Update on Cowgill

It seems that the Maury coaching staff's desire for top seed bragging rights in the Eastern District Tournament is stronger than their commitment to protecting the well being of a minor. This is just more of the same from this program. The amazing thing is that Maury had three other strong arms that they could have used in this game with probably the same result.

Every kid is different. I come from a pitching family, and I have pitched at every level (Little League, High School, College, Minor Leagues). As an example, at 165 pounds (high school), it was often that I threw 130 plus pitches in an outing. Coby is much more solidly built than that, he has good mechanics, and he was being watched closely for signs of fatigue, (i.e. dropping elbow, collapsed back side, lazy pitches). Ask Granby how fatigued he was. Often in playoff baseball, a pitcher comes back on three days rest and is not as effective. That was certainly the case with Coby, but his health was not in jeopardy. What bothers me is playing a position after throwing 100 pitches, or throwing back-to-back days after as few as 30 pitches. I could not have thrown on back-to back days as my brother could, for example, but I could throw all day long in ONE day. As long as a pitcher takes care of his body between starts, is not over-used consistently, and has the natural capacity for throwing a lot of pitches, he can go. Ask Nolan Ryan what he thinks about pitch counts. It is said that he threw 259 pitches in an outing in 1974... He retired in 1993. Also, my experience with arm injuries is that other than tendonitis, they happen at any time, not just after hitting the century mark. Injuries, with all of the technology and science, are just as common in the era of pitch counts as they were before they were even tracked. This post is not to say definitively that young pitchers should all be allowed to throw 150 pitches in a start or come back to throw after three days rest but to suggest that every young man is different.

I heard from someone that Cowgill threw 120+ pitches in both 10 inning games prior to thecomplete game the other night. Not too mention the kid has probably had 4-7 starts prior. Is maury more concerned about winning the district, than protecting the young man's arm? The ironic thing that must be mentioned here is that their were rumors Cowgill was transferring to Greenbrier Christian. It seems like if Cowgill can find any advice from someone other than the Maury coaches then he should get used to the drive out to chesapeake.

Captainhasbeen

Formula 100 pitches = arm troubles.

It's a fact. Yes people are different, but for some reason that isn't a factor in determining pitch count. Everyone who throws a 100 pitches a game WILL develop arm problems.

It's a fact.

Doesn't matter who the person is, how he throws or any other factor.

Coby could throw 100 pitches every week until he's 44, and someone will stay say the coach needs to be fired.

Regardless, I'm going to enjoy watching the athletes we have in the region and write about their accomplishments. Cowgill is very competitive and it's fun to watch him pitch.

BTW, Abetz was warming-up in the third inning--the same inning that Maury scored six runs to go up 6-1.

I surely share your concern with pitch counts, but I wouldn't go so far as to say 100 is a recipe for disaster.

Early in the season, 65-75 is plenty, especially when it's cold. In midseason form, I would expect to see a drop off in efficiency (begins with losing command, not with losing velocity) around 85 pitches. By 100, you'll want to get the kid out most likely due to drop off in command. In a big game, a strong bodied pitcher can go as far as 110.

If a kid stays in the 90-105 range, with maybe an occasional 110, in my experience he'll be fine, especially if he's doing his conditioning off the field. What troubles me is when you see kids going 130 and more pitches week after week. That's just asking for trouble. Maybe it doesn't hit until summer play, or next year, but that trouble will come.

Then please explain the old timers who ALWAYS threw without a pitch count continuing to pitch year after year. If it is ALWAYS a recipe for arm trouble, please explain how Nolan Ryan threw for 20 years after throwing without pitch counts (remember the 259 pitches comment). Also, explain how Mark Prior, with all of the babying he has received throughout his career, still can't get out of his own way. There ARE differences in kids. My brother, who threw at VMI, was dealt a career ending blow when he found out his shoulder was predisposed to injuries... Genetics! He still has arm problems. I have never had shoulder problems, and I have been throwing well over 100 pitches a start for years. I even threw back-to-back 9 inning games in a national tournament years back. I am now an old man, but I continue to throw, never having had surgery, and with nothing more than the occasional tendonitis issue. My brother was better than I was (lefty), but never even got the chance... Genetics, remember? So please explain how some kids can throw every day (rubber arms) without injury, but it is ALWAYS a recipe for disaster for a kid to throw 150 pitches. I could NEVER throw back-to-back days if I threw more than about 20 pitches. That is like saying that no one should ever run 23 miles... Except that there are those who run marathons often. Just because most people probably have no business running marathons doesn't mean that no one should. Only time will tell if a pitcher will be injury prone. With all of the injuries in baseball today, one wonders if pitch count is really all that relevent. Injuries SHOULD be few and far between, right? Ask Nolan Ryan or Leo Mazzone. Leo once said about pitch counts, "I don't want to see them, my eyes are gonna tell me more than any (expletive) number."

I agree that some folks have more durability. But in the pros, there is sort of a natural selection process that takes place in the minors. We've all known outstanding young talent, careers derailed by the injury bug. Well, there you go. The weaker ones get weeded out early.

In high school, though, you're dealing with everyone, not just the fittest survivors. And even with them, they are often not fully physically mature or properly conditioned. Most of them also have mechanics issues that a pro coach could fix, but the HS coach hasn't got a clue.

The strain of throwing is also greater than it was a generation ago. Nolan Ryan was some sort of genetic freak, plus he was a student of mechanics and had extreme commitment to conditioning. There will always be stray exceptions. But the fact is, for years a 90+ guy was rare and if he wanted to have a long career he would have to "learn to pitch" as his velocity waned. (Think of Frank Tanana in the 1970's, or Tom Glavine today.) Most pitchers threw mid-80's and the Randy Jones (or today, Jamie Moyer) types were more prevalent.

Today we have 2 guys in our 7-team high school district who never throw a single fastball under 90, 4 more guys who hit 90 with some regularity, and more in the pipeline (underclassmen who will get there in time). And these kids are throwing more and more, playing baseball 10 months a year. It's great to see the kids do well, but you can't act like there's not going to be more wear and tear with that sort of stress on the parts of the body involved in throwing.

These days, even in MLB you see the very best pitchers go down every few years with some ailment or other. It's not unusual at all to see TJ surgery in top prospects; heck, the Yankees gave $3+ million to their first round pick next year, knowing full well he was heading for TJ surgery and a year of rehab before he could even pitch in the minors.

This may be heading for a reversal, at least in MLB. I see MPH readings falling like stones in the post-steroid era. Between ridding the game of steroids and the lowered stress, you may see better injury track records in the coming years. But that's not something that would affect high schoolers.

What troubles me about your post is that, while I don't know you or your motives, I most often hear that kind of comment from people who are trying to excuse (or even argue for) high pitch counts. My advice, for what it's worth, is to stop fooling yourself and be more responsible about how you treat teenagers and their futures.

so i was just wandering if anyone else noticed that the eastern district tourney starts today and ends tuesday. wondering how cowgill will be used in that 4 team tournament?????

My final point... I am not advocating "high pitch counts". I simply share Leo Mazzone's philosophy that they should not solely dictate when a pitcher comes out of a game. As for the number of pitchers throwing 90 plus, that is a function of dollars and technology (aka dollars), nothing else. It is the same as any other sport. More football players run sub 4.4 40s, more NBA players look like football players, more baseball players throw hard. Loads of money tend to do that to a sport, at every level. My motives certainly do not include hurting any young man on any team with which I am involved. Constant abuse by coaches is a problem, not starting on three days rest once or twice in a season. I am suggesting that there didn't used to be ANY pitch counts at ANY level, and somehow we have kept the sport alive and well. Mechanical breakdowns should continue to be the focal point when determining when a pitcher is "done". Coaching "ignorance" is a problem, but I cannot change my philosophy based on anothers' lack of experience or scruples.

Mazzone's philosophy was built on a throwing program between starts, as opposed to resting between starts. He believed in building endurance, even if at the expense of a pitcher losing his peak velocity. (Compare Smoltz's starting pitcher fastball velocity (94) to his closer velocity (98).) He emphasized location, esp. to the outer edge of the plate.

But I never saw the Braves throw a guy 130 pitches in the Mazzone era, not once.

I just dont get the Maury coaches, with Karter Rivera rested, and their 2 other arms rested why not throw them against Granby? Coby is a great pitcher but this is the 3rd time Granby has seen him now and im sure Coby will pitch against them in the playoffs,d o the coaches not think that Granby will start to catch on to Cobys pitches?

I have had the pleasure of actualy sitting and talking with Mazzone when he came down and ran a camp with us for Diamond Builders. He believes in throwing everyday. Only every fifth day was that all out however. In between days it might have been mechanics sessions, short toss, long toss, bullpen, footballs, whatever, but it isn't all out off a mound. Nolan Ryan had similar beliefs in the throwing everyday part, but Ryan also agreed in it not being off a mound. He said he threw flat everyday in between starts. Consequently he also mandated pitch counts being raised in the minors up from 75 - 80 to 100 in his organization. Take an example from wieghtlifting. If you workout they suggest giving muscle groups a light/heavy rotation. So we lift the parts but not always max'ed out. No different with pitching. they both tear down the muscles. If given proper form and rest, both will result in strength/velocity gain. If used to much/hard then they will break down and injuries will occur. the harder the thrower/the more weight lifted the more chance for injury. It's just good common sense.

In 1998, 49% of the 349 players who spent time on the disabled list were pitchers. In 2006, out of the 347 who spent time there, 69% were pitchers. That is eight years in an era where folks are increasingly more vigilant over pitch counts. Throwing with JUST limited pitch counts in mind is short-sighted, as pitchers lose the chance to learn to pitch "tired". Bad mechanics is the catalyst for injury, which is why it is so hard to recover from injury. One tends to find an arm slot or change something mechanically to make throwing more "comfortable". Anyone at both games Coby threw noticed the difference in "stuff". Coby actually "pitched" in the second game, and only threw with max effort when needed. His second start was much more impressive than his first. A source close to the program has said that he doesn't have to throw for at least seven days. As for the last post, I agree, except for the part regarding "the harder the thrower"... Nolan Ryan threw in the triple digits, and he threw very hard for a long time before he actually learned to "pitch". The answer is always in between, but to make a blanket statement about irresponsibility is just that, irresponsible.

You make some good points but the bottom line is that there is an element of Russian Roulette to using a kid this much.

This kid is obviously a gamer who always wants the ball. But that is just the kind of kid coaches have to be most careful with because he won't take himself out of a big game and because repetitive stress arm problems often take a few years to surface. Perhaps Coby is genetically, physically and/or mechanically better suited to high pitch counts than most pitchers, but no one really knows that to be true right now. He is only 17 years old. Seems like erring on the side of a little more caution would be wise. He obviously has the ability to pitch in college, it would be a real shame if that can't happen due to overuse now.

captainhasbeen

I was being sarcastic with my comments.

Actually, I agree you that you can't base a players injury solely on pitch count. Any player can hurt his arm throwing 100 pitches or 10 pitches. A pitcher could throw 40 pitches one day and injure his arm making a throw from shortstop.

The point I was trying to make was let’s focus on the players accomplishments instead of always mentioning the coach should be fired.

Lots of opinions out there on this issue; not sure anyone is wrong...but another post has this interesting article for your consideration:

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/highschoolsports/...811_youngarms29.html