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17 replies

Velocity FB vs off-speed

P 2013 Parent100+ posts
I tried to search but I'm afraid my question may have too many components because I couldn't seem to find an answer. My apologies if this should be obvious.

Is there a rule of thumb about ideal difference in velocity for off-speed pitches? For example, FB is consistently low-80s, so where would you expect the CB, CH, and SL to be?

Thanks.
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C cabbagedadHSBaseballWeb member since 2011
I'd say the specific answer is not necessarily obvious. I have heard a variety of answers from very qualified people. There is a recent thread that quotes 5-20 MPH. That's a really wide range.
IMO, you generally want about a 7-10 mph drop from your FB to CB and CH. If it is less, a hitter can take more of a see it/hit it approach with less concerns to timing. If it is more, the off speed stuff will be easier to hit because it will have more of a hump (thus more recognizeable) and allow for a bit of a mental reload or recovery by the hitter. I think this applies to a pitcher who lives in the low 80's with FB such as yours.
A slider is generally supposed to look more like a FB, so something with less drop in velo is OK.
That being said, every pitcher is different.

This is all JMO, I am not a pitching expert. This is what seems to work best for our HS boys and our opponents, many of who have similar velo to yours.
I will also say that I have seen big, slow loopy curves frustrate the heck out of HS hitters. I see very little of that at the higher HS ball level and above.
Last edited by cabbagedad
BOFBOF10,000+ posts
For a 82MPH FB his CU should be 8-10off so at 72-74.

You will see slow loopy curves and harder curves. With a 82MPH FB I would guess his to be in the mid to high 60's. I believe my son's CB was around 73 when he was throwing 86ish and it was considered a harder CB. He should probably throw two CB one early freeze pitch that is slower and loopier and a harder ahead in the count.

Forget the slider, don't throw one until he gets to college. All it will do is morf into a 1/2 curve 1/2 slider and potentially create arm problems.
GM Gingerbread Man500+ posts
My son throws his slider about 5-8% slower than his FB. His CU is about 10% slower.

Generally I believe in the offspeed differential range being in the 8-10% slower range. More difference than this becomes problematic to both deception and control, in general. In HS for example, an 85 mph FB followed up by an upper 70s offspeed pitch can be very devastating while on the other hand an 85mph FB followed by a 65mph loopy CB translates usually into a pitch outside of the strike zone and the batter not swinging at all.
P PGStaff10,000+ posts
GBM,

Actually most are more than 10% off the fastball. The slider being the exception for some. Very few can throw a true curveball within 10% unless they have a "slow" fastball. Also not many throw the changeup within 10%. The 8%-10% would typically be a slider, split, cutter or mthat type pitch.

Using a 90 mph fastball... differentials would generally be in the range of...

Slider - 8 mph off fastball

Changeup - 12 mph off fastball

Curve - This can vary a lot but about the same range as CH.

There are plenty of exceptions to the above.
GM Gingerbread Man500+ posts
PG,

I would agree with those numbers as far as "average" goes. that's what I generally see. My approach is always to push pitchers into throwing all their stuff a little harder because I believe it is easier to control and more effective to inducing swings. At the last tryout camp my son went to (end of spring season) his fastball was 80, his slider was 74-75, and his Change-up was 72.
Last edited by Gingerbread Man
CADadCADad5,000+ posts
Speaking of exceptions, how about K-Rod? There's less differential than in the past but that's still one fast curve he throws.

When my son was pitching his change tended to be a bit too stiff most of the time with only a 6 or 7 mph differential. The curve had a big differential close to 20 mph at times. Oswalt has been fairly successful with that type of differential or even more on the curve but harder tends to be a bit better for most.
Stats4GnatsStats4Gnats10,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by CADad:
…When my son was pitching his change tended to be a bit too stiff most of the time with only a 6 or 7 mph differential. The curve had a big differential close to 20 mph at times. Oswalt has been fairly successful with that type of differential or even more on the curve but harder tends to be a bit better for most.


The secret isn’t in the differential measured on a gun and then computed in terms of percentage of velocity change. Those things are pretty good guidelines, but no sure thing. The secret is in what the guy with the bat perceives, and there are many factors involved in that perception. Wink
GM Gingerbread Man500+ posts
The best offspeed will make the batter believe it is a fastball. This is why the offspeed, in my opinion, must be thrown as hard as possible but just be slow enough that it doesn't have a chance of making contact (good contact) with the bat. I have found this to be around the 8% differential +/- 1-2% either direction.

Lincecum probably has the best offspeed deception in the big leagues. He is around that 8-9% differential mark on his CU(9%) and Slider(8%) and led this year in strike outs.
P PGStaff10,000+ posts
Lincecum’s CH averages around 11 mph lower than his fastball. More importantly it is very hard to pick up.

When his fastball velocity drops a little his Changeup remained about the same speed. This resulted in a bit “less” success the past couple season… At least, compared to his Cy Young seasons.

Anyway I’ve read where his average fastball is around 93-94 mph, his average CH is around 82-83 mph. His CH is still thrown harder than most. Not sure what % that would be without the calculator.

The changeup is a great pitch because it has several ways to be successful. Speed differential, movement, location and deception. IMO, 12-13 mph is the best differential. Faster than that requires better location and movement. Too fast, looks like a BP fastball to hitters.

That said, Mike Boddiker once explained what his best pitch was. Of course, we were thinking he would say the curveball. He said the pitch that made him successful was a BP fastball with a little sink. He would bail himself out time and again, getting the groundball, throwing that pitch on 2-0, 3-1 counts.

Sometimes we talk about all the off speed pitches, when some have been successful by varying the speed of their fastball.
Last edited by PGStaff
GM Gingerbread Man500+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by PGStaff:
Lincecum’s CH averages around 11 mph lower than his fastball. More importantly it is very hard to pick up.

When his fastball velocity drops a little his Changeup remained about the same speed. This resulted in a bit “less” success the past couple season… At least, compared to his Cy Young seasons.

Anyway I’ve read where his average fastball is around 93-94 mph, his average CH is around 82-83 mph. His CH is still thrown harder than most. Not sure what % that would be without the calculator.

The changeup is a great pitch because it has several ways to be successful. Speed differential, movement, location and deception. IMO, 12-13 mph is the best differential. Faster than that requires better location and movement. Too fast, looks like a BP fastball to hitters.

That said, Mike Boddiker once explained what his best pitch was. Of course, we were thinking he would say the curveball. He said the pitch that made him successful was a BP fastball with a little sink. He would bail himself out time and again, getting the groundball, throwing that pitch on 2-0, 3-1 counts.

Sometimes we talk about all the off speed pitches, when some have been successful by varying the speed of their fastball.


Not to nitpick but...

This year his average fastball was 92.2 mph. His Change-up velocity average this year was 83.6 mph. That is a drop of 8.6 mph for a percentage differential of 9.3%

His slider was an average of 84.8mph for a drop of 7.4 mph. That is a differential of right on 8%.

His Curveball, one he hardly ever threw was of course different- more in the 15% differential but he only threw that pitch 6% of the time.

Here is the site I got the info from-

Lincecum's pitching f/x data
BOFBOF10,000+ posts
I am sorry but I have to laugh at all of this arguing about what is or is not ideal. As PG has pointed out there is no such thing.

If you want to really understand some of this stuff go check out hittingisaguess.com and get one of Perry Husband's fithly pitching books. He has taken the analysis to the next level as well as untroduced the concept of "effective velocity". A FB up and in has a 6MPH effective velocity difference to a FB down and away, which is enough difference to introduce a "swing and miss". Same velo pitch, different location. I belive book three is the most complete, but they should be required reading for all serious pitchers, and pitching coaches IMO.

That is all I really have to say about this. Cheers.
W WapakDad201310+ posts
I found this thread to be very interesting.
My son just attended a showcase and received some feedback on his velocity of different pitches.
At first, I thought the numbers seemed strange. The off speed pitches were much lower than I expected.
His fastball topped at 83, but was consistent at 81-82.
His change up and curveball were both at 68. As I said it seemed far slower than what I expected. It was, however, very effective to the few batters that he faced.
After reading this thread, it seems that he is not far off of the target differential.
W WapakDad201310+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by Stats4Gnats:
WapakDad2013,

Try to keep in mind what PG said. What’s ideal is very much driven by the individual. The numbers people throw around, are only GUIDELINES, not absolutes. Its so individual because of all the different pitching styles.

Stats4Gnats
I understand completely.
I said that I was surprised because I'v always heard that a 10 mph differential was the target for a change up with a curve ball being a couple mph different.

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