Umpire Intimidation

I hope your facts are correct. This is a POLICE matter pure and simple. No sane adult would behave this way. I can almost understand a possible outburst in the parking lot but carrying it to another family member, in school, and using obscene language? Way over the top. The school needs to be notified as well.
Worse case, a restraining order might be needed (or a Protection From Abuse order).
I'm an umpire and I would consider it ASAP.

Definately a school and a league issue, your younger son has no reason to be subjected to any abuse from the player...get them involved asap...

Depending on your leagues level of involvement, competence, concern and history of backing officials, I would go there as well.....if you are still unsatisfied the police can be an option....

I had something like that happen to my daughter, I was doing some local legion games that happened to involve some of her HS's players....couple of calls didnt go their way and they tried to give her some heat because I was not "homering".....

I was a little concerned until I heard throught the grapevine that DOP (daughter of PIAA) who is now a specialist in the US Army, had handled it on her own.....

But she is not an 11 yr old....get the school administration involved asap...

Get the school involved. Classic bullying. You can call the parents, but that never works with those kind of people.

quote:

Originally posted by therefump:
I hope your facts are correct. This is a POLICE matter pure and simple. No sane adult would behave this way. I can almost understand a possible outburst in the parking lot but carrying it to another family member, in school, and using obscene language? Way over the top. The school needs to be notified as well.
Worse case, a restraining order might be needed (or a Protection From Abuse order).
I'm an umpire and I would consider it ASAP.

At this point your advice is overkill. Right now, in a nutshell, its a 14yr old yelling/cussing at an 11 yr old. And you want to call the police, get a possible restraining order? (14yr old must stay 200ft away from 11yr old, even in school?)

Contact the school admin, and let them handle things before going further...

League and officiating association should handle this in no uncertain terms for your umpire son as well as the school "should" handle bullying in the middle school....I have more faith in the league and ump association doing the job. Schools do a pretty poor job of handling "he said, she said" affairs for the most part, unless it takes place in front of faculty. Taking care of the coach is easy.

No uncertain terms means exactly that...any future occurrence with any ump and the coach is gone; would even consider banning him from the park where games are played if needed. I would also tell him that the league will make this a police matter if needed in order to provide for the safety of the players,umps and fans. Then as league prez, I would make very sure (in very clear language) that he understood exactly what was expected of him in the future and what his failure meant (again in very clear language). No, I would not consider his request of not allowing this ump at his teams games.

And before he sets foot on the field for a game/practice, the coach will apologize to the ump for his conduct and comments. That would be non-negotiable, as would be everything else I would tell him. No apology...no coach and possible banishment from the park for the season. My last request would be to tell him for his son to cool it at school as it would be shame for a game incident to possibly have school and legal consequences for his son.

Excessive...maybe but I don't play around with something like this with coaches or players. You can argue during the game all you want within the guidelines, but after the game is over that is it. Period. This applies to players and fans also...I would run their butts out fast if they were found out to be harassing umpires out in the parking lot.

I get Old Testament real quick with stuff like this.

Can't believe I'm speaking in the defense of an ump. LOL.

quote:

At this point your advice is overkill. Right now, in a nutshell, its a 14yr old yelling/cussing at an 11 yr old. And you want to call the police, get a possible restraining order? (14yr old must stay 200ft away from 11yr old, even in school?)

archangel,
I take it you've never been the point of harassment. If you have you would not have commented as such. Some people are nuts and if you step outside the law then it's your a** not theirs. Get the law behind you pure and simple.
Read S. Abrams post. That was put more eloquently and explicitly. Everything written in the original post is B.S. This is not a blood sport. It's a sport. Some people do not know the difference.

If nothing else comes of this it's a "nip it in the bud" situation.

quote:

Originally posted by therefump:

quote:

At this point your advice is overkill. Right now, in a nutshell, its a 14yr old yelling/cussing at an 11 yr old. And you want to call the police, get a possible restraining order? (14yr old must stay 200ft away from 11yr old, even in school?)

archangel,
I take it you've never been the point of harassment. If you have you would not have commented as such. Some people are nuts and if you step outside the law then it's your a** not theirs. Get the law behind you pure and simple.
Read S. Abrams post. That was put more eloquently and explicitly. Everything written in the original post is B.S. This is not a blood sport. It's a sport. Some people do not know the difference.

If nothing else comes of this it's a "nip it in the bud" situation.

I think his point was, the police aren't going to get involved in something like that, at least not at this point. No crime has been committed.

I would hope the league would get involved. Issue a post game ejection and see what happens. I don't see why there should be a time limit on that.

We used to solve this problem with a baseball bat to the knee. You might take a beating for it, but someone would be walking around with a limp for a while. And they usually never bothered you again. If they did, you got the other knee.

The police have more important things to be concerned with than this PETTY B S

therefump, S. Abrams and Doughnutman:

I wonder if perhaps you have misunderstood the original post? The coach hasn't done anything according to the OP; apparently the only incorrect behavior is that of a teenager. Furthermore, the described behavior hardly amounts to a matter for the police.

So the suggestion that the coach should apologize "for his conduct and comments" is way off the mark. Perhaps it is true that "no sane adult would behave this way", but the objectionable behavior hasn't come from an adult. Finally, we have no idea whether this family is "those kind of people."

schwammi,
Probably you do have an idea of whether a phone call to the coach would be poorly received. I certainly would start there, but with only the goal to inform the parent of what has happened. Most parents won't be pleased with their child when they learn that he has verbally abused a younger child. If the parents tell you (perhaps after hearing their son's side) that they are taking care of it, I would let the matter drop.

If the parents defend their son's actions, or express their displeasure with your older son's umpiring, then I think you have to bring it to the league's attention. But the probable result will be bad blood all around, and your son probably will be taken off that team's games.

In my opinion, the only reason that you should get involved with this matter is because your 11 year old son is being impacted. Otherwise, again IMO, this should be your umpire son's issue to take care of, with the league or with the player.

Take it to the league, and to the school. The player needs to be taken care of by:
A. His father ( I know what my father would have done to me) and B the league.
I'm on the board for my sons league. If this happened, the kid would sit.
The School should handle the at school problem. Bullying is a big issue for them right now, they will take action especially with the age difference.

If it happened to me or my kids, I'm with Dash. They would never do it again.

First, thank you to everyone for your input. This has been difficult at best. I have thoroughly read each and every post to help me make some sense out of this.

My opinion is that this is very troubling to me. Quite frankly, the kid is a jerk and the dad (head coach) is just as bad. It raises several issues in my mind:
1. Most assaults on umpires warrant police intervention. But what if it is excessive verbal?
2. Most umpires are protected for game day activities, but what if it carries over to the next day, or week, etc?
3. The umpires clearly warrant protection, but what happens when the actions are levied against family members?

Violence against umpires is out of hand. I worry about my 17 yr old at each game. I have been at a game and witnessed an unruly fan jump all over him. He handled it well, but I still worry about when it might go "over the edge".

Now, facts.....the school did investigate the incident. Interviewed my son and several witnesses. Declared it as a clearcut case of bullying and will be issuing a punishment commensurate with the event and any past offenses. So, to THEREFUMP, yes I did have my facts straight. And to TRHIT and ARCHANGEL, I hope you now understand that this is not petty BS. I have not called the police and will not based on this sole event, but I am not sure this is over. Involving my 11 yr old is way over the line. What happens on the field is the responsibility of those on the field and ends when the game is over. To carry it beyond those "guard rails" is out of line.

3FINGEREDGLOVE, you are right. My involvement is about my 11yr old, not my 17 yr old umpire. We had actually talked about the game when he got home. He shared with me commentary on the coach and son acting like a jerk after the game and we discussed whether or not his "ignoring it" was the right thing to do. We were convinced he had handled it properly, so there was nothing more to discuss or concern ourselves with. But when the player attacked my 11yr old the next day, it was time for me to get involved. As I said, what happens on the field should stay on the field. Extending this to the next day and involving family members is way out of line.

I have a meeting with the league next week to address this. The two top guys from the umpiring association will be there with me. I believe a player suspension will send a terse message. Unfortunately, I don't think that will be the end of it. And my 17 yr old will no longer accept games for this team. There are plenty of other opportunities to umpire games for other teams.

And my hope is that my actions will raise some awareness for everyone involved. My 11 yr old now understands that he had nothing to do with it, but it sure did bother him. My 17 yr old has been re-assured by his umpiring partner that night that there was nothing that should have caused this reaction from a coach or a player. We continue to talk about it because he is quite upset at how this has impacted the family.

Thanks again to everyone for your input.

quote:

Originally posted by schwammi:And my 17 yr old will no longer accept games for this team.

How about ALL umpires from your association refusing to work games involving this team unless and until the HC and his punk kid are kicked off?

Good luck.

quote:

Originally posted by dash_riprock:

quote:

Originally posted by schwammi:And my 17 yr old will no longer accept games for this team.

How about ALL umpires from your association refusing to work games involving this team unless and until the HC and his punk kid are kicked off?

Good luck.

And punish the other 14 kids on the team, plus all the kids on the other teams they play? Nahhhhhhhh.

quote:

Originally posted by therefump:

quote:

At this point your advice is overkill. Right now, in a nutshell, its a 14yr old yelling/cussing at an 11 yr old. And you want to call the police, get a possible restraining order? (14yr old must stay 200ft away from 11yr old, even in school?)

archangel,
I take it you've never been the point of harassment. If you have you would not have commented as such. Some people are nuts and if you step outside the law then it's your a** not theirs. Get the law behind you pure and simple.
Read S. Abrams post. That was put more eloquently and explicitly. Everything written in the original post is B.S. This is not a blood sport. It's a sport. Some people do not know the difference.

If nothing else comes of this it's a "nip it in the bud" situation.

If a fourteen year old yells at an eleven year old, all the police are going to do it tell the fourteen year old not to do it again. They don't have the evidence to do anything more.

quote:

I'm on the board for my sons league. If this happened, the kid would sit.

Your board can't penalize the kid for behavior away from the league facilities. We had a serious incident away from the field when my son was in LL. Williamsport told the president since it didn't happen on the facilities there was nothing the president to do to stop the kid from playing. The only league issue is the behavior in the parking lot.

RJM - your premise is exactly what I am challenging. Where do we draw the line? If it is physical violence against an umpire at the field, that is clear cut and warrants action. But suppose it is the next day? Does that make it okay? Suppose my 11 yr old was in the hospital? Would the fact that it was the next day make it okay for you?

My challenge to the league is to take a proactive stance that this is unacceptable. The consequence of not playing one game is insignificant (well, unless that is the day the scouts are there), but the message it sends and the tone of "unacceptable behavior" will be very clear. If you condone it, then where does it stop.

PS: They are going to have a pretty tough time NOT tying this back to the baseball incident, although I am sure they will make that argument.

If the school ties it back to the baseball incident then the league can take action. If they don't then the kid needs to explain why he is jumping an 11 yr old for no apparent reason.
My fifteen yr old had a problem with a girl at his school. Her boyfriend jumped him the next day with a couple of his buddies. Three on one, he walked away from the confrontation. He had to talk to the in school officer the next day about the girl. He mentioned the boyfriend, who was talked by his officer. A week later the boyfriend was arrested for carrying a gun at school. My son is a black belt and more than able to take care of himself but luckily it went no further. Bullying has to be stopped as soon as possible.

Some may not like my previous answer about how to handle the coach but I'm sticking to my guns. The coach gets a butt chewing by the league prez. If the coach doesn't like it or what is said, too bad. I'm sure he and the players had some Code of Conduct form they signed before the season began and the ones I've signed were zero tolerance for this coach's actions; pretty much a 2 game suspension minimum.

While schwammi and his 17yr old umpire son may choose to ignore this coach's actions, a league or ump association should not. In my opinion, if you ignore something like this, you are in effect condoning it. Nip it in the bud and send the message real quick that the league doesn't tolerate this behavior from coaches.

Where do you think the 14 yr old learned bullying is ok....from Dad the coach. I am not naive enough to believe a parental phone call to the coach would do anything to stop the school bullying. It seems worrying about "bad blood" is the issue....the league needs to fix or get rid of the "bad blood", ie. the coach. Or is dropping "F bombs" on the umps in the parking lot now fair game and not objectionable?

Police matter...not yet. The school bullying may be beyond the scope of the league. The league may not be able to penalize the kid for the school issue, but it can make a very strong suggestion to the coach to his son's conduct and the need to keep this a baseball matter versus school/legal matter.

At what point does the bullying legally become assault when a 14yr verbally abuses (threatens/scares) an 11 yr old? Or does battery have to be added to get our attention?

Sorry, but I don't like bullies....either adult coaches to teenage umps or schoolchildren to younger kids.

quote:

Originally posted by S. Abrams:
Some may not like my previous answer about how to handle the coach but I'm sticking to my guns. The coach gets a butt chewing by the league prez. If the coach doesn't like it or what is said, too bad. I'm sure he and the players had some Code of Conduct form they signed before the season began and the ones I've signed were zero tolerance for this coach's actions; pretty much a 2 game suspension minimum.

While schwammi and his 17yr old umpire son may choose to ignore this coach's actions, a league or ump association should not. In my opinion, if you ignore something like this, you are in effect condoning it. Nip it in the bud and send the message real quick that the league doesn't tolerate this behavior from coaches.

Where do you think the 14 yr old learned bullying is ok....from Dad the coach. I am not naive enough to believe a parental phone call to the coach would do anything to stop the school bullying. It seems worrying about "bad blood" is the issue....the league needs to fix or get rid of the "bad blood", ie. the coach. Or is dropping "F bombs" on the umps in the parking lot now fair game and not objectionable?

Police matter...not yet. The school bullying may be beyond the scope of the league. The league may not be able to penalize the kid for the school issue, but it can make a very strong suggestion to the coach to his son's conduct and the need to keep this a baseball matter versus school/legal matter.

At what point does the bullying legally become assault when a 14yr verbally abuses (threatens/scares) an 11 yr old? Or does battery have to be added to get our attention?

Sorry, but I don't like bullies....either adult coaches to teenage umps or schoolchildren to younger kids.

I agree the coach needs to be taken to the board to at least be aware of his son's actions. He needs to clean up his onfield actions but the off field cussing of the umpires was the kid, not the Dad.

quote:

Originally posted by dash_riprock:

quote:

Originally posted by schwammi:And my 17 yr old will no longer accept games for this team.

How about ALL umpires from your association refusing to work games involving this team unless and until the HC and his punk kid are kicked off?

Good luck.

My association has done this twice.....I think it is a fair tactic to address wrongs once the administration of a league or school refuses to handle the situation....

Youth League- League Board of Directors refused to suspend a coach for Physical Violence towards an umpire....(making contact...pushed the umpire as he was on his way to the car after the game)....

HS League- A High School coach refused to give the game checks to the umpires when he lost....would say the checks werent here...when in reality he had them in his pocket...(2 separate times)....

In both instances, Umpiring services were withheld until changes in the system were implemented and issues cleared up....

Again, both these times were AFTER normal efforts were made to resolve both issues...

I seem to rememeber that even in Salisbury that saying "M***** F*****" to someone isn't generally considered a friendly greeting.

Sounds like the 14yr old is following Dad's lead in the communications department.

Most associations dictate anything that happens within the parks confines is within league domain...hence, no cussing at the ump in the parking lot.

OUCH...just RE-READ the orginal post.

Mea Culpa, y'all are right. The SON cussed the ump.
Coach gets a reprieve to a degree except to control the son.

The son is in deep do-do with the league.

Man, I gotta get this prescription on my glasses changed.

I booted this post about as bad as possible. Sit me on the bench, I'm toast.

quote:

RJM - your premise is exactly what I am challenging. Where do we draw the line? If it is physical violence against an umpire at the field, that is clear cut and warrants action. But suppose it is the next day? Does that make it okay? Suppose my 11 yr old was in the hospital? Would the fact that it was the next day make it okay for you?

Here's the real scenario. Previous night my son hits a game winning home run. The next day a kid from an opposing team saw my son in his neighborhood, went in the house to get his CO2 gun, pursued my son, waited for him to come out of hiding and shot him in the neck. I'll guess he was aiming for his head. The lead pellet was embedded against my son's main artery. He had to be rushed to the hospital for surgery. For whatever reason the kid was not arrested. That day we were too busy at the hospital to concern ourselves with having the kid arrested.

The following night the kid played in his LL game. The news of the shooting was out. A lot of parents were outraged the kid was allowed to play. The president was bombarded at the field and on the phone that night. He called Williamsport. He was told even though the incident was alledgedly in relation to a game, the kid could not be suspended since the shooting happened away from the LL facilities.

A few days later we had charges filed against the kid. He got probation, six months of counseling and had to stay two hundred feet from our son with the exception of school and community events that required him to be closer, for one year.

We made the school aware of the event. The kid had a history of outbursts. We were afraid the kid might blame our son for being in trouble and attack him again. The principal told us they had nothing to do with the event. I requested they have an assembly on the safe use of guns and consequences of improper use. They said that would be singling out the kid in an attempt to humilate him.

The kid did make a mistake a couple of weeks after the event that got him suspended from LL. Our team was undefeated. My son was still out of action. The kid's team gave our team it's first loss. Before the handshake line the kid ran by the bench waving his hands at our dugout like pistols yelling, "Bang, bang, you're dead. You're not undefeated anymore."

This story does have a happy ending. My son recovered. He played the remainder of the LL season and all-stars. In middle school football practice that fall he was matched up in a one on one drill with this kid. He pounded him until the coaches had to pull him off. My son told the coaches he was just finishing his block.

The story also had a weird ending. These two are friends in high school. The kid grew up. He's actually a nice kid now. I think having his out of control brother out of the house and off to college was a benefit.