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Very important post

TPMTPMHSBaseballweb Member since 2003
Well, it's hard to believe that my son's second season has arrived. I have been anxiously awaiting tomorrow's game, for him, for his team.

I know that many have asked when DK will take to the hill this weekend, he was slated as first out of the pen, but it will not happen this weekend.

On tuesday during his bull pen he felt a tightness in his shoulder that turned to pain. Not common for my son to ever feel pain so he paniced. He threw an inning, 11 pitches to get out of the inning, but was unable to get past 85, when he has been up to 92-93. He said no more that night. I am not really sure why he took the mound in the first place. They immediately sent him to the doctor. He was put on anti inflammatories, therapy, ice and today had to do a light toss to see how he felt. Although not painful, he just knew that things were not right and told them he could not pitch this weekend. He is shut down until further notice. The best part of this all is that he shut himself down, he realizes he could do more harm than good throwing this weekend. I suppose he could have kept his mouth shut, tried to pitch to see what would happen.

Why am I posting this? Parents it's an example of how important it is for our pitchers to be intune with their arms. If something doesn't feel right, you don't push. You don't hide your pain, you don't dismiss it, you don't keep throwing, don't ask anyone what tehy think it MIGHT be unless they are a medical doctor. Many of you know that it greatly disturbs me when people come asking for medical advice here and are actually given advice (other than see a doctor) as to what it might be and WHY they are having pain. Let me ask you this, how can you tell what's going on from a mesage board post if the doctor examining my son is not sure what is going on yet. The main reason for my post, parents, as soon as your son says something HURTS, is in PAIN, shut it down, seek medical advice. If you continue to let him throw, great damage can occur. Better to be safe than sorry.
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TRhitTRhit10,000+ posts
TPM

Truly sorry to hear of the situation and I wish him the best--he is certainly in good hands at Clemson

Great post-- people take heed of what this woman tells you here-- there is nobody on this or any site that can give answers to arm problems or any baseball "pain" problems other than to see a good sports doc
jemazjemaz1,000+ posts
Arms are funny and unpredictable. I hope for the best for your son, TPM.

It makes me wonder though -- good mechanics, bad mechanics, overuse, underuse. I can't get it out of my head that evey arm has a finite number of pitches in it -- different perhaps for every arm, but finite nonetheless.

It's part of what makes pitching such a dicey proposition and why I wonder why any kid actually would choose pitching over a position (and that is only partly TIC).
06catcherdad06catcherdad1,000+ posts
I'd like to also concur with TPM's comments. You have to get treatment from the very best professionals you can get access to.

My son, a high school senior, has never had any arm problems; that is until January 14th. That night, at a tournament in Southern CA he was throwing down to second between innings and felt a "pop" in his elbow followed by a burning pain sensation. His elbow immediately hurt enough that he couldn't throw after that.

When we got home, I made an appointment with our family practice doctor, and the diagnosis was tendinitis of the medial epicondyl. We followed that up with physical therapy 3 days per week, and after 3 weeks it hadn't improved. Son still couldn't throw a ball or swing a bat at all, so we went back to our family practioner, and he still thought it was tendinitis; but he did refer us out to their medical group's orthopedist at my insistence. We ended up seeing an orthopedic surgeon, but not the one we were originally referred to.

By chance, I ran into a scout friend while attending the Long Beach State vs. Cal game and as soon as he heard my son was having elbow problems, he said we needed to see one specific orthopedist that happens to be the team orthopedic surgeon for a national league club. This was on a Friday, and the doctor saw my son on Tuesday. The scout was kind enough to contact the doctor on our behalf and make the appointment for us. Anyway, the doctor's preliminary diagnosis is that my son has probably torn the UCL ligament and will likely need Tommy John surgery. He told us that he needs to have an MRI and once we have those results he'll make a final diagnosis and recommend whether TJ surgery is necessary, or if some other course of treatment will take care of the problem. What this orthopedist couldn't understand (and the reason I've written such a long post) was how our family practitioner couldn't figure out that his problem was likely more serious than just tendinitis. The write up that the physical therapist sent down with us indicated a possible torn UCL in her opinion, but the primary care physician didn't think this was the case at all.

We had to return to our primary care group for a referral so that insurance would pay for the MRI, and the doc still didn't want to agree that it might be more serious than tendinitis. I had to get a little insistant with him that this orthopedist knows more about baseball injuries than he does, and if he wasn't going to write the referral then I was going to go over his head. Thankfully, this doc isn't our regular doctor, but another member of his group that we'd never seen before. In the end, we got the referral and an MRI will be done some time next week. After that, we'll be headed back down to see the orthopedist for final diagnosis and plan of treatment. One thing that was obvious was the difference in the way our family practice doc manipulated my son's arm, and the way the baseball orthopedist did it. The orthopedist bent, twisted and palpitated my son's arm in ways the other doc never came close to, and what didn't hurt with the first doc was obviously very painful to my son when sitting with the baseball doc.

Sorry for the long post, but my point in support of TPM is that sometimes you have to find the very best professionals you can in order to receive a proper diagnosis for a baseball related injury. Being seen by someone not familiar with the stresses that baseball can put on an arm can sometimes lead to not finding the actual problem or prescribing a improper course of treatment.
Last edited by 06catcherdad
catchermom03catchermom03500+ posts
Barb,
Hoping this is a benign problem that will only require the needed rest and ice treatment...
I would like to take this opportunity to make one point....TPM has offered great advice but there are times when we, as parents, need to take control of a situation as 06catcherdad has pointed out...All our sons are committed to the game...they do not wish to be sidelined by an injury therefore, complaining is not in their makeup...they have a propesity to try to work through an injury and not verbalize if they are hurt...if they say they are hurting....listen...take them to your primary care but here is the glich....you need to be your childs advocate in obtaining the best possible care which may be a referral to an Orthopod....fight, kick, scream and demand that a referral be issued....some primary cares think they know more than they actually do...they are broad spectrum they do not specialize in the treatment of sports related injuries...we all know our own children so if your child does not respond to the treatment initially offered get that referral
Last edited by catchermom03
Moc1Moc1500+ posts
TPM and 06catcherdad-very sorry to hear about your sons' situations. Hope the situations
are minor but if surgery is needed let's hope for a full recovery. Got to be tough for
you both knowing how much you were looking forward to this season. Hang in there!

Catchermom03 you make a very good point. Our kids makeup is NOT to complain-it's not macho-but to try to fight through the pain as TPM's son did for 11 pitches. Hoping the arm would loosen up and feel right. They've worked all fall and all Jan and Feb and can
now see the light at the end of the tunnel and finally the season is here-don't want to let the coach down or the team or the family.

I believe we, as coaches and parents, have caused this attitude. What's the first thing
we hear from the dugout or the stands after a kid has been hit by pitched ball? DON'T RUB
IT!!! In football after getting creamed on a tackle? COME ON-SUCK IT UP!!! or WORK THROUGH THE PAIN!! BE A MAN!!!

Until we change this whole macho outlook on sports there are going to be young guys who
try to fight through the pain so they won't come off as "less than a man".

Hope this doesn't hijack this thread because I think it's very important to make the
coaches aware at the first sign of something that doesn't feel right. And remember that
ONLY the player knows what feels "normal" for him.

Good luck to both young guys for a speedy recovery!
oldbat-neveroldbat-never1,000+ posts
Great Post TPM.

What I liked was that your son was proactive, knew his body and wasn't afraid to take himself out.

My son is still in the HS ranks and for years I have seen players push themselves on the youth sports level through HS level as they try to "work through the pain" either because they don't realize that what they are feeling could end up being something major and/or career ending or they because they are too afraid to speak up to either their coach or parent-very sad.

At a very young age parents of pitchers need to educate/not scare their players about listening to their bodies and watching for clues i.e. changes in velocity/mechanics (sounds like TPM did an excellent job on that). As players age then it should be the players responsibility to continue educating themselves on how to take care of their bodies/arms as well as empowering themselves to take control, if need be, when pain is involved.

And like all the posters have mentioned, when in pain see a specialist, don't rely on a friend's diagnosis or a GP, if it has to do with your elbow/shoulder go see an ortho. that specializes in athletic issues preferrable one that has an interest/experience with baseball players.

Two years ago, it was this site that suggested that to me for my son, luckily I even found our orthopedist's name through this site and my son had minor surgery on his elbow to remove some cartlidge that was trapped in the elbow causing the pain and the end result is he is pain free and back to pitching, well almost back he broke his finger 3 days ago during fungo............and we went straight to an ortho. since it was on his throwing hand....

TPM I hope your son's situation is minor and he is back to his normal/successful self soon.... keep us posted.

06catcherdad: I hope your MRI comes back negative on a tear and all is well for your son as well......
Last edited by oldbat-never
G gotwood4sale10,000+ posts
TPM and 06:

Thanks so much for sharing...imagine how much you have already helped others...what a great site this is.

With that said, both of your families will be in our prayers. We know how difficult it is to be in your position. Injuries happen to most good athletes, hopefully they are not sidelined for very long. Thank you for the heads up. It is critical to follow your own judgement in seeking good medical advice--and two or three opinions, if necessary. You know your sons best.

Certainly it is unfortunate when anyone gets hurt, but it happens. What is tremendously important is that the injury is recognized and taken care of professionally.

We're praying for a quick and complete recovery for both of your sons, and in fact, everyone who may be currently injured. It's sure not a fun way to go any portion of a season, let alone the entire season.

Michael and Annette
Last edited by gotwood4sale
CC Coach Chris100+ posts
Very sorry to hear about your son.

For what's it's worth, and I'm sure I'll be ridiculed for saying this, but the below photo may suggest what the root cause of the problem is...

- DK Photo

It's hard to say for sure, but in this photo it looks like he is starting to turn his shoulders before his arm is up and in the high cocked position. This is a pattern I have seen in many pitchers (e.g. Chris Carpenter and Robb Nen) who ultimately needed labrum surgery. I believe the problem is that it causes the humerus to externally rotate especially hard, which puts extra stress on the labrum (the structure that forms the socket of the shoulder joint).

I wouldn't be satisfied if they just tried to rest it. Instead, you might want to consider having him go to an MD and have them take an MRI of this part of his shoulder.
Dad04Dad045,000+ posts
quote:
It's hard to say for sure, but in this photo it looks like he is starting to turn his shoulders before his arm is up and in the high cocked position.


Chris, are you saying he is "dragging" his arm? That definately can cause shoulder problems and is easily fixed with one simple drill.
Last edited by Dad04
TPMTPMHSBaseballweb Member since 2003
Dr Chris,
In case you didn't notice, I did not come here seeking help as to the "cause" of his problem or for suggestions. I came here to inform parents how important it is for sons to know when things don't feel right to put the ball down, seek medical advice asap and not listen to those giving advice on the internet from a PICTURE taken a year ago.
I did state that he went immediately to the doctor (ortho) and the course of action for the next week.
I think you are the only one who didn't GET IT.
T TW344100+ posts
TPM:

I am so very, very sorry to hear about your son. Your courage in sharing this with others is inspiring. Look at what an informative thread you started with great comments from o6catcherdad, Moc1 and all the rest.

My family and I are with you. Hopefully, it is an injury that will heal without surgery but, even if surgery is needed, if your son is anything like his mother [and from all i know he is] he will work and rehab and be good as new. Good Luck and Good Fortune.
CC Coach Chris100+ posts
quote:
Chris, are you saying he is "dragging" his arm? That definately can cause shoulder problems and is easily fixed with one simple drill.


Kind of, but not exactly.

In the photo below, you can see that he is doing what some people would consider to be scap(ular) loading (and what other people would consider to be dragging the upper arm behind the shoulder).



I am a little concerned with how far his pitching elbow is behind his back (it looks like his humerus may be adducted 45 degrees, which is a lot) because this would strain the front of his his rotator cuff (e.g. the Subscapularis). However, his elbow is below his shoulder at this point, which I believe is good (of course, his elbow could have been above his shoulder just a moment before -- which I believe is bad).

My bigger concern is that at this moment it looks like his shoulders have started to turn toward the plate (look how he is pulling back with his glove and his glove-side elbow) but his pitching forearm is not yet vertical. Instead, it is about 45 degrees to the 3B side of vertical. As the rate at which his shoulders turns increases, his pitching arm will rapidly externally rotate 45+90=135 degrees. Typically, the pitching arms of pitchers only rapidly externally rotate (or "bounce" or "lay back") 90 degrees. This is stressful, but not outside of the limits of what the body can handle. However, I believe I have noticed a pattern in which pitchers whose pitching arms rapidly externally rotate 135 or more degrees (e.g. Chris Carpenter of my Cardinals) are more susceptible to Labrum and Biceps problems.

I believe that this is a mechanical problem (really a timing problem) that can be solved by tweaking exactly when the pitcher starts to rotate their shoulders.
MN-MomMN-MomHSBaseballWeb Owner
Coach Chris,

It is very inappropriate for you to continue to hijack this thread with your attempt at analysis and a photo of one of our member's sons, when the parent of this college pitcher posted above that she objected to your previous post!

I am very concerned about the attempts you make to give advice about injuries and mechanics in several different forums of this website. Your background and many of the analyses you have posted so far do not seem credible, and it appears that you jump to conclusions when the data available to you is much too limited to support that conclusion - such as this single still photo of a pitcher.

There are visitors and members who might not realize how limited your actual background is, and might cause harm to their own sons by following your advice. For their protection, I request that you stop posting this type of advice when it is based on far too little information to support the advice.
Last edited by MN-Mom
CC Coach Chris100+ posts
quote:
It is very inappropriate for you to continue to hijack this thread with your attempt at analysis, when the parent of this college pitcher posted above that she objected to your previous post!


I'm certainly not trying to cause any offense and will stop posting on this.

However, I do hope that people realize that sometimes problems have mechanical causes and can only be fixed by mechanical solutions.

And for the record, I don't think that means completely tearing down a pitcher's motion as Dr. Marshall would suggest.

Sorry for any problems I've caused.

Just trying to help.
P PGStaff10,000+ posts
CoachChris,

Enough already! He is at Clemson, they have more personal experience with arm injuries than you do. You should call them (Clemson coaching staff) and give them your thoughts rather than give them to all of us on a messageboard.

Barbara, sorry to hear about David, 06 catchers dad, sorry to hear about your son.

FWIW, Here is my experience. Have had a son (pitcher) with 2 surgeries including TJ. Have seen numerous arm injuries over many years. Nearly every one is first diagnosed by physician as tendinitis. Sometimes it is and sometimes it isn't! Arm injuries require specialist (not Coach Chris). Nearly every TJ surgery I've been around was first diagnosed as tendinitis.

CoachChris, While I have not studied as hard as you, I have had much more first hand experience. Reason I know that is because I've watched your video clip. I respect your passion and endless study regarding mechanics. However, my experience has been... Every pitcher out there is a candidate for elbow or shoulder surgery. As long as pitchers want to be successful pitching they will incorporate the best mechanics that will allow them to throw their very best. The arm is always at high risk for injury. There have been some with ideal mechanics require TJ or shoulder surgery. There have been some with unusually strange mechanics who pitched in the Big Leagues for a very long time without surgery.

This is not to say mechanics are not important. We all know the importance of good throwing mechanics. But you can give me the one high school or college pitcher you think has the very best mechanics and I could say he is a candidate for arm injury or surgery. That's the reason you have so many that you can research. You use results of those who have had long successful careers and claim they would have been even better with different mechanics. Please understand, give me 15 years of Major League pitching and MLB salary with bad mechanics and I'll laugh all the way to the operating table. How can you honestly claim someone would have been better with different mechanics. Is it possible that some might not even had a career if they threw the ball differently.

Here's hoping all your son's stay healthy or get healthy fast. Throwing a baseball is dangerous to the throwing arm and shoulder! I admire everyone who is willing to do it. There are many things besides mechanics that can help... good work ethic, good nutrition, good stretching, gaining strength, etc. etc. While I do believe mechanics are #1, there are many other reasons for arm injuries! In my experience... arm injuries require a specialist. I just have seen too many surgeries on players diagnosed with tendinitis by doctors.
06catcherdad06catcherdad1,000+ posts
PG is right on with his comments. A couple things have become apparent to me with our experience that I'd like to mention. First, the family practice doctor we saw barely manipulated my son's arm at all. He bent it around, barely. He twisted it back and forth, barely. He palpitated several locations on, above and below the elbow, barely. My point is thtat he didn't do anything that remotely resembled what our boys do every single time they throw a ball. The baseball orthopedist first shook my son's hand, and without warning put his other hand under his elbow and straightened son's arm. Not forcefully, but without warning and firmly with support from his own hand. Son just about hit the ceiling tiles. Some of the other manipulations included bending his arm back into a position like one does in their throwing motion just before the arm begins coming forward, and then he gently rotated it just a tad farther. Another visit toward the ceiling! When he palpitated various areas, he put more pressure on each spot than the family practice doc. When he did it over the ligament, yet another semi-religious experience for my son.

The point I'm trying to make with the above illustrations is that the first doctor suspected tendinitis and was going through motions associated with what he normally does with that complaint. He had no concept of what an arm goes through in throwing. The second doc suspected possible ligament problems based on what we told him at the beginning, and approached his exam in a completely different manner. The first doc has no experience with baseball and kept asking how much son has been pitching. First, we told him he doesn't pitch but is a catcher. Second, he hasn't been able to throw a single baseball for a month. A couple minutes later, he asked if he's been throwing too many curveballs! HUH? If anything ever happens to your son's arms, after seeing your primary care doc, you need to insist on seeing a qualified orthopedist early on if the problem is anything more than a moderate injury; that is, if your son wants to keep playing.

One final comment. I'm hoping to take another catcher from a local high school with us when we go back to our orthopedist. This boy has a torn UCL and will likely also require TJ surgery. The issue here is that the boy's family has Kaiser for their health insurance. This boy has been having elbow problems for about 18 months, and the Kaiser docs keep saying that it is tendinitis and he can play through it with no serious harm. He has been trying to play through the pain for over a year, but it just keeps getting worse. Finally, his baseball coach, on behalf of the parents, went to Kaiser with the boy and insisted that they refer him to an ortho. The ortho still didn't think UCL problems, and wouldn't do an MRI. I'm told things got kinda ugly between the baseball coach and the ortho. Finally, they did agree to do an arthroscopic "exploratory" procedure to see if anything serious was going on. During this surgery, they removed a couple bone chips and some sort of "mass" and did find during the procedure that his UCL is in fact torn. They now are willing to do TJ surgery, but the catch is the ortho who would do it has never done the procedure; but assured the family that it isn't that complicated and their son will be fine when he's done. Major red flags here! When I related this boy's story to our orthopedist, he had a completely puzzled look on his face, and told me that what this kid has gona through doesn't make sense to him. He couldn't understand why they'd do an exploratory surgery when they weren't willing to do an MRI. He is willing to see the boy and will decide what to do from there. The point here is that not all health insurance plans will willingly cover your son's injury, and might refer him to someone who is not well qualified to do the procedure. That might make the arm functional, but not baseball functional.

Sorry to be so long winded, again.
D DG100+ posts
I completely agree with TigerPaw about seeing an appropriately credentialled doctor anytime significant pain is in the arm.

I am fortunate that my brother in law is an orthopedic surgeon. He gives my HS pitcher son free exams every time the families get together. The one thing that I can pass on from my experience with him, which I don't think crosses the medical advice line, is that one day he was examining my son in a standing position with his shirt off and asked if he had been feeling any shoulder pain. My son said no. I asked why and he showed me that my son's throwing shoulder had drooped about 1/2 inch down and forward about 1/2 inch as compared to his none throwing shoulder. He said this is usually and indicator of a problem. Sure enough about two weeks later he started having minor shoulder pain. We promptly started him on prescribed physical therapy and within a week the shoulder pulled back into proper alignment and the pain was gone. Now I keep a very close eye on shoulder alignment and I would encourage others to do the same.
B BobbleheadDoll5,000+ posts
Barbara and 06 things will work out. You both did the right thing. Too many parents and coaches don't realize how a simple pain is telling you something.
You went for professional help and things will work out.
Chris you have an agenda and care nothing about thye people you advise. Your analysis are garbage in garbage out. I read a couple and you are so ambiguous and fill your work with fluff.
You are a dangerous man who knows no bounds. I am afraid for your sons and those who mibht be fooled by your double talk.
The advice given is to seek proper medical advice when you have pain period and stay away from the QUACKs.
RHP05ParentRHP05Parent1,000+ posts
TPM and 06catcherdad-
Heavy sigh Frown Thank you both for sharing what must be very distressing moments for both of you. I was so very sorry to read about your sons' recent injuries. We all live day to day knowing that any of our boys are possibly one throw away from this situation. My prayers are with both families that recoveries will be quick with successful results.
jemazjemaz1,000+ posts
A couple of things are very evident here:

1. Good health insurance is a must, which of course is a larger societal problem. It is complicated by the complications of baseball. A good HMO might not even do the trick. Required for prompt proper diagnosis and treament might be a traditional Blue Cross/Blue Shield plan, which nowadays is sometimes hard to come by and very often substantially more expensive.

2. It does not always work out even with the best of preparation and care, at least in a baseball sense. Once again we are reminded how fragile baseball success can be and how important it is to be in a place where life can be great with or without the baseball.
FrankFFrankF1,000+ posts
Good post by PG.

Of course everyone would love PERFECT mechanics (WHATEVER THAT MIGHT BE) pull_hair , but simply put, the human arm was not designed to throw a ball overhand.

There are no guarantees in baseball or in life. My son has always had it right when he says "his next pitch could be his last". One just never knows.

Here's hoping for speedy recoveries to DK and 06's son.
Last edited by FrankF
B BobbleheadDoll5,000+ posts
The Importance of going to a Specialist.

I have a daughter who at 1yr old was diagnosed with a disclocated hip bu her new doctor. Sent her to a surgeon who wanted to operate immediately. My wife refused to admit her without seeking specialist 2nd opinion. The surgery would leave her with a limp thye rest of her life.
Brother who went to school with the leading Specialists son called and got us an appointment.
He said no surgery,no limp but a full body cast for almost a year. The other surgeon got mad at my wife and said the other opinions would be the same.
23 YO and not a hint of the limp and can not remember flopping around in the cast.

Get the best advice you can.
M mrmom500+ posts
Since this thread was intended as a learning tool. Speaking from experience, though I'm sure this would not be the case at a fine institution and baseball school like Clemson, D-1s do watch their budget. Some will opt to assume the best and cheaper option rather than assume the worst and rule it out first. Some injuries respond best to immediate attention (see how the pros handle their athletes).

The learning here is you may be, like catcherdad06 the lone or at least best advocate for your son. Don't assume they will rush to spend their insurance companies money and risk premium increases if they can help it.

INSIST on an examination that rules out the worst first - not one that assumes the best!!!!

When you insist and end up being right don't expect them to "give you the love" if you know what I mean. They may take it ourt on your son!

Hate to sound skeptical but I've seen it first hand.
pull_hair
B boris100+ posts
TPM and 06...I am sorry to hear about your sons' baseball setbacks. However, as many posters have said, good for them and you for looking at the bigger picture and attending to the matter immediately. I can't even imagine the disappointment each of the boys must feel, but, hopefully they will maintain their focus and determination to get better and come back when they are able, and not before. Baseball, like lessons in life, is a marathon, not a sprint. Good luck to both of them.
TPMTPMHSBaseballweb Member since 2003
Thanks everyone for your emails and posts.

The normal course for any injury is an immediate wait and see attitude. If there is major inflammation, you have got to wait for that to subside. I have spoken to both coach and trainer and they are on top of things. The ortho is in charge right now and they will follow his instructions. And above all else, son did do the best thing by not trying to be macho man. This is one of those times I spoke about in a post. You put on your parent listening ears and give support.

The purpose again of the post is to let parents and players know that anything can happen, anytime to any player.

For those asking, I have sent a pm to Dr. Coach Chris, coach of 11 year olds and seeker of answers to mechanics and injuries. He has offered to call son's pitching coach to give his observations, but I respectfully have declined his kind jesture, due to his limited experience.

I am hoping all of yours have a GREAT baseball weekend! Now begins an unusul opening day of a double header, due to very poor weather expected this weekend.
Last edited by TPM
S snoop10+ posts
Another point to be made ..... in spite of doing all the right things, injuries will happen, especially to pitchers. The 'dream' can vanish in an instant. Keep things in perspective. Encourage your child to be a student first, athlete second. Sometimes this is hard to do with all the attention that comes with being a star athlete (and the attention that parents receive too). Wishing speedy recovery and much success to DK (and CU).
O Orlando1,000+ posts
I've also been away for a few days and only just read the thread. Thanks for thinking to post this, Barb, at a time when you must be very worried.

All kinds of good mojo heading to David and Our 06 Catcher from here in Florida. It's early season; they have time to recover and still contribute. I know you two will keep us updated.

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