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USC/Southern Game

K Kimosabe10+ posts
Did anyone see the USC/Southern game last night on ESPN2? I saw something I've never seen before: USC had a runner on 3rd, batter hits sinking liner to center. The F8 comes running in, dives for the ball and actually had the ball in his glove for an instant but upon falling and colliding with the ground the ball came out (to me, clearly no catch). The runner from 3rd scored. Then...the Southern pitcher threw a pitch to the "next" batter. After the pitch, the second base umpire, for some reason, decided to call the previous batter out. The announcers were dumbfounded and had no explanation why. The run was taken away. The USC coach argued and was thrown out. It appeared everyone except for the second base ump was left scratching their heads....does anyone have an explanation? It looked to me that the umpire ruled incorrectly and the wild thing was that the incorrect ruling came after a pitch subsequent to the play had been thrown.?
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Michael S. TaylorMichael S. Taylor1,000+ posts
I tried to watch it but fell asleep right at the beginning. I can think of no explanation the the strange events as you saw them. If he didn't call the catch at the time, I don't know how you can go back and get it later.
That said, this looks like a perfect example for a protest. Instead of getting tossed, make your argument and then protest after that.
D dash_riprock1,000+ posts
I think USC had a runner at 2nd, not 3rd. NCAA 3-man system is PU, U1 & U3 (don't ask me why the NCAA gives them those numbers -- kind of like FED calling the guy at 3rd R1.)

With R2, U1 is in the deep B (heels on the edge of the grass), U3 is on the 3rd base line at the TOP. U1 has the catch/no catch on the line drive. U1 also has touch of 1st by BR, and all plays at 1st & 2nd. U3 has R2's touch of 3rd and all plays there. PU stays home. Bottom line is, U3 had no business making that call.

Something else must have happened. U1 must agree to overturn his call. No one else has authority to do so.

Finally, throwing a pitch doesn't prevent an umpire from changing a call. The "before the next pitch" rule only applies to appeals and batting out of order.
Last edited by dash_riprock
P PGStaff10,000+ posts
dash,

Thanks for that detailed description, but are you sure about that next pitch rule?

I'd really like to know for sure, just in case we ever get in that situation.

If not "after next pitch" then when is the point a decision can not be changed? Without a protest, can an umpire change his decision after three or four hitters or even innings?

Don't think I've ever seen this happen before this game. In this case they had the call correct and made by the right umpire to begin with.

For those who didn't see it... The CF dove forward with the ball "snow coned" in his glove and the ball came completely out as he hit the ground. Not a catch! Yet the wrong umpire somehow changed that call after a pitch was made to the next hitter.
F 3FingeredGlove1,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by dash_riprock:
I have seen a run taken off innings later. If I recall correctly, the umpire blew a time play call and corrected it later in the game. It was a major league game, and would have been successfully protested if they didn't correct the call.

That was an Indians-Orioles game which took place April 28, 2007. An account of the event

It is an example of what Crew Chief Ed Montague called "umpire error" -- seemingly forgetting that a failure to retouch isn't a force out, and the umpires felt like they had to fix it. The Orioles, who were initially denied the run, didn't mention the issue until a half inning later.

There was no rules infraction by either team, simply an error in interpretation of the rules.
Michael S. TaylorMichael S. Taylor1,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by dash_riprock:
I need to amend my post above. U3 retains responsibility for "trouble balls" from F8 coming straight in or straight back, to the LF line. I didn't see the play. Did U3 go out on the ball? If so, the catch/no catch is his. If not, he stays at 3rd for all plays there, and U1 has the catch/no catch.


Dash:
I don't have a CCA manual handy but I don't think the U3 has any responsibility with U1 inside. On this play U1 can go out with U3 breaking into the infield to take the bases.
Midlo DadMidlo Dad10,000+ posts
What was really strange about it was that after the initial "no catch" ruling, the Southern coach came out and argued the call, but was turned away. THEN a pitch was thrown. AND THEN another ump overturned the call and ruled "out", end of inning.

Chad Kreuter (USC's head coach) went ballistic and was tossed. Not so good to get tossed, but I have to admit I don't know if I could've stayed cool in that situation.

I've never seen an arguing coach denied, play resumed, and THEN have the original arguing coach rewarded. I also think Kreuter must've really said something, because surely they would've given him some extra lattitude under those circumstances.

What made it even more bizarre was, the call was clearly correct the first time. Ball was never fully grasped in the glove, sloshed around in the pocket and came out immediately on contact with the ground. No way was that a catch.
Last edited by Midlo Dad
K Kimosabe10+ posts
I guess I was hoping some others would chime in on this. I am not so concerned about the umpire positioning. But I do have a problem with an umpire making a judgment call and then going back after a pitch(s) and changing his mind or being overruled after pitch(s) have been thrown. I know there are some rules that fall outside of logic but for the most part they are built around common sense. However, to go back and change a judgment call at any point subsequent to pitches, batters, or even innings being played is disturbing. Is there anyone else that can confirm that it is within the authority for umpires to go back after removing pitches/innings to change a call?? I hope not. I would rather an umpire get the call wrong than to go back, eliminating all play after the call, and change the play....especially on a judgment call.
Michael S. TaylorMichael S. Taylor1,000+ posts
I don't believe you can go back. What you can do is correct a player's mistake of what was called. That was my first impression of what happened. I was thinking he called the out but the BR missed it and stayed at first. Then after a pitch he noticed and removed him. This shouldn't happen but early in the season strange things can go on. However, with three man mechanics the umps would be in different positions from the OP so that isn't what happened.
D dash_riprock1,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by piaa_ump:
I would be very interested in the discussion in the dressing room after this game.

In my experience, there would be no way to make a change to this call once we had moved on....


There is no way an umpire can overrule his partner's judgment call with no discussion, and from what I've heard, the discussion came AFTER the reversal. Only the calling ump can reverse the call. Yeah, I'd like to be a fly on the wall for that post-game meeting. I also wouldn't be surprised to see the NCAA pull a schedule or two.
Bulldog 19Bulldog 195,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by Michael S. Taylor:
I don't believe you can go back. What you can do is correct a player's mistake of what was called. That was my first impression of what happened. I was thinking he called the out but the BR missed it and stayed at first. Then after a pitch he noticed and removed him. This shouldn't happen but early in the season strange things can go on. However, with three man mechanics the umps would be in different positions from the OP so that isn't what happened.


While that could make sense at times, I don't think this is one of those times. That would have been the third out of the inning.
Michael S. TaylorMichael S. Taylor1,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by Bulldog 19:
quote:
Originally posted by Michael S. Taylor:
I don't believe you can go back. What you can do is correct a player's mistake of what was called. That was my first impression of what happened. I was thinking he called the out but the BR missed it and stayed at first. Then after a pitch he noticed and removed him. This shouldn't happen but early in the season strange things can go on. However, with three man mechanics the umps would be in different positions from the OP so that isn't what happened.

I fully agree, I have no idea what really happened. I wouldn't be surprised it didn't make one of Dave's video clips he sends out during the season. If it does I hope someone posts a link.

While that could make sense at times, I don't think this is one of those times. That would have been the third out of the inning.

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