What velocity gain can I expect each year of high school? I know it depends but I do work out (don't have a long-toss program yet but can throw about 225' or so now).
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BB13:
There is no formula for this. Some kids come into HS throwing 80 and leave throwing 84. Others may come in at 70 and leave at 90. So much depends on your genetics and your growth timing.(as well as your age)
I can give you typical velocities.
Freshmen low 65 Freshmen high 80 Typical 72
Sr. low 78 Sr. High 95+ Typical 84
A lot also depends on where you live. In New England you don't have the weather that allows for year round baseball so I would suspect that the numbers might be lower. What is going to make a difference for you are:
1. Throw every day possible.
2. Get good pitching instruction.
3. Work out in the gym with a good program.
4. Throw long toss.
Good luck!
There is no formula for this. Some kids come into HS throwing 80 and leave throwing 84. Others may come in at 70 and leave at 90. So much depends on your genetics and your growth timing.(as well as your age)
I can give you typical velocities.
Freshmen low 65 Freshmen high 80 Typical 72
Sr. low 78 Sr. High 95+ Typical 84
A lot also depends on where you live. In New England you don't have the weather that allows for year round baseball so I would suspect that the numbers might be lower. What is going to make a difference for you are:
1. Throw every day possible.
2. Get good pitching instruction.
3. Work out in the gym with a good program.
4. Throw long toss.
Good luck!
Thank you, BOF. What about a weighted ball program. Does that help?
They do, but IMO you should start out with a good strength and conditioning program, get good instruction, get serious about long toss and then if you are doing all of the above you can do a weighted ball program. These should be done off season in the fall or winter with knowledgeable coaching, as a build up to your season.
Go through and search in the pitching forum you will find all kinds of stuff. As rule I would post these kinds of questions there.
Go through and search in the pitching forum you will find all kinds of stuff. As rule I would post these kinds of questions there.
Thank you.
It all depends on how much you want it, how hard you work at it and listen to those that know what they are talking about and ignoring the ones that don't!
It seems that every person will have their own ceiling in terms of velocity potential. You need to look at this in two ways.
1. Always keep pushing to that ceiling, because you don't know what it is. Get as strong as you can, flexible as you can, improve your mechanics as much as possible, condition your arm properly, all the things that it takes to maximize what you have.
2. There is more to pitching than velocity. Get as good as you can at all of the non-velocity things. In this way, if/when you hit that velocity ceiling, you also are at your overall pitching ceiling. Master your pitches, constantly work on your command, improve yourself mentally, seek help from those more knowledgeable.
The nice thing is that it is unlikely that a person will do all the work for one of those things and not the other, as long as he knows that both must be done. Work ethic is work ethic.
1. Always keep pushing to that ceiling, because you don't know what it is. Get as strong as you can, flexible as you can, improve your mechanics as much as possible, condition your arm properly, all the things that it takes to maximize what you have.
2. There is more to pitching than velocity. Get as good as you can at all of the non-velocity things. In this way, if/when you hit that velocity ceiling, you also are at your overall pitching ceiling. Master your pitches, constantly work on your command, improve yourself mentally, seek help from those more knowledgeable.
The nice thing is that it is unlikely that a person will do all the work for one of those things and not the other, as long as he knows that both must be done. Work ethic is work ethic.
While there is no definite answer as it varies from player to player, it all depends on the amount of work you put into your baseball training program. If you are constantly at the gym, playing long toss, and taking bullpen sessions you will see your velocity continue to improve. The more you put into your training program, the more you will get out of it. Just make sure you stay safe and don't overwork yourself. Cheers!
quote:Freshmen low 65 Freshmen high 80 Typical 72
Sr. low 78 Sr. High 95+ Typical 84
This is pretty true across the board in all states. Reading all of the PG player profiles and you see a pretty general trend with two different types-
1. Those elite freshman/ Sophmores who come into HS throwing mid to upper 80's and graduate throwing around 85-95+. This groups increase is less than a 10 mph from freshamn to senior year- usually about a 6-8 mph gain.
2. Freshman coming in throwing 70-74, steadily progress and graduate throwing mid to upper 80's, sometimes low 90's with a few in the mid to upper 90's. This group usually increases at least 10 mph through HS and generally most usually around 12-14 mph for an overall gain.
I would say for most who work hard, they will fall in that second category gaining about 10-15 mph on average from where they were at entering HS.
quote:Originally posted by BOF:
BB13:
I can give you typical velocities.
Freshmen low 65 Freshmen high 80 Typical 72
Sr. low 78 Sr. High 95+ Typical 84
You went on to say it depends on where you live. But even in Southern Cal, 95+ is extremely rare. Typical senior fastball nationwide is about 78. Even the top schools 85+ is elite. Bum, Jr. as a freshman was about 68-70 and was hitting 89 as a senior, but there was only one other kid in town that threw harder than him.
So many variables. Some kids come in throwing very hard for their age and leave throwing average for their age. Some kids come in way more physically mature for their age than others. Some kids work very hard and are consistent with that work and some do not work hard. All I can go on is what I have seen in the players I have coached because I know how hard they have worked and what they have done. I have seen fresh sophs that we played against that you could see a lot of promise in. But then I dont know how hard they actually worked in the off season either.
Ex #1- Freshman 5-11 170 80-82
Extremely hard worker. Got on a long toss program, core program, baseball specific weight program, left throwing 89-92. Never pitched in college. Catches, plays 1B, Dh, Left HS 6-0 210. Will be a nice draft pick in just a few days. Tremendous arm.
Ex #2- Freshman 5-11 180 81-83 Came in the year after above player did. Would not work in the off season unless he was pushed. Was not consistent on a long toss program. Was in our weight training program but did not work hard. Left throwing 85-87 signed with a D2 program but didn't stick past the fall of Fresh year.
Ex #3- Freshman 6-2 165 85-88 Tremendous athlete with a loose electric arm. Bumped 90 several times as a fresh. Great kid but simply didnt like to work out. Worked out and did what he asked him to do but never would push himself. He was so talented he simply never felt the need to do more. Left 89-92 6-3 185. Drafted and was off the charts in his performance in milb. Quit the game because he said it just wasnt any fun.
Ex #4- Freshman LH 6-3 170 75-78. Tremendous athlete. Work ethic unmatched. You had to run him off the field. He pushed us to do more. Left 89-92. Drafted and pitching in the Major's. He was 6-4 195 as a sr. Throws mid 90's and bumped 98 last week in a ML game.
Ex #5- Freshman 5-7 140 70-72. Wanted it bad. No talent coming in. Worked his butt off. Long tossed, worked so hard in the weight room. As a Sr was 83-85. Played JUCO ball and his soph year was 87-89 and signed as a free agent with Chicago. Dropped down and was very successful in the minor leagues.
Ex #20 to #75 - Came in and didn't do anymore than they had to do. Never long tossed unless the team was long tossing. Found other things to do in the summer and fall. Came to work outs because they felt they should not because they couldnt wait to get there. Wanted the accolades that come from being a stud but didnt want to do what it took to be that guy. They took their natural progression and rode that. If it was good enough to earn some innings great. If it was not found a reason to explain why it was not.
I could give many more examples. But the bottom line is if a player has a passion to build a strong arm and develop his velocity to its max during the hs years he can do just that. His max will be determined by some factors outside his control. But the things he can control he can or he can decide its not worth the price.
No one can tell you what you can do. Only the person that has done all he can do to be all he can be can tell you that. And that person is looking you in the mirror. How bad do you want it? How hard are you willing to work for it? Only you know that. Will it make you a ML pitcher? Will it get you a College offer? I cant tell you that no one can. But I can tell you one thing. If you dont work and your not willing to work you will never be what you could have been. And when its all said and done as long as you know you were all you could be thats something you can hang your hat on. At least in my book.
Ex #1- Freshman 5-11 170 80-82
Extremely hard worker. Got on a long toss program, core program, baseball specific weight program, left throwing 89-92. Never pitched in college. Catches, plays 1B, Dh, Left HS 6-0 210. Will be a nice draft pick in just a few days. Tremendous arm.
Ex #2- Freshman 5-11 180 81-83 Came in the year after above player did. Would not work in the off season unless he was pushed. Was not consistent on a long toss program. Was in our weight training program but did not work hard. Left throwing 85-87 signed with a D2 program but didn't stick past the fall of Fresh year.
Ex #3- Freshman 6-2 165 85-88 Tremendous athlete with a loose electric arm. Bumped 90 several times as a fresh. Great kid but simply didnt like to work out. Worked out and did what he asked him to do but never would push himself. He was so talented he simply never felt the need to do more. Left 89-92 6-3 185. Drafted and was off the charts in his performance in milb. Quit the game because he said it just wasnt any fun.
Ex #4- Freshman LH 6-3 170 75-78. Tremendous athlete. Work ethic unmatched. You had to run him off the field. He pushed us to do more. Left 89-92. Drafted and pitching in the Major's. He was 6-4 195 as a sr. Throws mid 90's and bumped 98 last week in a ML game.
Ex #5- Freshman 5-7 140 70-72. Wanted it bad. No talent coming in. Worked his butt off. Long tossed, worked so hard in the weight room. As a Sr was 83-85. Played JUCO ball and his soph year was 87-89 and signed as a free agent with Chicago. Dropped down and was very successful in the minor leagues.
Ex #20 to #75 - Came in and didn't do anymore than they had to do. Never long tossed unless the team was long tossing. Found other things to do in the summer and fall. Came to work outs because they felt they should not because they couldnt wait to get there. Wanted the accolades that come from being a stud but didnt want to do what it took to be that guy. They took their natural progression and rode that. If it was good enough to earn some innings great. If it was not found a reason to explain why it was not.
I could give many more examples. But the bottom line is if a player has a passion to build a strong arm and develop his velocity to its max during the hs years he can do just that. His max will be determined by some factors outside his control. But the things he can control he can or he can decide its not worth the price.
No one can tell you what you can do. Only the person that has done all he can do to be all he can be can tell you that. And that person is looking you in the mirror. How bad do you want it? How hard are you willing to work for it? Only you know that. Will it make you a ML pitcher? Will it get you a College offer? I cant tell you that no one can. But I can tell you one thing. If you dont work and your not willing to work you will never be what you could have been. And when its all said and done as long as you know you were all you could be thats something you can hang your hat on. At least in my book.
I looked on the Jaeger website but didn't find the answer. Also checked here.
For those that LT can you tell me how your program worked? school ball ended 2 weeks ago and my son has just started summer ball. Oh, he is a Freshman.
Say he starts one game a week. When does he LT? Any bullpen or mound work? just trying to see what others have done. thanks.
For those that LT can you tell me how your program worked? school ball ended 2 weeks ago and my son has just started summer ball. Oh, he is a Freshman.
Say he starts one game a week. When does he LT? Any bullpen or mound work? just trying to see what others have done. thanks.
I would purchase the "thrive on throwing CD" and some J bands.
You can go to youtube and get a lot of it also.
The amount of work he does will be dependent on his condition, and how much time he has. I would start every other day and build up to every day. Really work hard and long on off days, and days he does bullpens go lighter. On pitching days it should be his normal warm up routine. After pitching it is really dependent on how he feels. Mine would throw lightly days after pitching and then get back at it two days after. A lot of this is dependent on how your son feels so he just needs to do what is best for himself.
You can go to youtube and get a lot of it also.
The amount of work he does will be dependent on his condition, and how much time he has. I would start every other day and build up to every day. Really work hard and long on off days, and days he does bullpens go lighter. On pitching days it should be his normal warm up routine. After pitching it is really dependent on how he feels. Mine would throw lightly days after pitching and then get back at it two days after. A lot of this is dependent on how your son feels so he just needs to do what is best for himself.
quote:You went on to say it depends on where you live. But even in Southern Cal, 95+ is extremely rare. Typical senior fastball nationwide is about 78. Even the top schools 85+ is elite. Bum, Jr. as a freshman was about 68-70 and was hitting 89 as a senior, but there was only one other kid in town that threw harder than him.
I am a firm believer that what state you live in (climate) doesn't have much effect on what velocity you throw with. I agree with Bum that the typical varsity fastball is around 78 mph pretty much everywhere. I believe that most HS pitchers just don't put in the time necessary and make the changes or do the right things to build velocity.
The hardest throwing senior in our conference (4A) was around 86mph this season. He has been clocked in the low 90's last year, but we didn't see it this year (his Dad actually had a stalker at the games). Most of the decent senior pitchers we saw were in the 78-82 mph range. Few were over that velocity and few were under that velocity. The team who won the 4A state title had a pitcher who can throw in the low 90's. Them guys are pretty rare though no matter where you live. Breaking through the mid 80's into the upper 80's and even low 90's is pretty hard no matter where one lives. Generally we see more flamethrowers coming out of Texas and California because more people live there and doesn't really have to do much with a warmer climate.
Gingerbread, you are exactly right. Warm weather has nothing to do with it. The stats show that pitchers from Washington state (where my son attended h.s.) are drafted per capita at the same rate as kids from California. I don't think it is a warm weather-cold weather issue. In fact, the elite players in the north used the offseason to their advantage, working out, doing plyometrics, weight lifting, indoor bullpens to work on mechanics, etc. Some places like Florida have more elite players because they have a lot of hispanic kids who gravitate to baseball.
Gingerbread Man,
I happen to think you’re pretty much right on target too, but I can tell you haven’t had to deal a whole lot with SoCal, Tx, or Fl people.
I’m here in central NorCal where we have roughly 150-200 schools playing baseball in 7 different divisions. Our school is in the large school division, and this season played 31 games agains18 different teams, 4 of which were DII schools, 1 a DIII school, 1 a DIV school, and 1 from another state that I think was a big school.
In all those games, and some were against eventual league or section winners, there’s no way we saw more than 5 kids who could touch 90. 1 is a legit 90 cruiser, but the other heat bringers were much like the kid on our team who did it. As a Jr he occasionally touched 90 or 91, but this season with anywhere from 2 to 12 guns on him, every time he pitched, he didn’t throw any harder, and in fact was much more erratic and didn’t pitch nearly as well as he did last year.
Most of the other top arms had lots of eyeballs on them, but the division they played in had a lot to do with how dominating they were.
10 of 47 hits were xbh hits. 64 K’s out of 250 batters. Meanwhile, another kid, virtually the same size, 6’5”/190 and throwing virtually the same velocity, but on a DVI championship team faced 84 batters, only 2 of the 18 hits he gave up were XBHs, and he struck out 48 of the 84 batters he faced. Meanwhile, the kid who was by far the hardest thrower in the area, face 210 batters, gave up 39 hits, 5 doubles, and struck out 70 batters.
Its interesting to look at those numbers in terms of relations.
Batters per K.
Our pitcher – 1 per 3.9 batters
The DVI pitcher – 1 per 1.75 batters
The stud – 1 per 3 batters.
So what happens is, a very skewed sense of what’s going on can take place. In fact, what usually happens is, the best hitters don’t fare as well against “pitchers”. FI, we have a kid on our team who hits 84-85 on a good pitch, but he’s a pitcher. He’s struck out the same number of batters as the other kid on our team, but he’s done it against 8 fewer batters, and against far superior competition.
In short, you’re 100% correct. The reason more flame throwers come from places like Ca, Tx, or Fl, is simply because they have more players. And also, how “dominant” any particular pitcher looks, has much more to do with who he’s throwing against than how hard he throws.
I happen to think you’re pretty much right on target too, but I can tell you haven’t had to deal a whole lot with SoCal, Tx, or Fl people.
I’m here in central NorCal where we have roughly 150-200 schools playing baseball in 7 different divisions. Our school is in the large school division, and this season played 31 games agains18 different teams, 4 of which were DII schools, 1 a DIII school, 1 a DIV school, and 1 from another state that I think was a big school.
In all those games, and some were against eventual league or section winners, there’s no way we saw more than 5 kids who could touch 90. 1 is a legit 90 cruiser, but the other heat bringers were much like the kid on our team who did it. As a Jr he occasionally touched 90 or 91, but this season with anywhere from 2 to 12 guns on him, every time he pitched, he didn’t throw any harder, and in fact was much more erratic and didn’t pitch nearly as well as he did last year.
Most of the other top arms had lots of eyeballs on them, but the division they played in had a lot to do with how dominating they were.
10 of 47 hits were xbh hits. 64 K’s out of 250 batters. Meanwhile, another kid, virtually the same size, 6’5”/190 and throwing virtually the same velocity, but on a DVI championship team faced 84 batters, only 2 of the 18 hits he gave up were XBHs, and he struck out 48 of the 84 batters he faced. Meanwhile, the kid who was by far the hardest thrower in the area, face 210 batters, gave up 39 hits, 5 doubles, and struck out 70 batters.
Its interesting to look at those numbers in terms of relations.
Batters per K.
Our pitcher – 1 per 3.9 batters
The DVI pitcher – 1 per 1.75 batters
The stud – 1 per 3 batters.
So what happens is, a very skewed sense of what’s going on can take place. In fact, what usually happens is, the best hitters don’t fare as well against “pitchers”. FI, we have a kid on our team who hits 84-85 on a good pitch, but he’s a pitcher. He’s struck out the same number of batters as the other kid on our team, but he’s done it against 8 fewer batters, and against far superior competition.
In short, you’re 100% correct. The reason more flame throwers come from places like Ca, Tx, or Fl, is simply because they have more players. And also, how “dominant” any particular pitcher looks, has much more to do with who he’s throwing against than how hard he throws.
Stats.
Those numbers, while interesting to you and me, don't mean squat to a college coach. Unfortunately, like it or not, all D1 coaches care about is velocity. It seems like the magic number for them is 88 for a RH pitcher. Once you get over this, then they will look at the other “stuff”. Don’t get me wrong there is nothing wrong with being a fine HS pitcher, sitting at 84, being successful, being the number 1, and having a great HS career. The facts are this - those kids are NOT going to pitch in college. The logic is pretty simple, “I can teach a kid to pitch, but I cannot teach him to throw 90”.
So for all of you out there who think K’s, K’s/BB, BA/pitch, PC/IP, ERA, WHIP, bla bla bla ad nauseum, they don’t men a thing until you hit 88!
The earlier kids (and their dads who are helping them) get this in their heads the better off they are. Work on your fastball, all of the time, every day, relentlessly. Never ever give up on it - EVER!. I laugh when I read about pitching in the preHS forum and how great little Johnny’s curveball is at 14, 15, 16, whatever…. It means nothing without a MINIMUM 88MPH fastball.
PS: you will need the other stuff eventually, but get to 88 as your first priority.
Those numbers, while interesting to you and me, don't mean squat to a college coach. Unfortunately, like it or not, all D1 coaches care about is velocity. It seems like the magic number for them is 88 for a RH pitcher. Once you get over this, then they will look at the other “stuff”. Don’t get me wrong there is nothing wrong with being a fine HS pitcher, sitting at 84, being successful, being the number 1, and having a great HS career. The facts are this - those kids are NOT going to pitch in college. The logic is pretty simple, “I can teach a kid to pitch, but I cannot teach him to throw 90”.
So for all of you out there who think K’s, K’s/BB, BA/pitch, PC/IP, ERA, WHIP, bla bla bla ad nauseum, they don’t men a thing until you hit 88!
The earlier kids (and their dads who are helping them) get this in their heads the better off they are. Work on your fastball, all of the time, every day, relentlessly. Never ever give up on it - EVER!. I laugh when I read about pitching in the preHS forum and how great little Johnny’s curveball is at 14, 15, 16, whatever…. It means nothing without a MINIMUM 88MPH fastball.
PS: you will need the other stuff eventually, but get to 88 as your first priority.
BOF, I would say 86 minimum for a RHP and 84 minimum for a LHP (D1) but any kid over 80 can pitch small college baseball at some level.
But I don't want to detract from your point, because it is a good one. Any player or parent that thinks junk balls or "control" will get them an offer just forget about it.
But I don't want to detract from your point, because it is a good one. Any player or parent that thinks junk balls or "control" will get them an offer just forget about it.
Agreed BUM. I also agree with the warm vs cold climate kids, it just means that the cold climate kids have to be more tenacious in their training. (like your son) He REALLY had to want it to be out there in the snow throwing baseballs. It is also a Ca thing as far as Velo, most Ca schools will not look at 86ers.
Velocity is King, especially as it pertains to RHP's...it's difficult to dispute that. However, there are a few 83-87 (touch upper 80's) Righties pitching at the D-1 level and succeeding. The school my son will be attending next Fall has one of them. He's the number three pitcher on the staff, and doesn't light up the radar guns, but I believe his career record on the bump is now 16-3 (for a D-1 team w/39 wins this season). Clemson (41 wins) has a pitcher from So Cal that received substantial time on the hill this season for the Tigers. He happens to be another mid 80's RHP, but gets the job done. What do both of these kids have in common? Great change ups, and excellent command of three pitches. Well they be drafted with mid-80's fast balls? Probably not. Can they get the job done at the highest level in college ball? You bet; they're proving it.
Make it a priority to work on your Arm Strength, but do not neglect everything else. My son had a HS teammate this season that easily sat 89-91 in the winter/fall. His problem was that he couldn't throw strikes, so unfortunately he didn't pitch a single inning during the regular spring season. His electric arm has been wasted thus far, and I sincerely hope that he finds a good PC that can get him on track at the JC he'll attend next fall.
Make it a priority to work on your Arm Strength, but do not neglect everything else. My son had a HS teammate this season that easily sat 89-91 in the winter/fall. His problem was that he couldn't throw strikes, so unfortunately he didn't pitch a single inning during the regular spring season. His electric arm has been wasted thus far, and I sincerely hope that he finds a good PC that can get him on track at the JC he'll attend next fall.