Velo is not Everything in D1

I guess I'm thinking a 90 velo is like a club pass where you might be able to get into any club.  That and dressing nicely and having a great personality and nice breath and good hair and a good-looking girlfriend might get you into the best clubs.

Anything less than 90, you're taking your chances with the bouncer.

This should get interesting. I would expect that the conversation will devolve into the same old discussion of: if you aren't throwing 90+ by your senior year of high school, you might as well play another sport. I have literally seen that comment before. It aligns with the same argument that if you aren't 6' there is no place for you in this game. That is another discussion taking place on this same forum. Don't get me wrong, I get it. Here's the thing, there are thousands of kids playing this game and they all have a chance to play at the higher levels if their work ethic and ability can get them there. Do you need velocity, absolutely. Is it required that velocity needs to be 90+ as a senior in high school, absolutely not. It's nice to have that ability and it will get you additional attention, but you can still play at many D1 level schools sub-90. I personally know pitchers that played at D1 schools that never touched 90. I know pitchers that are currently pitching at D2 that have never broke 85. With that said, control and command of multiple pitches is required of those who can't bring 90+ to the bump at the D1 level. 

And around and around we go...... so I'll try to keep this brief and off blast mode

From personal experience:

I have never seen a RHP with a low to mid 80's FB be actively recruited by a D1 college program. I'm sure there was this one exception to the rule, as with life, but they are extremely few and far between and my best guess is almost exclusively a lefthanded specialist. Now if the school is at rock bottom, and is having trouble getting kids to come and play, then you gotta take what you can get. I can understand that point of view. However, I'm not sure why someone would want to play for that team. Especially when there are better options/fits at the D2-D3-NAIA-Juco levels. Is it just to say that I played D1 college baseball??? You got to get over yourself if that's the reason. 

I guess it is that time of year for this topic to come up.   I'll agree that velocity isn't everything in D1, but it really, really, really helps to get recruited having 90mph velo, control, and a variety of pitches to set yourself up for having college selection leverage.  Also, it really, really, really helps when you have 90mph and two plus secondary pitches when you take the mound in college.   The velocity is there to show you have it when needed, and create a greater marginal of error.

Yes, there are outliers everywhere if you look hard enough.  The founder,Chairman and CEO of my employer never went to college...he's a bazzilionaire genius.  There are always exceptions to any rule.  Ten years ago, my oldest son was consistently hitting over 90mph prior to his senior year in high school playing on a national level travel team.  Nobody was beating down his door initially when we talked to the RCs.   90mph RHPs were a dime a dozen.  It was still incumbent on us to find programs that were a good fit.

Once my son started playing college baseball there was quite a few in conference starters touching 90mph with 3 pitches and some relief pitchers touching mid-90s with 2 pitches.   These were your top pitchers with a high success rate that the Coach didn't want to take out of the game.

Just my experience....

pitching fan Frannie this is u under another name right!!?

I think people mistake in game Velo for recruited Velo.  However, yes, there are exceptions.

A pitcher is going to be much more likely to be recruited to a D1 if he throws 90+.  Lots of pitchers who can throw 90-91 cannot control that velocity or sustain it for very long, which is why you will see D1 pitchers throwing 85 in game.

Also, there are 300 D1 programs.  The random Wisconsin-Milwaukee vs North Dakota State game is much closer in terms of Baseball quality to a matchup between the Top Two D3 teams than it is even remotely close to the level of Vandy vs LSU.

So yes, there are exceptions.  If you top out at 85 in a Showcase setting though, you are a longshot from being recruited D1.  That may change in the coming years when it becomes easier to get data on every recruit’s spin rate.

I'm not saying these were highly recruited guys but we have the conversation on here all the time that you have to be such and such to play D1.  I have realized watching mid-week games that that is not the case.  You can be a smaller player or not have the velo and still play D1.  I doubt any of these guys were recruited by anyone including the team they play for but they are playing.  They were on the same field as P5 guys last night even though they got beat badly.  I'm just reminding parents that if their son's dream is to play D1 there are schools out there that will take them.  They may never compete for a championship and may not even play on the weekend but they can play.

Everybody has their dream and many others will not understand the dream.  My son had the dream of competing in SEC.  He could have gone mid-major and been a starter and the man but he wanted to compete with and against the best.   He also desires to be a college HC some day so he believes he will learn more and get more opportunities to experience more on and off the field.  Some would disagree with his choice and do not understand it.  He has been blessed in his first two years to be a part of the SAC program and VolLeaders which is a leadership program for athletes at UT.  Has been blessed to meet and dialog with some great athletes and businessmen/women.  Some smart kids go to Ivy schools and some go to the local school.  All according to your dream and goal in life.  I just want to remind parents that dreams are possible.

Hmmmm.....if I didn't know better, I'd say you were watching my son's old team.  Almost identical numbers to what his teams had.   Oh, and yes, they also had a LHP that was 71 on his good days.

@PitchingFan posted:

I'm gonna go there and hopefully not be blasted this year.  I watched a D1, not great team, play yesterday who only threw 1 pitcher over 90.  The starter RHP topped at 84 but had great location and offspeed, LHP topped 81, RHP 91-94 with little control, LHP topped 71, RHP topped 81.  It is possible to play at a D1 without having the great velo if you are willing to play at a lower level D1 who might be rebuilding or struggling.  We make it seem at times like you have to throw 90 to be able to pitch at D1, especially RHP's.  That may be true for the top teams and P5 teams but not the case in lower level D1's.  Hope this encourages some parent or player out there who has the dream of D1.

I do appreciate the message, but these guys gave up 21 runs.  I'm not sure that's living the dream.

We played a D1 last night with similar pitching. One guy’s off speed was 67mph. Most were mid/upper 80s, but they lost by 20.  I’m sure that’s not fun for long.

@PitchingFan posted:

I'm not saying these were highly recruited guys but we have the conversation on here all the time that you have to be such and such to play D1.  I have realized watching mid-week games that that is not the case.  You can be a smaller player or not have the velo and still play D1.  I doubt any of these guys were recruited by anyone including the team they play for but they are playing.  They were on the same field as P5 guys last night even though they got beat badly.  I'm just reminding parents that if their son's dream is to play D1 there are schools out there that will take them.  They may never compete for a championship and may not even play on the weekend but they can play.

Everybody has their dream and many others will not understand the dream.  My son had the dream of competing in SEC.  He could have gone mid-major and been a starter and the man but he wanted to compete with and against the best.   He also desires to be a college HC some day so he believes he will learn more and get more opportunities to experience more on and off the field.  Some would disagree with his choice and do not understand it.  He has been blessed in his first two years to be a part of the SAC program and VolLeaders which is a leadership program for athletes at UT.  Has been blessed to meet and dialog with some great athletes and businessmen/women.  Some smart kids go to Ivy schools and some go to the local school.  All according to your dream and goal in life.  I just want to remind parents that dreams are possible.

I'm going to try to sum up the idea of this post as it comes up quite frequently:

If you are a RHP that throws in the low to mid 80's your dream of being a  D1 pitcher is on life support, but technically still considered alive. However, you have to be a week-day starter for a really bad D1 college team, and then be OK with getting your teeth kicked every time you take the mound. Now you won't be highly recruited, so you basically made this team because you are the best they can get. This isn't a good thing. To top all this off, it would seem to me the only reason you have this dream/nightmare is because you value D1 baseball above all other divisions. As if there isn't better options out there. There are great D2-D3-NAIA-Juco programs with proven track records of success. Finding the right fit both academically and athletically is where true balance exist. To those parents reading this, please stop believing that it's D1 or bust.

Sure, but the OP was  talking about an Ohio Valley Conference team that got boat-raced by an SEC team.  That's going to happen, and it's no fun for anybody. But maybe they do great in conference, and it maybe it's a better slot, educationally and otherwise, than JuCo, or D2, or whatever, for a particular kid.

At least it's not a football game and they are literally getting beaten up.

I believe people often confuse max and cruise velocity in these conversations. They also confuse there are various levels of D1. There are various levels of D3. I remember stopping on bikes to watch a D3 game with my son. He begged to leave. He stated (probably accurately), “These teams couldn’t beat my high school team” (3 D1 recruits, a D2 and 8 D3).

Back to D1 ... Maxing 90 in a top 100 opens the door. It means when adjustments are made a kid can lIkely cruise 87/88 with some semblance of command. I wouldn’t use opening weekend as a marker for velocity. Pitchers aren’t in mid season form.

I remember a few years ago Cal State Fullerton had a couple of studs who cruised 84/85. They took CSF to the CWS. They could spot a pitch in a dime. I believe both were drafted.

But if a pitcher doesn’t cruise 90 in the minors the only way he moves up is being perfect. One stumble and it’s release time. Mistakes thrown in the upper 80’s end up in the bleacher seats. Mistakes thrown mid 90’s are often fouled off with the hitter’s facial expression, “Damn I missed my pitch!”

If you’ve ever seen Louisville play you know what a constant parade of mid 90’s out of the bullpen looks like.

A few years ago I was watching the NESCAC tournament at Tufts. The Middlebury pitcher was 6’4” 215. It was so freaky to watch a kid this size only throwing low 80’s. But he had great command.

When my son was in high school if you looked at the team one kid in a uniform looked more like a ball player than all the rest. He was 6’4” 215. Twelve players from the junior year roster played college ball at some level. He wasn’t one of them. He kept getting chances. In two years of high school he never finished an inning. My son told me one time the coach commented, “He can’t keep sending him out to the mound to get his **** ripped off.”

From 8th grade on I gave the dad instructions (per his request) on how to increase velocity. The kid wouldn’t do the work. I told the dad in this league (large classification has) a kid throwing 80 has to have pinpoint command and a great breaking pitch. This was our third starter twice through the lineup. He was reliable for 4+ innings. The kid went on to D3 ball.

PF, I'm assuming that this D1 team is the one your son's team played. A couple things to note:
- on PG, this team shows about 4 commits per year, most with no FB velos posted. It's perfectly possible for a high school recruit to go look at PG's list of commitments and see which schools are committing players hitting 90, and which are not
- on this team's roster, 19 players previously played in college elsewhere, mostly juco.  So, they may have had juco experience that trumped velo; which goes to support the argument for going to a juco if your velo is not where you want it.

That said, given they are a regional state university, they have players from all over the country, which is mildly unusual.

As was said by some above, there is a big difference between in game velo early in the season vs. max velo. Once you get 90+mph in a Showcase or recorded game then that is there for life, even if you normally cruise at 83-4. Funny thing is that I have seen radar gun misreads at PG and PBR Tournaments, and seen the results posted for all to see. I once had my son at 100 MPH on my Pocket Radar  at a time when he was sitting 74-5.

    Velo is a mysterious thing. Some kids are very stable, and pitch within a small range. Others can have big jumps. My HS jr. has a buddy who just touched 90 in a workout that they were both at. He usually maxes at 83-4, and has only hit 90 on pull downs a couple of times. I have no doubt that i will see him at a game this spring and he will have a FB or two at 79-80.

    Another kid, now in college, threw 86-87 like clockwork during games in HS, and maxed out at 88. It took him two more years before he hit 90, which he then blew by, and is now hitting 95.

@JCG posted:

Sure, but the OP was  talking about an Ohio Valley Conference team that got boat-raced by an SEC team.  That's going to happen, and it's no fun for anybody. But maybe they do great in conference, and it maybe it's a better slot, educationally and otherwise, than JuCo, or D2, or whatever, for a particular kid.

At least it's not a football game and they are literally getting beaten up.

I think the one that I saw was from the bottom of the SWAC, but that isn’t really the point. It’s the false arrogance of having to go D1 in order to have some kind of amazing college experience? Just rubs me the wrong way as it steers a lot of kids astray.

I think there is a place for all who have decent talent and want to play.  I don't think playing D1 is end all for everyone.  I think all levels are options but you have to go where you are loved and want to play.  What works for my son doesn't work for others.  When you look at players not everyone needs to go D1, you have to do what is best.  I'm not trying to start a fight I just hear on here all the time that you have to be a certain size and a certain speed to play at a certain level but that is general not exact science.  I know 90 opens doors and mine was one of those that you had to watch several times to see the upside because he is not big and not consistently 90 but has been fairly successful.

Someone please explain to me what the benefit of an SEC team playing a lower level D1 is, this time of year? Who does it benefit?  The guys that got the crap beat out of them or the guys who now have decent stats?

P5 programs should be playing other P5 programs, not just the weaker conference teams.

Seriously, you DON'T have to play in D1 to have a great college baseball experience.

Try not to worry about anyone but your son.

JMO