Unfortunate incident.

unknown12345 -- welcome to the message board and thank you for posting. I cannot allow your post to remain becausae I feel that it will add fuel to an already volatile situation. Most people here appreciate the perspective of players so, under most circumstances, we welcome your participation here. This is a sensitive subject and I encourage all that are hearing accounts of the incident to realize that there are two sides. I hope the baseball community in total feels bad that this type of situation occurred ---- similar to the reaction when many rallied around an injured player earlier in the year after another controversial play.

I also encourage umpires, coaches, and parents to do their part in encouraging players to reduce meaningless talk that leads to hurt feelings and angry rivalries. I love rivalries, but only when they remain sportsmanlike. Some will not agree with my moderation on this subject. I do it with respect to Plano and to our friends at East. I reiterate my regret for this incident.

PD,

I know nothing of this incident, but do know of players that in the course of their high school season, tend to lose focus/control due to the lack of consistancy that a summer select team provides. They become frustrated with the lack of production that they and/or their team demonstrate.

My question is: If you're an umpire (field or plate) and you hear catcalling and derogatory comments being emitted, do you step in to regulate or do you let it go? Where's the line so that safety isn't a factor?

GREAT question Collikar!

I have always wondered if there were any rules or regulations for the "officials".

I personally feel it's the coaches duty to help control the situation. But if thats not happening...??

I have many thoughts on the subject, but I don't think I can articulate them clearly tonight. We have umpires that post here. I think they should intervene in many situations. I also think coaches should play a large role. Your question is on target -- where is the line? Boys will be boys, right? When do the risks become too great?

I'm not sure what the post was about, but I do think that certain kids can get reputations for talking smack. Most of the time that's a bad thing, however, if the other players know a kid they might know he's just having fun with them. I think prior familiarity with each individual can affect this situation.

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coaches should play a large role.

Kyle -- the original post offered an opinion on the incident from another 9-5A player (outside of Plano). I explained why I removed it.

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Originally posted by Panther Dad:
I have many thoughts on the subject, but I don't think I can articulate them clearly tonight. We have umpires that post here. I think they should intervene in many situations.

PD during the plate meeting with the coaches the last point of emphasis is that the two teams exercise good sportsmanship. However anytime you get involved in a highly contested game like Plano/PESH, Allen/Plano West, and other rivalry games where the players know each other and see each other every day the players have a tendency to push the bottom and attempt to cross the line. In my opinion, the umpires have a number of responsibilities on the field and one is to monitor the chatter from the teams so it does not get out of hand; a lot of the responsibility is with the coaches as well. As an umpire you have so many other things happening; being a chatter cop is just one of those responsibilities you hate as an umpire but you do have the responsibility to monitor the situation. Now where it is on the radar screen that’s a judgment for individual officials. As an umpire (field or plate) if you hear "catcalling" and "derogatory comments" being emitted as Collikar stated, there is a responsibility to step in and regulate the situation. It’s been my experience if you go to the coaches and ask for help it usually stops. However, as long as the chatter is friendly and in good spirit no matter how annoying it can be, it will be at the bottom of most list.

If the coach does not assist in controlling the situation, the umpires may exercise their judgment and take the necessary steps to get the players under control. The penalty may be restrictions to the bench and ejection from the game if warranted of players and coaches. I would say in 99% of the cases it does not reach such sever penalties because no coach wants to take the long drive down I-35.

Team behavior is dictated and tolerated by the direction provided by coaches. (yes parents are responsible for raising their children) but its the coach who fills in the line up card.

In sports, there is more to being a coach than simply filling out the line up card with what you deem to be the best 9.

Unfortunately, too often coaches misinterpret poor behavior and "trash talk" for leadership and this sends the wrong message to players and the parents.

Trash talk should no longer be viewed and tolerated as "cute" and "harmless" but rather recognized for what it really is - "mean spirited behavior by insecure people". This also goes for bat throwing, helmet slamming and the dropping of F bombs as you run down to 1st base.

Coaches do your job or find a new profession. This goes for the AD as well.

JMO.

I never heard about what happened at this game. But, I think firing a coach or an AD is taking a way too extreme action for a kid blaring out the 'F' word after being thrown out at first or chattering. These kids are competing so things like that are going to happen. As for the chatter, it makes it fun for the kids and I really don't mind it. Every kid ought to be used to it by now. It shows they are paying attention and keeps their mind in the game. I think coaches should let them do chatter as much as they want UNTIL it gets personal. That's when it needs to stop. Every kid should be punished for throwing bats or helmets. That's just acting like a baby. But I would never want someone to lose their job over it.

Simple fix for helmet throwing. When a kid throws his helmet after striking out --- the coach should make him wear it into the field. It will be the last time the kid does it. My concern isn't with a kid's reaction to a strikeout. I agree with texasbaseballfan. As a dad, I will steer my son in the direction I think he should go -- that is my responsbility. Coaches should control the collective unit. Umpires should control the game.

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Every kid ought to be used to it by now.

No.

I have no kids playing any longer, but I still try to travel the area and watch a lot of games.

If the umpire "controls the game" and tries to baby sit these kids (and sometimes coaches & fans) then they are ragged on for having "rabbit ears."

Which is it? Controlling the game or having rabbit ears? Do you want the umpire concentrating on the game, or on what's being said by a third string outfielder from the dugout?

Know how to handle yourself and how to play the game. It's one thing if a kid utters something that he can hear and the people immediately around him can hear, but completely different when the entire county can hear him.

Using the competitive nature is a copout. I competed just as hard. How do you react in your job and life? Maybe I just didn't act that way because I was more concerned with what my parents thought of me.

I am not suggesting a heavy-handed approach to controlling a game -- that's why it's a fine line -- as collikar suggested in her earlier post.

To me, it's up to the Coach and the Parents. The coach can bench a player or make him run until he pukes....the Parents can teach little Johnny that the name on the back of thier uniform is on loan.

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Originally posted by texasbaseballfan:
Team behavior is dictated and tolerated by the direction provided by coaches. (yes parents are responsible for raising their children) but its the coach who fills in the line up card.

JMO but...I have been to many of the games hotly debated on this website over the years (not the PESH/PSHS though) and the actions of parents and "fans" has been as bad or worse than any I have seen on the field. Then I will read on this site that the "other" side was completely at fault and zero accountability accepted for the actions of their own side.

Now we expect high school kids to not chatter, talk trash and have good sportsmanship when it is clear there has never been this example ever exhibited to them based on the actions in the stands.

Believe it or not I have made a complete jackass out of myself in the stands (and on the field) before and had the proverbial "do as I say not as I do" conversation.

So it should come as no surprise to me or any other parent if my\our high school age kids actions are reflective of those they see from the stands or in the house or in day to day life.

IMO it is not the coaches, umpires or teammates responsibility to fix what I as a parent may have screwed up. It is my responsibility to "fix it" and theirs to dish out the punishment or praise for my kids actions.

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Originally posted by KellerDad:
To me, it's up to the Coach and the Parents. The coach can bench a player or make him run until he pukes....the Parents can teach little Johnny that the name on the back of thier uniform is on loan.

Chatter from one team to another does not make it fun for the kids! There will be one team, one player from one team, that will be angered by the "chatter". Players should root for their teammates ONLY!

I agree with most on this thread, yapping (unacceptable behavior) is learned/tolerated at home. Then it is tolerated by the coach/es, then it is tolerated by the umpires. If parents and coaches, last line of defense, do their jobs, umpires won't have to mediate chit chat amongst players.

Parents should be held most accountable..."let he who is without sin cast the first stone"...I am as guility as anyone for tolerating/allowing this type of behavior to exsist. I have <6 months before my son goes to college. I think I will concentrate on trying to teach him to be a man who loves God first, his neighbor second and himself third.

I allow the talk to go on until it becomes a personal attack then i put a stop to it by talking to the coach or most of us umpires know someone on each team and i will just find that peron between innings and just quitly say can you tell so and so to watch his mouth. Alot of times if done the right way the kids will police themselves.
I had to defuse another type situation the other night and it was not caused by the young men on the field rather by a grown up in the pressbox who was playing the walk up music right up until the time that the ball was about to leave the pitchers hand.This got the fans bickering by and forth which got the kids doing it. I spoke with the head coach and he put a stop to it. Not everything is started on the field

Cheapseats, I respectfully disagree with your post. As long as this thread is void of names, teams etc, I think it could be beneficial. When I typed my post, I didn't have one game in particular in mind but rather a whole collection of games that could build up to a potentially ugly incident.

All - let's remember there were TWO players involved. We seem to be debating the actions of one and not the other. Whether it was intentional or unintentional a player was hurt and out for the rest of the season.

Time to shut this one down...

Kirk - It is not void of names or team names, it is a Plano/Plano East incident thread...there is one player name all over the place, the other name has not been mentioned except for the post that was deleted after 10 minutes (and yes, it should have been deleted)

This discussion should be held in another thread...this one is labeled Plano/Plano East incident.

I agree with cheapseats. I think it's ok to discuss this subject, but under a new topic. I do think the direction of the discussion here is one-sided.