From reading this forum for several years, it just looked wrong to me.

In the particular case, I don't think the umpire signalled ball four. I think he called ball, runner took off, and he left him there initially, unitl UNC coach came out.

I don't think there is a difference, goes back to the oft repeated pharase of both teams responsible for knowing game situation. In either case, in my non umpire point of view, runner should be at second base, if defense didn't make a play and put him out.

And I maybe missed something on TV Saturday as well. But it surely looked to me as if they made the runner return to first.

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Originally posted by Jimmy03:
Would you see a difference between R1 advancing when the umpire signals ball three and the batter takes off anyway, and when the umpire signals ball 4 and mistakenly sends the runner?

Jimmy, what's the difference between signaling ball 3 and ball 4?

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Originally posted by yawetag:

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Originally posted by Jimmy03:
Would you see a difference between R1 advancing when the umpire signals ball three and the batter takes off anyway, and when the umpire signals ball 4 and mistakenly sends the runner?

Jimmy, what's the difference between signaling ball 3 and ball 4?

Just posing a question. Looking for opinions on when an umpire can "fix" a situation he caused. From what I've seen in the minors lately, fixes not in the rule book are being used at that level of pro ball.

I'm looking to see if others who work college ball have an opinion on this.

If the umpire is responsible for the batter (and runner) taking off on ball 3 by calling ball 4 instead (or announcing a 3-ball count when it is actually a 2-ball count,) it needs to be fixed.

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Originally posted by Matt13:
If the umpire is responsible for the batter (and runner) taking off on ball 3 by calling ball 4 instead (or announcing a 3-ball count when it is actually a 2-ball count,) it needs to be fixed.

Bingo.

Viva la difference!

A PU who erroneously calls ball 4 has erroneously awarded a base to the batter and R1. Both awards need to be reversed.

Thanks guys, so apparently PU actually called or indicated ball 4 in some manner (wasn't obvious from TV) and so R1 was sent back as well. All I wanted to know, a "reversible" error.

Jimmy,
Would the same hold true if umpire signals strike 3 (really only strike 2) with bases loaded two outs and R3 is tagged out at home?

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Originally posted by Gold Glove:
Jimmy,
Would the same hold true if umpire signals strike 3 (really only strike 2) with bases loaded two outs and R3 is tagged out at home?

He's not out, because the batter never legally became a runner.

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Originally posted by Matt13:

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Originally posted by Gold Glove:
Jimmy,
Would the same hold true if umpire signals strike 3 (really only strike 2) with bases loaded two outs and R3 is tagged out at home?

He's not out, because the batter never legally became a runner.

If the runner was physically tagged (and not home plate), then he's out. It's up to everyone to know the situation.

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If the runner was physically tagged (and not home plate), then he's out. It's up to everyone to know the situation.

So there's a double standard here?

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Originally posted by Bulldog 19:

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If the runner was physically tagged (and not home plate), then he's out. It's up to everyone to know the situation.

So there's a double standard here?

Nope.....if you would PM me an address, I'll mail you a rule book.....

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Originally posted by Bulldog 19:

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If the runner was physically tagged (and not home plate), then he's out. It's up to everyone to know the situation.

So there's a double standard here?

No double standard. If someone's out, they're called out; if they're safe, they're called safe.

Why'd you think it was a double standard?

What I mean this:

Umpire says "ball 4" and the batter goes to first and the runner at first goes to second. Defense questions it and it's determined that it was actually ball 3. It was stated earlier that the runner would go back to first because the umpire screwed up.

Fine.

But then:
If the umpire signals strike 3 with a ball in the dirt and the runner is tagged out, you're saying out even if it's determined that it was actually only strike 2.

That seems to be a double-standard to me. If the runner is called out because of a missed call, he should have known the situation? But if the runner goes to second on a wrong call, you can send him back. Shouldn't the defense have known the situation and thrown him out?

I took the third strike, runner gets tagged as two plays. In other words the runner is not the BR, but another runner stealing. An erronious strike three call isn't going to affect a runner stealing.

I actually could see Bulldog's point though, that if HP signalled strike 3, in error for third out, and runners left base due to call, not trying to steal, that "equity" should require them to be returned to base, just as the batter would still get another pitch.

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I actually could see Bulldog's point though, that if HP signalled strike 3, in error for third out, and runners left base due to call, not trying to steal, that "equity" should require them to be returned to base, just as the batter would still get another pitch.

Michael, I see what you're saying and in that case I would agree with you. But baseball17 is thinking the same way I read it..

With two outs I can see your point.

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Originally posted by Bulldog 19:

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If the runner was physically tagged (and not home plate), then he's out. It's up to everyone to know the situation.

So there's a double standard here?

Nope, the rules are applied equally for both teams.

My team runs this play as en easy way to snag an extra bag. 2 balls on a batter if the next pitch is a ball everyone just acts as if it were ball 4. More times than not the catcher is not heads up enough to throw out the runner.