What would you relate inconsistent velocity to? Assuming a pitcher (HS Level) is well rested and not injured.
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Inconsistent Velocity
Here's another thread with a similar topic.
It is usually due to an inability to repeat mechanics which leads to an inconsistent mindset.
Flying open is very often the culprit mechanically on off days. Other times it can be overthrowing or it can be aiming the ball.
Velocity just plain varies a few mph for most pitchers from outing to outing in any case.
Here's another thread with a similar topic.
It is usually due to an inability to repeat mechanics which leads to an inconsistent mindset.
Flying open is very often the culprit mechanically on off days. Other times it can be overthrowing or it can be aiming the ball.
Velocity just plain varies a few mph for most pitchers from outing to outing in any case.
Cheesethrower,
I relate it to the general or non-existent training timeline of traditional pitchers whom are never in actual shape to pitch by always having to recover from their injurious mechanics
and rely on poorly designed training.
Rest = Atrophy, this is a fact not a guess, when you are resting you are detraining and the only way to consistently get faster until you reach your potential for your particular biological age is to train consistently to your peak then when you maintain and start pitching your ballistic training off the mound these fluctuations will not occur unless you are injured or your ligaments (gleno Humeral and UCL) are stretched out to the point where they cannot hold continuity in your mechanics that is an injury that you will not feel with pain.
You need to quit judging your velocity during fall and winter and just train your butt off until it is time to then perform in competition when it actually counts.
quote:“What would you relate inconsistent velocity to?”
I relate it to the general or non-existent training timeline of traditional pitchers whom are never in actual shape to pitch by always having to recover from their injurious mechanics
and rely on poorly designed training.
quote:“Assuming a pitcher (HS Level) is well rested and not injured.”
Rest = Atrophy, this is a fact not a guess, when you are resting you are detraining and the only way to consistently get faster until you reach your potential for your particular biological age is to train consistently to your peak then when you maintain and start pitching your ballistic training off the mound these fluctuations will not occur unless you are injured or your ligaments (gleno Humeral and UCL) are stretched out to the point where they cannot hold continuity in your mechanics that is an injury that you will not feel with pain.
You need to quit judging your velocity during fall and winter and just train your butt off until it is time to then perform in competition when it actually counts.
quote:Rest = Atrophy, this is a fact not a guess
So how come Marshall didn't pitch 9 every single day Yard..or throw 18 on a double-header day..it is baloney. Yes if you sit on your hounches for weeks on end, you certainly will atrophy, but to not rest after any full out effort is absurd. Name a single athletic endeavor where after a full out effort, rest (For some period..minutes, hours, days) isn't necessary before the next full effort..are you saying a guy can run back to back marathons? Before you start spouting nonsense about "better conditioning", you have zero examples of actual humans that you know who have successfully been able to perform at any level without resting...I know we helpless earthlings are ignorant so I await your enlightment on this.
Ironically after all that pontification of yours you hit the nail on the head with the comment about weather/time of year, velocity doesn't matter in winter and if your student goes to a winter camp, those giving the camp are aware that speeds will be down..at least in my paultry experience. Maybe PG or Tr have seen different but I doubt it.
Just from what I have noted over the years watching my son and his team mates pitch-
Velocity fluctuation happens due to several factors of the which I believe mostly comes down to preparation. I have seen tournaments where pitchers go from slow to fast after 3 days pitching their hardest in their last outing and have also seen tournaments where these same pitchers go from fast to slow by their last outing. How much rest they get, what kind of food they eat before a game, how much they warm up in the bullpen before a game, how they stretch themselves, etc, all seem to have an effect on how much they throw. Also factors like who their opponent is, who is watching also seem to have an effect.
As players get older, their pregame routine gets more and more similar, eating and rest habits get more similar, opponent status and who's watching gets similar, and pretty soon, they have established themselves a true routine coupled with a more repeatable set of mechanics and thus a more consistant velocity. A lot has to do with establishing a strong routine on the off days and get on a schedule for throwing.
I watched my own sons velocity fluctuate from game to game all spring and summer due to erratic starts, erratic bullpen sessions, etc and then this fall he really concentrated on establishing a weekly routine for throwing and was given better and more consistant pitch outings nad had just one catcher catching for him (very important) and his velocity became more consistant and he actually increased his average velocity about 4-5 mph over the course of 6 weeks.
Getting in a strong and consistant throwing routine during the week is largely the greatest factor in consistant velocity. Rather than look for peaks of velocity, I think it is more important to look at two factors- 1. average velocity is mainatained at a higher overall velocity and 2. logevity- that heightened velocity average sustainment lasts longer into games/pitch counts.
Velocity fluctuation happens due to several factors of the which I believe mostly comes down to preparation. I have seen tournaments where pitchers go from slow to fast after 3 days pitching their hardest in their last outing and have also seen tournaments where these same pitchers go from fast to slow by their last outing. How much rest they get, what kind of food they eat before a game, how much they warm up in the bullpen before a game, how they stretch themselves, etc, all seem to have an effect on how much they throw. Also factors like who their opponent is, who is watching also seem to have an effect.
As players get older, their pregame routine gets more and more similar, eating and rest habits get more similar, opponent status and who's watching gets similar, and pretty soon, they have established themselves a true routine coupled with a more repeatable set of mechanics and thus a more consistant velocity. A lot has to do with establishing a strong routine on the off days and get on a schedule for throwing.
I watched my own sons velocity fluctuate from game to game all spring and summer due to erratic starts, erratic bullpen sessions, etc and then this fall he really concentrated on establishing a weekly routine for throwing and was given better and more consistant pitch outings nad had just one catcher catching for him (very important) and his velocity became more consistant and he actually increased his average velocity about 4-5 mph over the course of 6 weeks.
Getting in a strong and consistant throwing routine during the week is largely the greatest factor in consistant velocity. Rather than look for peaks of velocity, I think it is more important to look at two factors- 1. average velocity is mainatained at a higher overall velocity and 2. logevity- that heightened velocity average sustainment lasts longer into games/pitch counts.
Jdfromfla,
Because he was slotted by others who thought they knew better where he should pitch and that decision was to relieve. Marshall actually performed 1.5 hours of wrist weight and Iron ball training at 6:00 a.m. every single day of the year even when he was competing, remember he still holds all the longevity records for relievers.
No Salami here either, when he was in his 50’s and still training and competing in high level adult leagues he pitched a full double-header on a Saturday for his team and then won the Florida state championship the next day Sunday by throwing 9 complete for the win. How about them apples!
One of his full motion trainees was challenged in the same manor and threw both ends of a double header just last year. If your mechanics are non-injurious the only thing that can limit you is your substrate storage capacity. Even I can pitch all day now and I’m in my late 50ies and could not do this when I was traditional 15 years ago.
This is not the physiological timeline for Atrophy and you do not know you do not know it, your response is part of the problem because you do not understand this. Why don’t you e-mail Marshall for an expert opinion on the matter.
I agree! With a maximal effort training workout you fully recover your substrate storage within hours and if you do not injure yourself can then compete the same day as an adult. If you compete with non-injurious mechanics you fully recover within 24 hrs as an adult.
Olympic trials, there is hundreds more where the mechanic is much lesser-injurious as in the traditional pitching motion.
No, I would never compare an aerobic competition where the substrate runs out then you have to metabolize blood energy for two straight hours and 1000 fold more effort (marathon) than a ballistic anaerobic competition where the work to rest ratio is so much more efficient and the substrate is always replenished by performing maximally for .2 tenths of a second and then a 30 second rest where if added up the total output of maximal effort would be for less than a minute with 90 pitches.
Spouting sports physiology is easy if you have actually looked into it, then it becomes sense.
Who said I did? I quoted the work to rest timeline for atrophy in that post did you crosscheck it for accuracy or just start ranting without knowledge. I believe over night rest is optimal.
But will you still believe yourself and the we whom always gets these physiological tenets wrong after I give it to you then actually take the time to crosscheck it.
Really, the most sought after information that they so dearly depend on is velocity, I’ve met very few, outside of College and HS coaches that understand peak performance and maintenance at the right time.
Don’t be so hard on yourself or me. I’m only here to set the record straighter, you should take it or leave it, big woop! When talking to a teenager about velocity fluctuations they don’t ever seem to get all riled up about it and he was who I was talking to.
I wouldn’t know? When I ask questions they never get answered even by the people who I would expect one from. So far CADad and TPM are the only one who will discuss reasonably without getting all Emo.
BTW, how was my prediction on that maluse (oops, I mean overuse) project and where is it at now, I want to read all the anecdotle beliefs in the PDF?
quote:“So how come Marshall didn't pitch 9 every single day Yard..”
Because he was slotted by others who thought they knew better where he should pitch and that decision was to relieve. Marshall actually performed 1.5 hours of wrist weight and Iron ball training at 6:00 a.m. every single day of the year even when he was competing, remember he still holds all the longevity records for relievers.
quote:“or throw 18 on a double-header day..it is baloney.”
No Salami here either, when he was in his 50’s and still training and competing in high level adult leagues he pitched a full double-header on a Saturday for his team and then won the Florida state championship the next day Sunday by throwing 9 complete for the win. How about them apples!
One of his full motion trainees was challenged in the same manor and threw both ends of a double header just last year. If your mechanics are non-injurious the only thing that can limit you is your substrate storage capacity. Even I can pitch all day now and I’m in my late 50ies and could not do this when I was traditional 15 years ago.
quote:“Yes if you sit on your hounches for weeks on end”
This is not the physiological timeline for Atrophy and you do not know you do not know it, your response is part of the problem because you do not understand this. Why don’t you e-mail Marshall for an expert opinion on the matter.
quote:“you certainly will atrophy, but to not rest after any full out effort is absurd.”
I agree! With a maximal effort training workout you fully recover your substrate storage within hours and if you do not injure yourself can then compete the same day as an adult. If you compete with non-injurious mechanics you fully recover within 24 hrs as an adult.
quote:“Name a single athletic endeavor where after a full out effort”
Olympic trials, there is hundreds more where the mechanic is much lesser-injurious as in the traditional pitching motion.
quote:“are you saying a guy can run back to back marathons?”
No, I would never compare an aerobic competition where the substrate runs out then you have to metabolize blood energy for two straight hours and 1000 fold more effort (marathon) than a ballistic anaerobic competition where the work to rest ratio is so much more efficient and the substrate is always replenished by performing maximally for .2 tenths of a second and then a 30 second rest where if added up the total output of maximal effort would be for less than a minute with 90 pitches.
quote:“Before you start spouting nonsense about "better conditioning"
Spouting sports physiology is easy if you have actually looked into it, then it becomes sense.
quote:“you have zero examples of actual humans that you know who have successfully been able to perform at any level without resting”
Who said I did? I quoted the work to rest timeline for atrophy in that post did you crosscheck it for accuracy or just start ranting without knowledge. I believe over night rest is optimal.
quote:“I know we helpless earthlings are ignorant so I await your enlightment on this.”
But will you still believe yourself and the we whom always gets these physiological tenets wrong after I give it to you then actually take the time to crosscheck it.
quote:“those giving the camp are aware that speeds will be down”
Really, the most sought after information that they so dearly depend on is velocity, I’ve met very few, outside of College and HS coaches that understand peak performance and maintenance at the right time.
quote:“at least in my paultry experience”
Don’t be so hard on yourself or me. I’m only here to set the record straighter, you should take it or leave it, big woop! When talking to a teenager about velocity fluctuations they don’t ever seem to get all riled up about it and he was who I was talking to.
quote:“Maybe PG or Tr have seen different but I doubt it’
I wouldn’t know? When I ask questions they never get answered even by the people who I would expect one from. So far CADad and TPM are the only one who will discuss reasonably without getting all Emo.
BTW, how was my prediction on that maluse (oops, I mean overuse) project and where is it at now, I want to read all the anecdotle beliefs in the PDF?
So when you say that rest=atrophy (And don't misjudge my vocab as emotion) it isn't really what you mean. I certainly am glad you were able to correct the mis-statement.
The convention has taken some twists and turns as things do. Part of the project idea was to see where the different forums took it. I believe I posted links to the threads forum-forum...Some excellent discussion..this particular forum made the choice not to preserve it for the future reader (I was disappointed that I couldn't get PG or Trhit to comment as I felt they could offer valid perspective on it but America is a wonderful place where a person can play or not). Subsequently Tr posted a thread in which he spoke passionately about kids not throwing enough..his opine may be gleaned from that possibly.
I do have to say it was the first and hopefully not the last time where discussion on a sensitive area was carried between some forums...many intelligent educated and experienced posters gave their take..I consider it successful in that...one poster on another site tried to use it as a platform for their own agenda so the thread got locked there but over all I'd rate the information as meaningful. Now as I see value in it..I don't own any site and how the owners and administrators use/don't use it is their decision..I would encourage them to at least make it a sticky so that the curious could easily access it but if they don't I am powerless to effect that change.
All said the effort was very interesting and something I hope some enterprising soul attempts again...what the heck, I still believe that the internet can be more than a bitchfest or slam-a-thon...I suspect that person will have better persuasive skills than I.
The convention has taken some twists and turns as things do. Part of the project idea was to see where the different forums took it. I believe I posted links to the threads forum-forum...Some excellent discussion..this particular forum made the choice not to preserve it for the future reader (I was disappointed that I couldn't get PG or Trhit to comment as I felt they could offer valid perspective on it but America is a wonderful place where a person can play or not). Subsequently Tr posted a thread in which he spoke passionately about kids not throwing enough..his opine may be gleaned from that possibly.
I do have to say it was the first and hopefully not the last time where discussion on a sensitive area was carried between some forums...many intelligent educated and experienced posters gave their take..I consider it successful in that...one poster on another site tried to use it as a platform for their own agenda so the thread got locked there but over all I'd rate the information as meaningful. Now as I see value in it..I don't own any site and how the owners and administrators use/don't use it is their decision..I would encourage them to at least make it a sticky so that the curious could easily access it but if they don't I am powerless to effect that change.
All said the effort was very interesting and something I hope some enterprising soul attempts again...what the heck, I still believe that the internet can be more than a bitchfest or slam-a-thon...I suspect that person will have better persuasive skills than I.
Not to be a snoot or step on anyone's toes here, but in my 40 yrs involved in baseball and evaluating pitching, I have noticed pitchers who one time come out and throw one day with velocity, (eg., say 90-91) and then I go back and see the same pitcher lets say a month later and he was down to 87-88. A drop of 3 mph isn't a huge deal but for some it is. Why would a pitcher drop in velocity. If you watch the pitchers mechanics that can tell you something with the mechanics could be off kilter for one thing, another thing could be the pitcher plays other positions which make the pitcher throw more often, let's say he also plays SS or CF or even C, throwing and throwing without proper mechanics and perhaps not a good aftercare/conditioning program such as running which will help promote circulation and help lactic flow out of a pitchers arm and allow it to circulate through the body, could cause the muscles to be sore. Sore muscles do not help arm speed or range of motion and many times a pitcher will naturally lose some arm strength without resting for a period, not a week or two weeks or months, but some sports docs will tell pitchers to take some rest. Building the arm by throwing naturally, especially playing long toss, can help build back velocity but also good fundamental mechanics will play a huge part to help with adding/building velocity, it has to do a lot with arm speed and using the lower half of the body and upper half of the body in unison to help generate velocity, if you close up your front side and the hips don't open properly or the top half of the body flies open before the hips turn, the lil things of timing can throw off a pitchers velocity so to speak because everything during the delivery isn't working properly. Violent head turns, iron mike stiff arm javelin style arm angle delivery during the arm swing eventually will wear a pitchers arm down, but some freaks of nature we call them are able to sustain velocity, but if their timing is off whereas the lower half and upper half don't work together, that same pitcher can drop 3-4 mph from one start to the next and sometimes for several in between or you may see the velocity drop quickly from the 1st inning to the second inning, not in all cases mind you, but I've seen it.quote:Originally posted by cheesethrower:
What would you relate inconsistent velocity to? Assuming a pitcher (HS Level) is well rested and not injured.
We have to understand too that pitching overhand is not natural for the arm to swing and when a pitcher throws many pitches, sports docs will tell you that an injury is occuring during the process of pitching and the pitcher must condition themselves in order to be able to bounce back 100% in a couple of days. Sure you can ice pack, use an arm sleeve to warm up the arm, I've even seen pitchers use the sleeve to pitch with during the game many times, and to date, every pitcher I ever scouted that wore a "sleeve" to protect the elbow, ended up with a career ending injury or they were never consistently effective as a pitcher, mainly at the professional level but I would say that would also translate to pitchers at the amateur level as well, having seen pitchers lose velocity from start to start or even in game.
I have always been an advocate of long toss because long toss helps build a pitchers arm strength, it also helps promote arm speed, to throw the ball a longer distance than before, thus causing the arm to speed up. You also must use your legs during the throwing process. Pitchers who do not use their lower half to full ability often end up being basically, arm throwers and burn out quickly and usually have inconsistent control/command, not only losing velocity or not being consistent with their velocity time and time again.
That's my 2 pennies worth, and it's an enjoyable subject.
One tool that was never used years ago that you see today on TV is the radar readings and if you watch pitchers at the amateur/pro levels that have varied velocities, you can see where they may not have consitent release points or they rush their top half before their hips turn around fully to the plate.
I saw where someone stated that the "slide step" can have an impact on losing velocity and that is a valid point if the hips are already open and are not allowed to turn towards the plate with the front side together to create momentum and may cause the pitcher to use more of the arm, causing it to strain, which can break down muscles in the arm quickly or could potentially cause further injury to the pitchers arm. The front side and hips must be able to have some type of slight turn together to give the pitcher some thrust or momentum to the plate and if it's cut off, you will see velocity drop. Just watch and slow down the videos of pitchers you see on the video lose 3-4 mph from windup to stretch to see if that's a valid point or not and watch what happens to the upper and lower half of that pitcher during each pitch and you may see what I am yappin about, LOL.
Great subject guys and take care!
X
MLBscout,
One minor bone to pick.
The lactic acid theory of fatigue and soreness has been disproved.
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/05...nutrition/16run.html
One minor bone to pick.
The lactic acid theory of fatigue and soreness has been disproved.
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/05...nutrition/16run.html
Nice article and thanks for clarifying, Freddy. I remember reading the article about the frogs when I did my senior paper for kinesiology class. I wish I had studied execise physiology afterwards, but my BA in PE was suffice at the time, LOL. I am a firm believer as Dr. Brooks said about running longer, etc. I was not aware the lactic acid theory was a misnomer and mitochondria was more vital until you linked the article. Good stuff, that also might translate as to why playing long toss for longer periods of time is better for pitchers/players to help build arm muscles, and endurance. One of the things I know has been a problem over the years is kids don't throw for longer periods of time like years and years ago which is part of my pitching mechanics theory.quote:Originally posted by freddy77:
MLBscout,
One minor bone to pick.
The lactic acid theory of fatigue and soreness has been disproved.
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/05...nutrition/16run.html
It's a very neat subject that can be very confusing for those who can not decypher or know the definitions of long scientific words, but if it all could be broken down in laymans terms, more coaches would be able to get their points across easier, LOL.
Thanks for sharing! It's very valuable info!
X
X
You may want to check out these links also:
http://ericcressey.com/a-new-m...etween-starts-part-1
http://asmiforum.proboards.com...n=display&thread=871
You may want to check out these links also:
http://ericcressey.com/a-new-m...etween-starts-part-1
http://asmiforum.proboards.com...n=display&thread=871
Good stuff cheesethrower! Thanks for sharing.quote:Originally posted by cheesethrower:
X
You may want to check out these links also:
http://ericcressey.com/a-new-m...etween-starts-part-1
http://asmiforum.proboards.com...n=display&thread=871
I still believe in running, long distances, to help build endurance, I also believe during the long distance running that there should be sprints to help get the heart rate up further and it also helps build muscle mass some. Stretching is vital as well, before and after training or throwing. I like the ice as well on the areas that typically are sore on the pitcher after pitching.
Years ago, a U of Hi pitching coach, Coop DeRenne did a study on building velocity with weighted balls, there were other pitching coaches who wrote articles and even books on their methods, etc.
The old school of thought where I am from and I would probably teach the same way today is, looking at the successful pitchers of yesteryear, like the Gibson's, Maddux', Carlton's, Hershiser's, etc., how was their training regimen, how did they condition themselves and what would they think about today's methods of conditioning and teaching their pitchers as compared when they played. What would they change or what would they add or what would they delete from conditioning and teaching/instruction.
Thanks! Fascinating stuff.
Oh, one thing we did years ago when I was a PC at a JC, we took radar gun readings of 10 pitches after our pitchers were said to have been warm and ready. We recorded their pitches with a radar gun. This was done the first day they worked out. We keep record of it. We went into conditioning in the off-season and we threw the ball and did mini workouts with pitchers when they were allowed to. We then came back after conditioning and working with mechanics over the winter just before our first intra-squad game if we could get outdoors, threw each pitcher a number of pitches after they were fully warmed up and we clocked the pitchers again and recorded their fb. 11 out of 11 pitchers from day 1 in the fall, to day 1 when we could get outdoors, properly warm up, etc., all gained velocity. Granted these kids were 18-19, some even 20 yrs old and they should gradually add velocity each year until they "physically peak", so we figured that throwing long toss, doing long marathon type runs incorporated with straight away sprints, a cool down period and properly warming up and working with their mechanics without changing much, gained velocity. Could the training and conditioning have played a part in the increase, was it their natural physical maturity, what helped them gain velocity? I don't know if we will ever truly 100% know that answer, but I can tell you it was not steroids, and one lefty for me threw 77 in the fall and when he signed with the Giants the following summer was 88, an 11 mph bump. How did that happen? Well he went from 5'11 150 to 6'0 170 and instead of playing 60-90 ft catch as he was accustomed to in HS, we increased his distance of throwing and the period of time with a cool down period and taught him how to eat right because he had terrible nutrition habits, so we put him with our nutritionist and wallah! Does this happen often? I'm not sure, but each year for the years I coached, the majority of pitchers in our program gained velocity. I have seen this happen in pro ball to players who were 21-22 when they signed and by the time they were 24-26, they gained another 3-4 mph, the only difference I saw in those pitchers that were older was they were stronger and their mechanics were 100% smoother than how they threw at the school they were previously at before given a pro opportunity. It would cool to see a program written by a coach that kept their research and showed the results with actual names in it to see what really works at building velocity.
Later!
X
quote:Originally posted by Gingerbread Man:
Getting in a strong and consistant throwing routine during the week is largely the greatest factor in consistant velocity. Rather than look for peaks of velocity, I think it is more important to look at two factors- 1. average velocity is mainatained at a higher overall velocity and 2. logevity- that heightened velocity average sustainment lasts longer into games/pitch counts.
GM,
Don't fall off your chair, but I agree with most of what you have said!
Many contibuting factors to velocity fluctuation, I am not sure anyone can say that one thing actually contributes to it, every outing has a different set of circumstances. My own opinion is that the arm doesn't get tired, the body (especially the legs) does, which affects the mechanic, which means a drop in velo which can mean a drop in performance.
Good article BTW, lots of theories out there on what baseball players should and should not do and what works and doesn't work.
Not to get into non injurous vs. injurous mechanics, but YB is correct that one shouldn't have to worry about velocity fluctuation if the athlete conditions properly and not to worry about it until it's important to. The problem is that continuous training is probably very difficult for most youth and HS players to achieve.
What I do find on these message boards is that as much as there is a difference of opinion on pitching mechanics, training, etc, the bottom line is that all are concerned with one thing, help to eliminate pitching injuries, especially in youth pitchers. I am just amazed at, with all the info provided that we hear more and more about elbow and shoulder injuries. JD, your idea was a good one, there needs to be more public awareness of the do and don'ts but all I keep seeing is everyone arguing about the same stuff and a lot of puffy chesting as to who is right and who is wrong and just more confusion for the person asking the question. I think that your intentions were with good cause.
YB,
Please tell your good friend Kharma, TPM says hello!
quote:JD, your idea was a good one, there needs to be more public awareness of the do and don'ts but all I keep seeing is everyone arguing about the same stuff and a lot of puffy chesting as to who is right and who is wrong
I'd certainly be interested in your take on my latest on that thread.
Thank you for the good thoughts.
This is really thinking outside of the box but does the pitcher sleep on his throwing shoulder? After throwing on short rest I would have better velocity than throwing on full rest and it made no sense to me. I didn't realize this until this past summer that I was sleeping on my throwing arm some nights which almost always caused me to have a decrease in velocity the next day. Not your typical situation but it happened to me so I thought I would share.
