Upper / lower body connection

I enjoy following your quest.

Tell me your opinion of the wrists and how they manage swing plane.

When the wrist c-ock with the bat out of plane the hands will automatically move inside as you stride. Two things happen. The hips get ahead without "thinking" getting the hips ahead increaing torque that gets effortless batspeed . Many great swings have the bottom hand work under the top hand . I think this keys the reverse to happen as the bat gets on plane. This working it under until it gets into tension and releasing this wrist tension as you get on plane gets what TOM G calls "the bat head a running start as the hips and shoulders turn the corner"

When the hips turn ahead the bat inertia pins the lead arm across the chest and the hands get launched very close to the shoulder with the barrel getting projected toward the oppo box but not casting.

Now you have an inside out/ circular path ( not knob to pitcher/ linear hand path)and the energy into the torso whereby the arms stay connected to the core rotation and not trying to extend to the ball.

If you look you just will not believe the bat tip positions of some great players employ to accomplish this
See Bagwell at frame 10-11. Is that bat out of plane as he starts to replace his stride foot or what

http://www.youthbaseballcoaching.com/mpg/bagwell1.mpeg

Look at the blur of bat speed generated behind him frame 17-18 and the contact point. He let the ball come into his zone but generated early batspeed.

Do you mean w/ the bat tipping towards the oppo batter's box?

I would never teach it but you see it. Babe Ruth did it too. Most instructors teach that as you stride to hit that you bat should come into the slot. They define the slot as splitting the helmet with radial deviation of the wrist and the wrist cocked. The bottom hand works more
underneath the top hand. The lead elbow points to the ground and the rear elbow elevates and through contact they reverse positions.

This position is probably best for all kids. The bat can be centered and in this position

I think a big change in thinking would be for people to quit saying thats just style. When you hear that you dismiss it as unimportant and meaningless. The better reaction is to say why does he do that and what purpose in physics does it fulfill for this batter. What is it he cannot do that this( style) allows him to do that IS a hitting absolute.?

Later in the frames you can see the top hands elbow straighten, some dare call this extension. I think of this as the hands needing to get out front for a complete follow through, not as extending to hit the ball just a natural part of a good swing. He is not reaching for the ball as some may understand extension, or the lead elbow would not still be flexed. Tough to see but the right elbow has some "extension" for lack of a better term, as contact is made. This is part of Bag's swing. The gif's posted by teach you see the same slight straightening of the right elbow. Centrifugal force pulling the bat head out from the center left lead arm holding it in, centripetal force, creating torque. Only thing that concerns me about using Bag's swing as an example is the hitch he has. Kids are not as strong as he is and wont be able to get the bat into the loaded position like he can. Freak of nature.

What about the wrists, after the bat c o c k and after they get into the swing plane? How do they manage the plane from there?

Teacherman

I think the arms control the elbow position and the wrist are not strong enough at that point in the swing because of the rotational force to do much except stay flat and transfer. When the lead shoulder continues its path back to the ctahcer the hook occurs as seen in the wrist. Yes strong hands are a good thing but flat hands are controlled ny the realtive elbow position IMHO..Is that response to the correct thought you had?

I think they play a role in keeping the hands flat. I'm not a wrist hitting coach. But, I believe you can lose connection at the wrists, when everything else seems in place.

I think the wrists need to hold their position against the resistance they feel or you can get a sine wave type swing. For example, if the top hand tilts upward from its flat position, then both hands and the bat are not in the same plane. Instead of the knob leading the barrell into the swing plane you have the barrell tilted up slightly. This creates a variety of problems. Many of which can be misdiagnosed as other things.

And, I agree the lead elbow plays a role in this. But, I think the lead elbow can look good and the wrists can be out of position.

I enjoy your posts.

Rod Carew used his wrists a lot in his swing so much so his bat looked like it had a hinge in it. He did not do the sign wave wrist action it was the flat through the zone, like swinging a hammer. Ulnar deviation, the sing wave gets produced when the batter gets out front or jams himself and then rolls Radial Deviation just to make contact. This looses power, ever try to drive a nail by rolling your wrist, sucks, takes for ever, no power. The term too much top hand comes from this if I am not mistaken.

The key to effective communication is to use the same dictionary, .

I'll admit, this is hard for me to comprehend (sinewaves, etc).
What I'm imagining is that the bat should be on the same plane as the forearm at contact. Is that too simplistic?

Yes, that is right and we're discussing some flaws that keep that from happening.

A lead elbow that is too low can cause problems. I'm asking swingbuster his thoughts on the role the wrist plays in keeping the bat in plane.

If you and I are on the same wave length, then yes you should be able to put a round plate of Glass on these guys shoulders and the bat head would follow the path of the shoulders and lead elbow.




About the wrists role in the swing. Each of these photos show the hand and wrists being used as a fulcrum to the lever(Bat) thus producing leverage. Should they roll over from flat with thumbs behind the bat the levers angle will change and leverage will be lost.

Hotcorner,

Do you have a video clip that you can direct me to or post of that Bonds still?

Thanks.

Sorry I don't. The still shots are from the photo galleries on MLB. There is a gif of Bonds and Puljos in the Terms and Definitions thread.

Sandman,

Perhaps you already have this address, but in case you don't here it is.

It's has more of the pro swings such as Basgwell noted in a few posts above. For some reason the website doesn't have a link from the individual clips back to this page.

http://www.youthbaseballcoaching.com/swings.html


If you don't have Quicktime software on your computer you can go to www.quicktime.com to download for free.

quote:

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Originally posted by SBK:
Sandman,

Perhaps you already have this address, but in case you don't here it is.

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Thanks SBK, but you're right, I do have them. AAMOF, though I didn't TAPE them, I had been compiling clips over the past couple years, then I put them in a web gallery (for a couple weeks anyway) and posted the link on several sites. The guy who runs youthbaseball then offered to host them, so I took them off my site.

The reason I asked for this particualar Bonds clip was simply that I thought I might take a shot at drawing the plane mentioned above over his shoulders, and I prefer to do that w/ video, because I can see the whole path of the plane, not just this moment in time.

Thanks,
Sandman

quote:

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Originally posted by SBK:
Sandman,

Perhaps you already have this address, but in case you don't here it is.

http://www.youthbaseballcoaching.com/swings.html

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OK... Got a good chuckle out of this since as sandman has told you, he is the one who compiled these video files I host on my site... thanks again sandman.....

On a side note, if anyone has video clips that they think might enhance this collection, please contact me.

Let me know when you get one of Rogers Hornsby, now there is a guy I would have loved to spend some time talking hitting with.

"I don't like to sound egotistical, but every time I stepped up to the plate with a bat in my hands, I couldn't help but feel sorry for the pitcher."
"Players who stand flat footed and swing with their arms are golfers, not hitters."

That's too funny!

So I guess you have seen them.

At least I found out who to thank for making them available... much thanks to you both.

I hope you do get more.

Cong - its very generous of you to host these videos. I've watched them alot, and learned a ton!!

having said that, in the hitting section of your site, I see several comments like:

"The batter should swing the barrel of the bat directly at the ball "

"The batter arms should be extended right before contact is made with the baseball"

after watching these videos, do you really believe these statements to be true?

I have a somewhat grainy clip of Rogers Hornsby but I am unable to post it. I can, however, email it if anyone is then able to post it. The clip comes from Ken Burns' Baseball series. It's an avi file.

See below...

Roger Hornsby from Sorpe...

WOW, does he start his hands low before loading. Everything after load is classic!

Check the catcher out. I wonder what his throwing hand fingers look like. I got to know a couple of old time catchers who are now deceased, their fingers were not pretty. Now I know why.

If this catcher was typical, I'd have to say the pitching is a little different nowadays. Could you see a catcher trying to catch Roger Clemens standing like this. His splitter would crack his cup. That is if he is wearing one.