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Got an invitation in the mail yesterday. I tried a search here, but found little. They sell it as a tryout for next year's Under Armour AA Classic. However, I would imagine this is NOT how they pick the players for that. They do seem to offer some useful stuff for the price. However, they have a sign up deadline for March 1. The geography is convenient since we could attend on the tail end of another tourney. I guess my question is, is this invite as focused and targeted as the literature would imply or simply is my son on their mailing list?

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That would depend, how old is your son and how do they know of him?  I know they using mailing lists.  My youngest son (2020 grad) received an invite when he was 10.  I found it odd, seeing how he was 10 and I've never signed him up for anything baseball related other than rec ball before.  I looked at the back of the invite and there was small print stating that he was sent the invitation from being affiliated with LL.  Needless to say, we did not attend. 

2018 Where do they know him from? He's PG ranked in the mid 200's for his class (3rd in the state), ranked in the top 200 by PBR (2nd in state). I guess, I don't know if the invite came from that or what. I certainly question the selling point is that it's basically a tryout for the 2017 AA Classic. I would assume they take their AA list from among the best whether they went to a UA "tryout" or not. I get the feeling they try to hard to make the invite package look like something more special than it actually is. I know I've seen their "tryout" camps send out ads before, but this, at the very least, isn't that.

 

Edit: mid-300's

Last edited by roothog66
bballdad2016 posted:

Sounds like he received the invite based on his national ranking, etc.  Others on the board have had players attend the UA AA Classic and hopefully they can answer your questions better than I can. 

Maybe. If he weren't nationally ranked, I'd know what this is. As it is, I'm just suspicious. The shame is, with today's showcase/college camp environment, I have to be suspicious of every invite that wants my money. Thank goodness for this site.

Root, assuming this is the Baseball Factory invite.  They are showing the logo as largely Under Armour, but it is Baseball Factory and I'm sure you'll see that embedded in all the marketing logo on the letter you received.

These invites typically go out to high profile players who haven't paid their way up the ranks in the lower level BF showcases, but make no mistake, it is BF.  My son was invited to a fall BF event for Team One based on his reputation.  He received the same invite this week that your son received.

Last edited by Nuke83

over the last 2 years I have recieved @ 75-100 mailings and double that emailings about camps/tryouts/showcases. Heres what worked here.Any legit offering does not cost very much.Theres backers/sponsers how ever you want to put things.The people running these events get for say a three day event could be up to a grand or more per family.If your guy is as good as you say why pay 3,5,600 bucks for anything?I paid 175.00 at a PBR event freshmane summer.Never paid anything near that after.I did have some travel costs that were much more.Never event costs.Just how it went here.

He gets tons of those emails and camp/showcase offers all the time. It's quite easy to know about 95% of them. I question this one because it actually is connected to a big event, has a minimal cost (comparatively) and a very short deadline in which to accept. I have, in the past, gotten advertising from Baseball Factory touting their traveling "tryouts" for their travel program. This one is a bit different. I actually don't see him going unless I am told by someone it is a "can't miss" event (the kind of advice I got when I had the same questions concerning his PG Jr. National invite).

Our experience: Baseball Factory charges less than $100 (think it was $50) for their BF/UA Tryout. After which, a staff member contacts player/parent with rundown of player's strengths, weaknesses compared to national averages and offers "opportunity" for player to be a member of a BF/UA team at any one of several venues and at different dates and prices. NTGson was invited to play on the BF/UA National team and play in a showcase-style tournament (well-known) at a Spring Training site in Arizona at the modest cost of somewhere north of $2500 (memory is failing). The presentation was very well done by the BF rep and his ringing endorsement of my kid brought a smile to my face, but not a reach for my wallet.

At the Tryout, the overall level of play was, kindly put, mediocre at best. An acquaintance's son was there. He is a 2017 who wasn't a starter on his high school's JV team last year and in all probability will not be a starter this year on his Varsity. However, he subsequently attended, at a several thousand dollar cost, a BF/UA event held in Ft. Myers, Fl. He was thrilled at the invitation as were his parents and I am very happy for his joy. But the reality is that this family, never having been exposed to the level of play of a PG event or any other higher level competition, spent a significant amount of money for a 3-4 day experience and a wonderful memory. IMHO they would have spent more wisely by sending their son to several college camps and more locally-oriented showcases to meet their expressed intent to help their son play college baseball.

NotThatGuy posted:

Our experience: Baseball Factory charges less than $100 (think it was $50) for their BF/UA Tryout. After which, a staff member contacts player/parent with rundown of player's strengths, weaknesses compared to national averages and offers "opportunity" for player to be a member of a BF/UA team at any one of several venues and at different dates and prices. NTGson was invited to play on the BF/UA National team and play in a showcase-style tournament (well-known) at a Spring Training site in Arizona at the modest cost of somewhere north of $2500 (memory is failing). The presentation was very well done by the BF rep and his ringing endorsement of my kid brought a smile to my face, but not a reach for my wallet.

At the Tryout, the overall level of play was, kindly put, mediocre at best. An acquaintance's son was there. He is a 2017 who wasn't a starter on his high school's JV team last year and in all probability will not be a starter this year on his Varsity. However, he subsequently attended, at a several thousand dollar cost, a BF/UA event held in Ft. Myers, Fl. He was thrilled at the invitation as were his parents and I am very happy for his joy. But the reality is that this family, never having been exposed to the level of play of a PG event or any other higher level competition, spent a significant amount of money for a 3-4 day experience and a wonderful memory. IMHO they would have spent more wisely by sending their son to several college camps and more locally-oriented showcases to meet their expressed intent to help their son play college baseball.

This isn't that one. I've gotten stuff on that one in the past. Cost is $299 ($199 PO) and it isn't a tryout for the BF teams. This one tries to bill itself as a Team One event attached to the selections for the UA All American game at Wrigley. The UA All American game is, indeed run by BF under the Team One banner and is, without a doubt legitimate event (MLB Network, etc.). I think joemktg was asking the same questions a few years ago, but got no real answers specific to this event.

It looks like anybody can request an invite to one of the three National Team One events. This does indeed look very different and more involved from your average Under Armour/Baseball Factory showcases, but I would question any event touting their exclusivity if you can click a button on a website to request your very own invite.

From my recollection of the discussions around UA All American game last summer, it seems like most of the kids invited to play were probably not identified through one of these events.

kandkfunk posted:

It looks like anybody can request an invite to one of the three National Team One events. This does indeed look very different and more involved from your average Under Armour/Baseball Factory showcases, but I would question any event touting their exclusivity if you can click a button on a website to request your very own invite.

From my recollection of the discussions around UA All American game last summer, it seems like most of the kids invited to play were probably not identified through one of these events.

It's my take, as well, that this is not at all how they really choose the UA A/A participants. However, as to requesting an invite, keep in mind that the Area Code games and PG Junior National Showcase also have a button to click for an invite request.

roothog66 posted:
kandkfunk posted:

It looks like anybody can request an invite to one of the three National Team One events. This does indeed look very different and more involved from your average Under Armour/Baseball Factory showcases, but I would question any event touting their exclusivity if you can click a button on a website to request your very own invite.

From my recollection of the discussions around UA All American game last summer, it seems like most of the kids invited to play were probably not identified through one of these events.

It's my take, as well, that this is not at all how they really choose the UA A/A participants. However, as to requesting an invite, keep in mind that the Area Code games and PG Junior National Showcase also have a button to click for an invite request.

Be right back, I have a few invitations to request...

 

TPM posted:

While I understand you are making an inquiry, do you feel that your son needs to attend every major event he gets an invite to?  

If you are attending a PG major event, it's not necessary. Don't over expose your son unless you have to.

JMO 

This is one of those posts that I think needs clarification for us newbies. 

1. If he can afford it why wouldn't he have his son at every major event?  I understand why not EVERY event, his son is a pitcher and there is a shutdown period that he needs...but the major ones....if he has the chance to go and doesn't interfere with his shut down period or obligations why not?

2. "Don't over expose your son unless you have to"..um...huh?  What is the downside of overexposure, further more how much is too much, and what is the deciding factor of "have to"?

CaCO3Girl posted:
TPM posted:

While I understand you are making an inquiry, do you feel that your son needs to attend every major event he gets an invite to?  

If you are attending a PG major event, it's not necessary. Don't over expose your son unless you have to.

JMO 

This is one of those posts that I think needs clarification for us newbies. 

1. If he can afford it why wouldn't he have his son at every major event?  I understand why not EVERY event, his son is a pitcher and there is a shutdown period that he needs...but the major ones....if he has the chance to go and doesn't interfere with his shut down period or obligations why not?

2. "Don't over expose your son unless you have to"..um...huh?  What is the downside of overexposure, further more how much is too much, and what is the deciding factor of "have to"?

If your son is going into his Junior or senior year I get it. But as a rising sophomore pitcher it's not necessary.  For some reason people think they have to attend every event you get a flyer for.   Be where u need to be at the right time at the right place and make sure you are targeting the right programs according to your ability, grades, etc and then remember the player may be on the radar in his draft year and want to attend those events. 

And FWIW, rankings really don't mean much for invites. You don't have to be on everyone's ranking list. You are invited because your folks may have the ability to pay.  

TPM posted:
CaCO3Girl posted:
TPM posted:

While I understand you are making an inquiry, do you feel that your son needs to attend every major event he gets an invite to?  

If you are attending a PG major event, it's not necessary. Don't over expose your son unless you have to.

JMO 

This is one of those posts that I think needs clarification for us newbies. 

1. If he can afford it why wouldn't he have his son at every major event?  I understand why not EVERY event, his son is a pitcher and there is a shutdown period that he needs...but the major ones....if he has the chance to go and doesn't interfere with his shut down period or obligations why not?

2. "Don't over expose your son unless you have to"..um...huh?  What is the downside of overexposure, further more how much is too much, and what is the deciding factor of "have to"?

If your son is going into his Junior or senior year I get it. But as a rising sophomore pitcher it's not necessary.  For some reason people think they have to attend every event you get a flyer for.   Be where u need to be at the right time at the right place and make sure you are targeting the right programs according to your ability, grades, etc and then remember the player may be on the radar in his draft year and want to attend those events. 

And FWIW, rankings really don't mean much for invites. You don't have to be on everyone's ranking list. You are invited because your folks may have the ability to pay.  

Thank you for the clarification, so in other words be aggressive as a rising junior and not sooner.

Doesn't "rising junior" mean you have just completed 10th grade and are going into 11th?  That is what Root's son will be at the time of this event, so is it time for him to be aggressive?

Root,

Great advice from  all the above, my 2019 was invited to the UA world Series after attending a BF camp for $99 for this coming summer. When they called us to give him his stats, they  told us  he would have a starting spot at his position  , he was ranked very very high on there list( we saw  that when  the list came out ) , but at the same time this can get very expensive quick, we probably  wont attend since its in the middle of his travel season and I think its the same week or after from a PG event  , it all depends on your son , if he wants to go ,is he ready?

I know my son knew he was ready  .and sometimes you got to go with your gut.

 I tell my son I'm  giving him  opportunities,  if you want them its in your hands.

 

good luck and as always blow it up and hit he back stop !!

CaCO3Girl posted:
TPM posted:
CaCO3Girl posted:
TPM posted:

While I understand you are making an inquiry, do you feel that your son needs to attend every major event he gets an invite to?  

If you are attending a PG major event, it's not necessary. Don't over expose your son unless you have to.

JMO 

This is one of those posts that I think needs clarification for us newbies. 

1. If he can afford it why wouldn't he have his son at every major event?  I understand why not EVERY event, his son is a pitcher and there is a shutdown period that he needs...but the major ones....if he has the chance to go and doesn't interfere with his shut down period or obligations why not?

2. "Don't over expose your son unless you have to"..um...huh?  What is the downside of overexposure, further more how much is too much, and what is the deciding factor of "have to"?

If your son is going into his Junior or senior year I get it. But as a rising sophomore pitcher it's not necessary.  For some reason people think they have to attend every event you get a flyer for.   Be where u need to be at the right time at the right place and make sure you are targeting the right programs according to your ability, grades, etc and then remember the player may be on the radar in his draft year and want to attend those events. 

And FWIW, rankings really don't mean much for invites. You don't have to be on everyone's ranking list. You are invited because your folks may have the ability to pay.  

Thank you for the clarification, so in other words be aggressive as a rising junior and not sooner.

Doesn't "rising junior" mean vyou have just completed 10th grade and are going into 11th?  That is what Root's son will be at the time of this event, so is it time for him to be aggressive?

One more time, one doesn't have to do everything.  

A few clarifications. No, TPM, I don't feel that he has to do every event he gets a flyer for (that would literally be hundreds). What I'm trying to do is to determine which ones actually have an impact on his plans. Straight exposure is only one factor and not necessarily the most important. He's already well known by pretty much every school he is interested in. My question was simply what is this invite? As to over exposure, I'm not sure what that could possibly mean. However, on factor is that it has to fit within his current summer schedule.

Second - and this is one I think people are having a lot of trouble with - this is not the same UA event that is $99 with an upgrade option for video that we've all gotten info on before. That one is in several cities at different times and is billed as a tryout that leads to being placed on a UA team for a tournament with the "opportunity" to pay thousands for the honor. I think we all know what that is. This seems, at least, to be something more like an invite for Area Code games, except for the UA All American game. It's held at three sites only, promises exposure to scouts and recruiters at the tryout and is touted as the route to be picked for the UA All-American Game. Cost is $299 or $199 for PO and includes a profile page with video from the tryout. It is also run by Baseball Factory under the Team One name, has only one specific tryout date, a requirement that you only register by calling the director, and had a very strict and near deadline of March 1. The UA A/A game is, without a doubt, legit. However, two things have me questioning what exact importance to put on this event. First, the obvious money-making UA tournament team program and second, I find it difficult to believe that they either need nor use this event for picking the A/A team.

To clear up one other point, my son is only scheduled for one showcase this summer, so he's certainly not chasing every event under the sun. Actually, I guess he's doing two PG events, the Rocky Mountain (because his entire summer team is going and we're not paying for it) and the Jr. National. The only other one that is a possibility is if he gets an A/C tryout invite. Our plan was to get early exposure and then deal directly with the schools we like. That has worked just fine.

 

If you have a PG profile, play PG and other events that put you in front of actual RC's or at least stringers, have a youtube page and cherry pick the college camps you go to...  what else would you need?  From there it is just a matter of e mailing and calling interested parties.  Also call on the head of your organization to make some contacts for you.

2020dad posted:

If you have a PG profile, play PG and other events that put you in front of actual RC's or at least stringers, have a youtube page and cherry pick the college camps you go to...  what else would you need?  From there it is just a matter of e mailing and calling interested parties.  Also call on the head of your organization to make some contacts for you.

Well, this is pretty simple as well as very good advice. It's not really difficult to figure it out and Root seems to be a pretty smart guy.  

Get a PG profile, a rating as well as ranking and stick with as many of their events as you can for reference, and attend the camp of your sons target school.  Keep in mind, which I am sure that you have, that your son is competing against  players from every state.  So you need to expose your son in tournaments (not every showcase that might sound like it offers the right exposure) and let them see how he competes, not just how he showcases.  There is a difference.  I know that you know that.

And remember that it is all in the marketing of your product,  some companies  really haven't been as successful as some others, so I think switching up stuff, kind of looks like a different product and that may be why you don't get a lot of answers. PG showcases are costly, but its like that box of chocolates, however in their case, you always know what you are going to get.

One very important event you may have overlooked, attend PG Woodbat in Jupiter next October. You don't have to attend with a team,  PG will place you on one of their teams.  If you want exposure, THIS is it.  Of course all depends on whether he has gotten that commitment you are looking for.

Or follow the path of USA baseball and find out how you get an opportunity to try out for the junior team. All this stuff is a lot more impressive than UA, BF, TO. My son made the team tryouts as a rising sophmore, not the actual team so coaches and scouts knew who he was by the time he was in prime time recruiting, which still is the same for most, their senior summer.  

You know Root, you keep saying things have changed in recruiting, really they haven't except for the early commitments, they entire process still remains the same.  Just keep in mind that its important that your son turns up on campus healthy.  

JMO

 

My son (Pac-12 signee, top 250 PG) did two of these, UA Futures as a rising junior and UA National as a rising senior. Check out the rosters from past years and you will see that these are fairly high level events, especially the Futures one. Good competition and the price is right. You get a quality video that is downloadable so you can post it wherever you want to, a useful evaluation, and an online profile for no extra charge. Depending one which UA showcase it is, I would say do it if you can.  Just one opinion. 

roothog66 posted:
bballdad2016 posted:

Sounds like he received the invite based on his national ranking, etc.  Others on the board have had players attend the UA AA Classic and hopefully they can answer your questions better than I can. 

Maybe. If he weren't nationally ranked, I'd know what this is. As it is, I'm just suspicious. The shame is, with today's showcase/college camp environment, I have to be suspicious of every invite that wants my money. Thank goodness for this site.

That is the thought you should have because the majority of time you will be correct.  

I think my son received a few of those since his 8th grade year.  After doing some research I saw it as a money grab.  

TPM posted:
2020dad posted:

If you have a PG profile, play PG and other events that put you in front of actual RC's or at least stringers, have a youtube page and cherry pick the college camps you go to...  what else would you need?  From there it is just a matter of e mailing and calling interested parties.  Also call on the head of your organization to make some contacts for you.

Well, this is pretty simple as well as very good advice. It's not really difficult to figure it out and Root seems to be a pretty smart guy.  

Get a PG profile, a rating as well as ranking and stick with as many of their events as you can for reference, and attend the camp of your sons target school.  Keep in mind, which I am sure that you have, that your son is competing against  players from every state.  So you need to expose your son in tournaments (not every showcase that might sound like it offers the right exposure) and let them see how he competes, not just how he showcases.  There is a difference.  I know that you know that.

And remember that it is all in the marketing of your product,  some companies  really haven't been as successful as some others, so I think switching up stuff, kind of looks like a different product and that may be why you don't get a lot of answers. PG showcases are costly, but its like that box of chocolates, however in their case, you always know what you are going to get.

One very important event you may have overlooked, attend PG Woodbat in Jupiter next October. You don't have to attend with a team,  PG will place you on one of their teams.  If you want exposure, THIS is it.  Of course all depends on whether he has gotten that commitment you are looking for.

Or follow the path of USA baseball and find out how you get an opportunity to try out for the junior team. All this stuff is a lot more impressive than UA, BF, TO. My son made the team tryouts as a rising sophmore, not the actual team so coaches and scouts knew who he was by the time he was in prime time recruiting, which still is the same for most, their senior summer.  

You know Root, you keep saying things have changed in recruiting, really they haven't except for the early commitments, they entire process still remains the same.  Just keep in mind that its important that your son turns up on campus healthy.  

JMO

 

A couple of points to clear up confusion. You may have been talking in general, and not necessarily to my particular case. However, in my particular case, he will be a rising junior when he hits the summer schedule. He is scheduled for the PG Junior Nationals. His team will be playing both the WWBA and Jupiter PG tournaments. And he will play in the PBR Future Games this fall.

I also wanted to thank those who have PM'ed me with more detailed info on the showcase I asked about.

 

Last edited by roothog66
roothog66 posted:
TPM posted:
2020dad posted:

If you have a PG profile, play PG and other events that put you in front of actual RC's or at least stringers, have a youtube page and cherry pick the college camps you go to...  what else would you need?  From there it is just a matter of e mailing and calling interested parties.  Also call on the head of your organization to make some contacts for you.

Well, this is pretty simple as well as very good advice. It's not really difficult to figure it out and Root seems to be a pretty smart guy.  

Get a PG profile, a rating as well as ranking and stick with as many of their events as you can for reference, and attend the camp of your sons target school.  Keep in mind, which I am sure that you have, that your son is competing against  players from every state.  So you need to expose your son in tournaments (not every showcase that might sound like it offers the right exposure) and let them see how he competes, not just how he showcases.  There is a difference.  I know that you know that.

And remember that it is all in the marketing of your product,  some companies  really haven't been as successful as some others, so I think switching up stuff, kind of looks like a different product and that may be why you don't get a lot of answers. PG showcases are costly, but its like that box of chocolates, however in their case, you always know what you are going to get.

One very important event you may have overlooked, attend PG Woodbat in Jupiter next October. You don't have to attend with a team,  PG will place you on one of their teams.  If you want exposure, THIS is it.  Of course all depends on whether he has gotten that commitment you are looking for.

Or follow the path of USA baseball and find out how you get an opportunity to try out for the junior team. All this stuff is a lot more impressive than UA, BF, TO. My son made the team tryouts as a rising sophmore, not the actual team so coaches and scouts knew who he was by the time he was in prime time recruiting, which still is the same for most, their senior summer.  

You know Root, you keep saying things have changed in recruiting, really they haven't except for the early commitments, they entire process still remains the same.  Just keep in mind that its important that your son turns up on campus healthy.  

JMO

 

A couple of points to clear up confusion. You may have been talking in general, and not necessarily to my particular case. However, in my particular case, he will be a rising junior when he hits the summer schedule. He is scheduled for the PG Junior Nationals. His team will be playing both the WWBA and Jupiter PG tournaments. And he will play in the PBR Future Games this fall.

I also wanted to thank those who have PM'ed me with more detailed info on the showcase I asked about.

 

If he is doing all that, why would he need another showcase?  For exposure to different programs? 

Are you afraid he might miss out on something?  

TPM posted:
roothog66 posted:
TPM posted:
2020dad posted:

If you have a PG profile, play PG and other events that put you in front of actual RC's or at least stringers, have a youtube page and cherry pick the college camps you go to...  what else would you need?  From there it is just a matter of e mailing and calling interested parties.  Also call on the head of your organization to make some contacts for you.

Well, this is pretty simple as well as very good advice. It's not really difficult to figure it out and Root seems to be a pretty smart guy.  

Get a PG profile, a rating as well as ranking and stick with as many of their events as you can for reference, and attend the camp of your sons target school.  Keep in mind, which I am sure that you have, that your son is competing against  players from every state.  So you need to expose your son in tournaments (not every showcase that might sound like it offers the right exposure) and let them see how he competes, not just how he showcases.  There is a difference.  I know that you know that.

And remember that it is all in the marketing of your product,  some companies  really haven't been as successful as some others, so I think switching up stuff, kind of looks like a different product and that may be why you don't get a lot of answers. PG showcases are costly, but its like that box of chocolates, however in their case, you always know what you are going to get.

One very important event you may have overlooked, attend PG Woodbat in Jupiter next October. You don't have to attend with a team,  PG will place you on one of their teams.  If you want exposure, THIS is it.  Of course all depends on whether he has gotten that commitment you are looking for.

Or follow the path of USA baseball and find out how you get an opportunity to try out for the junior team. All this stuff is a lot more impressive than UA, BF, TO. My son made the team tryouts as a rising sophmore, not the actual team so coaches and scouts knew who he was by the time he was in prime time recruiting, which still is the same for most, their senior summer.  

You know Root, you keep saying things have changed in recruiting, really they haven't except for the early commitments, they entire process still remains the same.  Just keep in mind that its important that your son turns up on campus healthy.  

JMO

 

A couple of points to clear up confusion. You may have been talking in general, and not necessarily to my particular case. However, in my particular case, he will be a rising junior when he hits the summer schedule. He is scheduled for the PG Junior Nationals. His team will be playing both the WWBA and Jupiter PG tournaments. And he will play in the PBR Future Games this fall.

I also wanted to thank those who have PM'ed me with more detailed info on the showcase I asked about.

 

If he is doing all that, why would he need another showcase?  For exposure to different programs? 

Are you afraid he might miss out on something?  

This wouldn't be all about exposure, but rather other opportunities. If it actually would be the path toward the UA A/A game and it were geographically and financially feasible, why not? If this were all just about exposure to college programs, he'd just stop playing summer ball right now. He already has exposure to, and offers from, his top picks. I hope my OP was treated by most as just what it was meant to be - a simple inquiry as to where this particular event stands in the hierarchy of showcase events and if anyone had experience. I would hope it didn't come off as our being "afraid he might miss out on something."

Root - would you be willing to provide a brief summary of what people have PM'd you? Nothing specific, just the overall consensus or lack there of. Since questions about this have come up before and there really isn't a thread with a great answer, maybe having a summary will help someone in the future with the same question.

kandkfunk posted:

Root - would you be willing to provide a brief summary of what people have PM'd you? Nothing specific, just the overall consensus or lack there of. Since questions about this have come up before and there really isn't a thread with a great answer, maybe having a summary will help someone in the future with the same question.

Sure. I've been told by others whose kids have attended that this is indeed not the same as the traveling tryouts they hold to put together tournament teams. It was confirmed that, actually, at least a few players at one of the showcases played in the A/A game at Wrigley. Also, the free video services provided are, almost in themselves, worth the price.

My problem will be timing. The one held in Florida is convenient because it comes directly on the heels of another Florida even he'll be at, but I wouldn't want him pushing to pitch in this just a couple of days after he might have pitched at the first event.

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