Will it is indeed a different world with different types of people than back in the old days. I know a guy who's a head coach who played in the state championship series but lost. He is not getting bombarded by parent complaints about some of his decisions. This is a guy who routinely wins around 20 games a year.
That being said - it doesn't mean successful coaches like this know everything but they probably know more than the complainers.
I have found if you manage expectations up front before the season starts - tell players exactly what their role is privately, give them the option to stay or go - you will eliminate the "playing time" discussion. Players and parents seem to be able to deal with a tangible - it's the unknown that causes the unrest. Again, the parents should not be running program.
BVers21, thank you. This is a very interesting thread. 2B's HS team is "between coaches"...again. We are a small school, and players can play as soon as they make the team. We end up with a lot of JV parents who think that just because their son was a small field stud, he should be starting on varsity in the 7th grade. These parents don't mind going to the principal or the AD or the coach upon the slightest perceived provocation. Our principal and the AD have a history of not supporting coaches that particular parents don't like. This year, we had a womens basketball coach who had a record of something like 30-1 (the one loss was the state championship game!!) and was fired because some parents didn't like her. Unbelievable.
Anyway, there were a couple of mistakes our former baseball coaches made that maybe you could learn from.
Our first coach we liked a lot. Primarily because he liked 2B.
Plus he was an assistant scout for the Dodgers, and he knew baseball. We still consider him a friend and a great pitching coach. But he didn't manage the JV parents very well, and was pretty well run out of town. Some of the varsity parents didn't like him, either, but the witch hunt was mostly led by the JV parents. Anyway, this coach had no patience for whiny parents, but instead of ignoring them, he would send out these long diatribes by email to everyone. Once the AD and the Principal got copied zillions of times on these emails and the gazillions of responses, they had enough and the coach was asked to resign. The lesson learned: I think you should take seriously the posts here about developing people skills.
Our second coach was OK. He loved the game and the boys, but didn't know a whole lot more than I do(IMO). Coaching consisted of "make good throws!" "throw strikes!" "Hit the ball!" And he tended to prefer the flashy player who makes every throw off-balance and makes a lot of errors, but his plays look ama-za-zing so everyone thinks he is awesome, over the solid one who has better range and footwork and a stronger arm and makes almost every play look routine. But I digress... At least teaching no footwork is better than teaching bad footwork. I believe he resigned the coaching position due to academic reasons, rather than baseball, but I don't know for sure. Anyway, his biggest problem was not being able to give a solid answer when a player or parent asked about playing time. Of course parents were not supposed to ask about playing time, but there's no stopping them. Anyway, for one particular position, his reason for playing Player #1 over Player #2 was because he was afraid of being called a racist. It seems to me like a good coach, when asked, should be able to tell the non-starter, regardless of race, ethnicity, whatever, what he needs to work on to be able to earn the position. Not, well, kid, you are the better player but I can't play you because they'll call me a racist.
Sorry for the long post! It took them a month to post the coaching position, and I have a feeling it's going to go to the winner of a popularity contest, rather than the most qualified applicant. I needed to vent!
Anyway, there were a couple of mistakes our former baseball coaches made that maybe you could learn from.
Our first coach we liked a lot. Primarily because he liked 2B.
Plus he was an assistant scout for the Dodgers, and he knew baseball. We still consider him a friend and a great pitching coach. But he didn't manage the JV parents very well, and was pretty well run out of town. Some of the varsity parents didn't like him, either, but the witch hunt was mostly led by the JV parents. Anyway, this coach had no patience for whiny parents, but instead of ignoring them, he would send out these long diatribes by email to everyone. Once the AD and the Principal got copied zillions of times on these emails and the gazillions of responses, they had enough and the coach was asked to resign. The lesson learned: I think you should take seriously the posts here about developing people skills.Our second coach was OK. He loved the game and the boys, but didn't know a whole lot more than I do(IMO). Coaching consisted of "make good throws!" "throw strikes!" "Hit the ball!" And he tended to prefer the flashy player who makes every throw off-balance and makes a lot of errors, but his plays look ama-za-zing so everyone thinks he is awesome, over the solid one who has better range and footwork and a stronger arm and makes almost every play look routine. But I digress... At least teaching no footwork is better than teaching bad footwork. I believe he resigned the coaching position due to academic reasons, rather than baseball, but I don't know for sure. Anyway, his biggest problem was not being able to give a solid answer when a player or parent asked about playing time. Of course parents were not supposed to ask about playing time, but there's no stopping them. Anyway, for one particular position, his reason for playing Player #1 over Player #2 was because he was afraid of being called a racist. It seems to me like a good coach, when asked, should be able to tell the non-starter, regardless of race, ethnicity, whatever, what he needs to work on to be able to earn the position. Not, well, kid, you are the better player but I can't play you because they'll call me a racist.
Sorry for the long post! It took them a month to post the coaching position, and I have a feeling it's going to go to the winner of a popularity contest, rather than the most qualified applicant. I needed to vent!
quote:but instead of ignoring them, he would send out these long diatribes by email to everyone.
Our coach never sends out an email of any type. The 'team mom' takes care of any informational emails concerning practice times, schedules and changes, directions, etc. We had one unhappy parent last year that sent a flaming email (seems the rest of us were way too happy with the coach his policies). It was simply ignored by most of us and it quickly died....
Since our coach's only communication is a short note at the beginning of the season that says 'see me if you have a problem' and then outlines the escalation path if it can't be resolved, there is very little for the disgruntled to latch onto...
IMHO, any email a coach sends explaining or defending his policies will just be twisted and spun by those that are unhappy.
quote:IMHO, any email a coach sends explaining or defending his policies will just be twisted and spun by those that are unhappy.
Bingo.
Hawk is correct - the best way to deal with a player is face to face. Email is a cowards' way of dealing with an unpleasant situation. I hear stories of emailing diatribes from immature Coaches occasionally, usually they quit or they are asked to leave. FYI - you can't email on the field. A coach who cannot communicate face-to-face, probably is not who you want mentoring your son.
On another note - I see no reason why you need a "team mom" in HS sports. Perhaps there lies part of the problem. IMO, "Team Mom's" (or Dad's) should be delegated to Little League and Booster Clubs. Organizing a HS team is the Coaches job. Once the door is open, be ready for the line behind the team mom to form - Booster Club Pres- Varsity Club board-- all willing to step in to suggest where to play "Johnny" and how many at-bats he deserves. A HS team is not a democracy - it is to mentor young men and win games. Period.
On another note - I see no reason why you need a "team mom" in HS sports. Perhaps there lies part of the problem. IMO, "Team Mom's" (or Dad's) should be delegated to Little League and Booster Clubs. Organizing a HS team is the Coaches job. Once the door is open, be ready for the line behind the team mom to form - Booster Club Pres- Varsity Club board-- all willing to step in to suggest where to play "Johnny" and how many at-bats he deserves. A HS team is not a democracy - it is to mentor young men and win games. Period.
ball4 with all due respect running a high school program isn't as cut and dry as your posts lead some to think. I'm not trying to be a flamer here but just putting out there what I have went through and other coaches that I know.
It doesn't matter if you have a face to face sit down with players and parents about whatever you need to talk about - if a parent wants to talk and raise cane then they will. Nothing can stop them and as 2Bmom has put; the administration might just listen to them. The job security of a high school coach is just as good as the integrity of the administration. If you have an administration with backbone then your job is safe (as long as you do it correctly) but if they lack a backbone then you have no idea if your job is safe or not (regardless of how successful you are). There are idiots in this world and they have the awful habit of proving it when they speak. That includes parents, coaches, teachers, lawyers, doctors and any other category you can come up with. You can't stop them. The reason you have those meetings is to cut off any problems with the rational parents which make up the majority of parents.
A head coach can only do so much in the limited time he has in a day. That is why you have to rely upon parents for some things. When I first became a head coach the paretns were terrible and tried their best to get me fired for whatever reason. Thankfully I had a great administration to back me but because I felt like I couldn't trust any of the parents I did everything myself - run practice, work on the field, schedule games, raise money, take care of stats etc.... Plus I was preparing for 6 classes a day, teaching 6 classes a day, grading papers for 6 classes and other things. It got to be way too much and I got swamped. Things suffered and I decided I needed help. By this point I had been there several years and been consistent with how I did things and the parents were no where near as bad as they were when I started. I would let one parent do a small job here and there and it went well. I finally went and formed a loose booster club. I basically got the parents who are the ones who always do the work and went with them. I told them it does stink that others wouldn't help but we could either sit around and complain (which would accomplish nothing) or realize it is what it is and get to work. To their credit they got to work.
Once I had a booster club it freed me up from many hats I had to wear. I can't begin to describe how much easier my job became. You have to have parents involved in many aspects of the program to make things work.
It doesn't matter if you have a face to face sit down with players and parents about whatever you need to talk about - if a parent wants to talk and raise cane then they will. Nothing can stop them and as 2Bmom has put; the administration might just listen to them. The job security of a high school coach is just as good as the integrity of the administration. If you have an administration with backbone then your job is safe (as long as you do it correctly) but if they lack a backbone then you have no idea if your job is safe or not (regardless of how successful you are). There are idiots in this world and they have the awful habit of proving it when they speak. That includes parents, coaches, teachers, lawyers, doctors and any other category you can come up with. You can't stop them. The reason you have those meetings is to cut off any problems with the rational parents which make up the majority of parents.
A head coach can only do so much in the limited time he has in a day. That is why you have to rely upon parents for some things. When I first became a head coach the paretns were terrible and tried their best to get me fired for whatever reason. Thankfully I had a great administration to back me but because I felt like I couldn't trust any of the parents I did everything myself - run practice, work on the field, schedule games, raise money, take care of stats etc.... Plus I was preparing for 6 classes a day, teaching 6 classes a day, grading papers for 6 classes and other things. It got to be way too much and I got swamped. Things suffered and I decided I needed help. By this point I had been there several years and been consistent with how I did things and the parents were no where near as bad as they were when I started. I would let one parent do a small job here and there and it went well. I finally went and formed a loose booster club. I basically got the parents who are the ones who always do the work and went with them. I told them it does stink that others wouldn't help but we could either sit around and complain (which would accomplish nothing) or realize it is what it is and get to work. To their credit they got to work.
Once I had a booster club it freed me up from many hats I had to wear. I can't begin to describe how much easier my job became. You have to have parents involved in many aspects of the program to make things work.
quote:Email is a cowards' way of dealing with an unpleasant situation. I hear stories of emailing diatribes from immature Coaches occasionally
So is sending an unsigned letter to a coach. And those happen too
Coach 2709 - With all due respect likewise -
I think it depends where your program is - our is Northern VA - where the coaching staff is 4+ deep through-out the region -- we have a coaching staff of 6 on Varsity alone.
My point is parents can easily misinterpret their donation of time or money as a "quid pro quo". Or let me give you my opinion on this.
I have no problem with boosters organizing fundraisers - tell me where to be and who needs to be there.
Managing expectations is that cut and dry. It was done this past year. Some of the returning Seniors would have been cut - they were not because they had been with the program from the start. They were told what their role would be - they were given the choice to stick it out or not. Not a peep out of them or their folks. If our program can sit down with 22 players and let them know what their role is, then I suspect most programs can do the same. Can it be adjusted? Absolutely if a player is not performing.
I think it depends where your program is - our is Northern VA - where the coaching staff is 4+ deep through-out the region -- we have a coaching staff of 6 on Varsity alone.
My point is parents can easily misinterpret their donation of time or money as a "quid pro quo". Or let me give you my opinion on this.
I have no problem with boosters organizing fundraisers - tell me where to be and who needs to be there.
Managing expectations is that cut and dry. It was done this past year. Some of the returning Seniors would have been cut - they were not because they had been with the program from the start. They were told what their role would be - they were given the choice to stick it out or not. Not a peep out of them or their folks. If our program can sit down with 22 players and let them know what their role is, then I suspect most programs can do the same. Can it be adjusted? Absolutely if a player is not performing.
Ball4 I agree that if the program has several coaches that it helps overall in terms of getting things done. But the vast majority of teams at the high school level don't have this opportunity. Telling everyone what the deal is and their role early in the preseason is great but it still doesn't stop some parents. I used to do all that myself but some parents just have this idea that when they ask / demand / consult / cuss out the coach then it will happen. One thing that helps (and I bet your team's coach falls into this category) is to have a coach who has been there a while with success. Having this type of coach helps to stop the complaints up front but not always. It sounds like you got a great situation with your team.
Neither are parents. You can privately doubt the coaches abilities all you want but you do not have the right to complain at all. What if the coach does have those "scout" skills but he still doesn't think a kid is any good but the parent does? Do you still have the right to complain? Not at all.
Judging talent is very difficult and the people who are paid to do it sometimes fail at it - remember Mike Piazza? Got drafted as a favor and turned out to be one of the greatest hitters in the game. You're right that most of the time high school coaches aren't the best judges of talent but that still isn't a good indicator of whether they can coach or not.
The draft this past week had 5 guys I used to coach against get drafted. Ranging from the 2nd round down to the 43 round. I knew most of them would get drafted but two surprised me. When I coached I had a kid (and his parents) who swore up and down he would play shortstop at the University of Kentucky. I didn't think he had a chance to play there and told him if he played at the next level it would be at a lower level. Plus if he did play it would be as a 2B or corner OF. They didn't agree with me at all and complained quite a bit. He tried out at UK several times but got cut each time and played at a JUCO - playing 2B and OF but quit there because he didn't agree with the coach.
So - no parents have no right to complain over playing time at all in any situation. Only time parents have the right to complain is if the kids health is in trouble - that's it.
quote:You have every right to doubt about the HS coaches' creditability and to complain about the playing time, but that only depends on how do you define "talents". It's not easy to be a good scout. Most HS are not scouts.
Neither are parents. You can privately doubt the coaches abilities all you want but you do not have the right to complain at all. What if the coach does have those "scout" skills but he still doesn't think a kid is any good but the parent does? Do you still have the right to complain? Not at all.
Judging talent is very difficult and the people who are paid to do it sometimes fail at it - remember Mike Piazza? Got drafted as a favor and turned out to be one of the greatest hitters in the game. You're right that most of the time high school coaches aren't the best judges of talent but that still isn't a good indicator of whether they can coach or not.
The draft this past week had 5 guys I used to coach against get drafted. Ranging from the 2nd round down to the 43 round. I knew most of them would get drafted but two surprised me. When I coached I had a kid (and his parents) who swore up and down he would play shortstop at the University of Kentucky. I didn't think he had a chance to play there and told him if he played at the next level it would be at a lower level. Plus if he did play it would be as a 2B or corner OF. They didn't agree with me at all and complained quite a bit. He tried out at UK several times but got cut each time and played at a JUCO - playing 2B and OF but quit there because he didn't agree with the coach.
So - no parents have no right to complain over playing time at all in any situation. Only time parents have the right to complain is if the kids health is in trouble - that's it.
There are various types of coaches:
01-- the coach who belives that his seniors start no matter what
02-- the coach who puts his team together in the way he seems best fit , regardless of titles.
03- the coach who puts the teams together to win no matter what
04-- the coach who puts his team together with total disregard for sending his players to the college level
05 -- The coach who simple enjoys the game, is good for the kids and makes everyone happy
06-- the coach who could care less whether everyone is happy or not
Are these bad coaches? Not necessarily so---they all have their ways of running and coaching a team
01-- the coach who belives that his seniors start no matter what
02-- the coach who puts his team together in the way he seems best fit , regardless of titles.
03- the coach who puts the teams together to win no matter what
04-- the coach who puts his team together with total disregard for sending his players to the college level
05 -- The coach who simple enjoys the game, is good for the kids and makes everyone happy
06-- the coach who could care less whether everyone is happy or not
Are these bad coaches? Not necessarily so---they all have their ways of running and coaching a team
Coach 2709 -
Bingo. The program is good. But it's because of trial and error.
I also agree with your other post regarding complaining parents over playing time. Other than your sons' health --I might add one caviat, if the coaches' behavior endangers the players - drunk, inapproprate fraternization with the students, etc.
And TR - I think you covered them all. But I'm sure you have a preference?
Bingo. The program is good. But it's because of trial and error.
I also agree with your other post regarding complaining parents over playing time. Other than your sons' health --I might add one caviat, if the coaches' behavior endangers the players - drunk, inapproprate fraternization with the students, etc.
And TR - I think you covered them all. But I'm sure you have a preference?
quote:Judging talent is very difficult and the people who are paid to do it sometimes fail at it - remember Mike Piazza?
How about this guy by the name of Albert Pujols? Teams sure didn't think he'd do much either and look what he's done!
quote:There are various types of coaches:
Trhit
Imagine that!!!! Once i was working with a player and asked him where he went to school. I asked him when tryouts were for the team he said he was not trying out. I asked why. He said he did not like the coach. hey by what I have read on some of the posts over the years perfectly legitimate reason.Sad or what?
Will
very sad-- I played for coaches who I didn't get along with--but it had nothing to do with what happened once I crosed the white lines--I did my job
Ask Weaver about Palmer
very sad-- I played for coaches who I didn't get along with--but it had nothing to do with what happened once I crosed the white lines--I did my job
Ask Weaver about Palmer
quote:He said he did not like the coach. hey by what I have read on some of the posts over the years perfectly legitimate reason.Sad or what?
Wow. Suppose he doesn't like his teacher?
Or his boss in a couple years?
Had a goods one last night.
Up 6-2 going into bottom of 7. Starting pitcher threw 109 so bring in the relief. We throw a kid who has has success but only because of great D. Our logical and really only choice with a game packed week. He get 2 outs in 2 batters, then proceeds to give up 5 runs ( he had a little help, from a K-E2. ) But result was we lose. We huddle the kids remind them that no one person wins or loses a game, finished talk and here comes Mom out onto the field. (Of course we have rules against this) She approaches us 2 Coach an asks"What was that all about?" Why were you setting him up fo failure?" I'm just assisting, trying to build a younger coach, and she goes after him. He tried to explain his position, which she wouldn't even listen to. I jump in and ask if she meant we were trying to lose? The question didn't shock me as much as her coming out onto the field. This is for a 17U Legion team.
She has complained about her kids not playing (they get what they earn), and now about her kid playing. I reminded her of that.
Up 6-2 going into bottom of 7. Starting pitcher threw 109 so bring in the relief. We throw a kid who has has success but only because of great D. Our logical and really only choice with a game packed week. He get 2 outs in 2 batters, then proceeds to give up 5 runs ( he had a little help, from a K-E2. ) But result was we lose. We huddle the kids remind them that no one person wins or loses a game, finished talk and here comes Mom out onto the field. (Of course we have rules against this) She approaches us 2 Coach an asks"What was that all about?" Why were you setting him up fo failure?" I'm just assisting, trying to build a younger coach, and she goes after him. He tried to explain his position, which she wouldn't even listen to. I jump in and ask if she meant we were trying to lose? The question didn't shock me as much as her coming out onto the field. This is for a 17U Legion team.
She has complained about her kids not playing (they get what they earn), and now about her kid playing. I reminded her of that.
coach Labeots
Why are "you" setting him up to fail
Now that is total insanity.
this is part of the reason it is becoming increasingly more difficult to find coaches to coach.
Why are "you" setting him up to fail
Now that is total insanity.
this is part of the reason it is becoming increasingly more difficult to find coaches to coach.
as a coach you have to realize parents are idiots. I had a parent complain about her son playing on my 8th grade club team i coached this year...he was 0-30 batting with 18 strikeouts and she wanted to know why i had him bunt if someone was on base all the time....parents dont get it you just can't worry about it and in this day in age every one wants everything handed to them.
quote:
Originally posted by NCULEFT:
as a coach you have to realize parents are idiots. I had a parent complain about her son playing on my 8th grade club team i coached this year...he was 0-30 batting with 18 strikeouts and she wanted to know why i had him bunt if someone was on base all the time....parents dont get it you just can't worry about it and in this day in age every one wants everything handed to them.
Boy, you couldn't have hit it on the head any better! Today's society has become narcissistic to the max!
Sit around and blame the coach , compalin and whine and make yourself miserable , your son miserable and everyone around you miserable. Spend the rest of your life talking about how the coach ruined your kids baseball career and how he could have , should have , would have. Because thats exactly what you will end up with.
Or shut up and let your son understand that his performance will dictate his playing time. His work ethic and desire will determine his performance. Its his gig and he is the one that has to make his mark. Its not always fair and sometimes you have to overcome some tough situations. But that will never happen as long as excuses are used to pave the way for him.
Of course we have a bunch of kids that expect everything handed to them. Its hard to understand why its not happening when it has happened their entire life. When you have kids being raised by people that expect it to be handed to their kids what else can be expected?
Or shut up and let your son understand that his performance will dictate his playing time. His work ethic and desire will determine his performance. Its his gig and he is the one that has to make his mark. Its not always fair and sometimes you have to overcome some tough situations. But that will never happen as long as excuses are used to pave the way for him.
Of course we have a bunch of kids that expect everything handed to them. Its hard to understand why its not happening when it has happened their entire life. When you have kids being raised by people that expect it to be handed to their kids what else can be expected?
"Parents are idiots" No they are not ALL idiots as a matter of fact the great majority of them are just fine. but it only takes one of the idiots to make a coaches life miserable.
