Unearned Run Question

This is an easy mystery to solve. The person keeping score was the pitcher’s parent.

It's possible that it was showing unearned due to the pitching change and not charging it to him.    Definitely an earned run charged to the first pitcher.

It's that "infield single".  Presumably the scorer thought that while not technically an error, it was someone's mistake, and the run shouldn't be earned.  A  slow roller where the fielder threw, late, to 1b rather than home?

I've seen plays scored as "fielder's choice" when everyone was safe.  That makes no sense to me - not an error, but not a hit, either.  The scorer is saying, "he should have been out."  But then if a run scores, it's earned.  ???

It’s according to who you were seeing. It is not an earned run on the pitcher who is pitching at the time, but the pitcher of record would be the first pitcher. .  

@anotherparent posted:

I've seen plays scored as "fielder's choice" when everyone was safe.  That makes no sense to me - not an error, but not a hit, either.  The scorer is saying, "he should have been out."  But then if a run scores, it's earned.  ???

I have scored this many times. Runner on first, ground ball fielded cleanly by an infielder, throw goes to second but the runner beats the throw. You don't charge an error for a fielder misjudging which base to throw to. And it's not a hit if the batter would have clearly been out had the throw gone to first.

MLB Rule 9.05(b)(4): The Official Scorer shall not credit a base hit when a fielder fails in an attempt to put out a preceding runner and, in the scorer’s judgment, the batter-runner could have been put out at first base

MLB Rule 9.12(a)(1) Comment: The Official Scorer shall not score mental mistakes or misjudgments as errors unless a specific rule prescribes otherwise ... The Official Scorer shall not charge an error to a fielder who incorrectly throws to the wrong base on a play

Two questions:  (1) what's the difference between that and an infield hit?  (2) if that run scores, is it earned?  I think that's what happened in the OP.

So you are saying a ball can be put in play and neither a hit or error be given. Never seen in college or HS and I don’t watch mlb.

@PitchingFan posted:

So you are saying a ball can be put in play and neither a hit or error be given. Never seen in college or HS and I don’t watch mlb.

PF, you're overthinking this.  That's the actual definition of a fielders choice.  It happens all the time.

Read Auberons post.  He says you can have a ball put in play without having hit or error

btw, amateur ball plays by a separate set of rules than mlb in scoring.

Yeah, I know,  and I'm not trying to be disagreeable .  And I also understand that you're talking about the batter actually getting on base without a hit or error, otherwise, anytime an out was recorded on a ball-in-play there is no hit or error charged.

But literally every time a batter hits a ball and another runner is forced out, the batter puts the ball in play, reaches base safely,  and there is no hit or error charged. This is called a fielder's choice. No differences in any rule set.

Of course I know what a Fielder's Choice is.  I'm talking about times when there is no hit, error, OR out.  It's scored a "fielder's choice," but perhaps in the OP it was scored an "infield hit".  That was my question, which Auberon confirms (9.12(a)(1)).  The fielder made a misjudgement, but that's not considered an "error".

I've seen that in summer ball (very reputable league, PF!).  And I think also in college.

Auberon was only clarifying that, by rule, you do not have to actually record an out in order to charge the batter with a fielder's choice instead of a hit or sacrifice.

Sorry - was posting at same time and saying basically same thing as you.

Either way, in the scenario posted, I can't see any way the run should be unearned.  Even IF there was a play where a runner was ruled safe on a fielders choice, this doesn't relieve the pitcher responsibility for that runner. 

Seems like the scorekeeper just made a mistake.  It's not as uncommon as you might think, even at the college level.  I see it pretty regularly on the games I follow.  Sometimes they get corrected after the fact, sometimes they don't.

Sometimes it sucks for the stats of the players involved, but in this case, there was really no downside for anybody.  The batter got the RBI, no fielders got dinged for an error, and the pitcher dodged an earned run.

Auberon did not say a Fielder's Choice.  Been doing it a long time.  He said you have nothing, if I read it right.  You don't have hit, error, or fielder's choice.  I've never seen it done right where the ball was put in play and you did not have either a hit, error, or fielder's choice.  I don't even think gamechanger will let you go forward without declaring one of them.

IMO there should be a scoring category named “play not made” to include instances where a ball is put in play, it’s a routine play for the fielder, no error is made, but the play isn’t made either. I see a lot of this in HS games. An example (and one of my pet peeves) is when a MIF plays too deep, doesn’t charge a slowly hit ground ball, fields the ball cleanly but doesn’t get the throw to 1B in time to record an out. This is routinely scored as an IF hit. And if a runner scores as a result of that play, or that hitter comes around to score, it is recorded as an earned run. None of that should be what happens. It is wrong to charge a pitcher an earned run when the run is scored as a result of a lapse in defensive support behind him. It’s also wrong to award a batter a hit on a routine ball put in play that should have resulted in an out. Although the current scorekeeping rules don’t allow for this, in the scenario I described, I would have no problem with someone scoring it as a fielder’s choice (no hit for the batter), and an unearned run if applicable (no penalty to the pitcher). But I would prefer that the responsibility be put on the fielder (where it belongs) as a “play not made” which would count towards his fielding percentage the same as an error.

From the OBR:

"FIELDER’S CHOICE is the act of a fielder who handles a fair grounder and, instead of throwing to first base to put out the batter-runner, throws to another base in an attempt to put out a preceding runner. The term is also used by scorers (a) to account for the advance of the batter-runner who takes one or more extra bases when the fielder who handles his safe hit attempts to put out a preceding runner; (b) to account for the advance of a runner (other than by stolen base or error) while a fielder is attempting to put out another runner; and (c) to account for the advance of a runner made solely because of the defensive team’s indifference (undefended steal)"

Notice it does not say an out has to be recorded, just an attempt to put out another runner.

It is technically a "fielder's choice" every time we say a runner "advanced on the throw", and there are no outs recorded many times in these situations.

I agree with that T_Thomas.  But that is not what he was saying.  He was saying you can have a play where there is no hit, no error, or no fielder's choice if I read his reply right.  I do not agree with that.  If a ball is put in play, it has to be one of the three.

I also agree Adbono.  We were talking the other day at UF vs UT game and a ball was hit against the shift and the pitcher gave up a hit which would have been an easy out if they had been playing normal.  But we also said that there were 4 balls put in play that were outs because of the shift that would have been hits so it all equals out.  I would say the same in your situation.  There were probably some plays made because the fielders were way back that would not be made if they were in normal positioning.   Max Ferguson for UT used to play short RF with no one on and made a crazy amount of outs because of how deep he played.  But he also gave a few soft hit balls to the infield.  IT all equaled out.

It all equals out over a season.  That is the phrase I use regularly with my son.  His three earned runs this year are a ball that fell between three fielders and no one called it and an easy fly ball was a hit.  A ground ball that went right where the third baseman should have been but he was covering the line and inside the base.  A 3/2 walk on a pitch umpire told son next day should have been a strike, then son pulled, that the next pitcher gave up a double to score the walk.

This was  a college game.

Back to the OP... Since this is a HS board - Fed Rule 9.6.3 states "In order for a run to be earned, it must be scored without the aid of errors, or passed balls.  To determine whether runs are earned or not, reconstruct the inning without the errors and passed balls. If there is doubt as to whether or not a run is earned, the pitcher shall be given the benefit."

Do we "know" if the official scorer believed the 2nd batter's hit could have been an out?  If so, then out #2 would be the FC by batter #3... Thus if the "infield single" by batter #5 could have been deemed an out by the official scorer, then reconstruction and benefit of the doubt could result in unearned run.  I do agree with adbono about who's parent is scoring the play... As a P dad my son more often than not was on the other end where an "infield single" went against him... My favorite though was a double being scored because the CF wasn't sure which ball to catch ~:-|...

No, his point is that you can put a ball in play and have a FC with NO hit, NO out, and NO error.  Maybe it's supposed to be scored a FC, but sometimes called an infield hit.

@T_Thomas posted:

Even IF there was a play where a runner was ruled safe on a fielders choice, this doesn't relieve the pitcher responsibility for that runner.

Why?  Adbono is right that there should be another category, of fielding "misplay" that is not an error, for those cases.

@adbono posted:

An example (and one of my pet peeves) is when a MIF plays too deep, doesn’t charge a slowly hit ground ball, fields the ball cleanly but doesn’t get the throw to 1B in time to record an out. This is routinely scored as an IF hit. And if a runner scores as a result of that play, or that hitter comes around to score, it is recorded as an earned run.

Without a doubt my number one pet peeve. MOVE YOUR FEET!  Half the time it doesn't even have to be a slow roller for the batter/runner to beat it out.  (you can add, the unnecessary jump throw where the resulting throw is weaker than a shuffle and throw that the overall time of ball to base lets the runner be safe, to that list above)

Scoring:

There is no other reason for an unearned run besides an error or passed ball.  Fielder's choices (whether scored or not) do not prevent a run from being considered earned.  I think the scorer was being kind and not following the rules in scoring or simply didn't know and was applying his own interpretation.

It gets hard to follow when runs following errors in a long inning are involved not just the run as a result of the error, but my understanding has always been that any run following the error that scores because that error contributed to the inning continuing (ie would have been one of the three outs prior to additional runs scoring, whether the third out or one of the three) are considered unearned.  But before that "third" potential out any runs for base-runners legitimately getting on base via walk/hit/fielders choice/sac bunt, etc.  would be earned, only that original runner who was on base because of the error or the runner scoring as a direct result of the error is unearned.

Big Ben, Parliament.

I didn't say my example is not a fielder's choice. It is a fielder's choice. But it's not a hit or error.

As for the OP, with the information given it should be an earned run. The rules specifically say a runner who scores by the aid of a fielder's choice counts as an earned run. And a hit is a hit for purposes of scoring, regardless of whether it reached the outfield.

MLB Rule 9.16(a): The Official Scorer shall charge an earned run against a pitcher every time a runner reaches home base by the aid of safe hits, sacrifice bunts, a sacrifice fly, stolen bases, putouts, fielder’s choices, bases on balls, hit batters, balks or wild pitches (including a wild pitch on third strike that permits a batter to reach first base) before fielding chances have been offered to put out the offensive team

I am aware NCAA and NFHS publish their own rules without reference to MLB rules but they're not appreciably different when it comes to scoring. The difference is that the standard the scorer should use for "ordinary effort" when charging errors should be calibrated to the level of play.

Wish all you guys were scoring my kids' games. You actually care.

Hey, Adbono! Wassup?

I get amazed watching the scoring of college games.  You can tell who the coaches are trying to help and protect.  A player who is known to have a lot of errors made 3 in one game and their scorer gave our hitters hits on all three so that he would not have any more errors.  It was funny because when it happened I said that was an error and their fans said nope.  They will give that a hit because they don't want him to have any more errors and sure enough.  I thought.  How can you do that to your pitchers over your fielders?

@smokeminside posted:

Wish all you guys were scoring my kids' games. You actually care.

Hey, Adbono! Wassup?

Quite a lot is up with me Smoke. Let’s trade PMs.

Another questionable scoring issue.

New inning started - College game

1st batter single on first base

2nd batter grounder to 2nd base fielders choice batter out at first. Runner advances to second base. One out currently

Next batter passed ball runner to third. Batter then current batter flies out to center field with a ordinary distance fly out and runner tags from third and scores. Two outs

Next batter grounds out to third base on first pitch for third out.

The passed ball was listed in the official scoring and everything listed is on the official scorers document.

The run was scored as an earned run. How is this possible when he would have not scored without the passed ball?

They are two different plays:

1. The passed ball play was an error, which allowed the runner to advance from 2nd to 3rd. If the runner had scored on the passed ball (error) it would have been unearned.

2. The runner scored from a legitimate sac fly.  The run is counted as earned with zero aid from the defense on that specific play.