Very interesting tag up situation....

It does indeed "break the baseline rule." See the 7.10(a) Comment below:

7.10 "Any runner shall be called out, on appeal, when—
(a) After a fly ball is caught, he fails to retouch his original base before he or his original base is tagged;
Rule 7.10(a) Comment: “Retouch,” in this rule, means to tag up and start from a contact with the base after the ball is caught. A runner is not permitted to take a flying start from a position in back of his base."

How do you folks in Minnesota come up with this? As someone recently said "I can't make this stuff up". Anyway, as an umpire I call him "out" for running out of the baseline........or............9.01(c) if that is insufficient. I'm pretty sure there's a rule on it but I don't have the books in front of me.

See RPD's comment. He's dead on.

quote:

Originally posted by therefump:
How do you folks in Minnesota come up with this? As someone recently said "I can't make this stuff up". Anyway, as an umpire I call him "out" for running out of the baseline........or............9.01(c) if that is insufficient. I'm pretty sure there's a rule on it but I don't have the books in front of me.

You can't make up rules. A runner may not run more than 3' in either direction out of his basepath to avoid a tag.

9.01 (c) if used primarily by umpires who do not know the rulebook. There are darn few things not covered by the book.

That sounds like a very interesting situation: However, I have absolutely no infraction of any rule whatsoever. He did not leave the baseline to avoid a tag, he retouched his base after the catch (I mean c'mon, are you seriously saying that rule 7.10 is supposed to infer that the runner "has to start from a contact with the base...and runner is not permitted to take a flying start.."??) That would be like saying that a pitcher who throws a pitch 25' in the air that comes down to the catcher through the strike zone is NOT a strike, because he doesn't do it like everyone else does!

I say kudos to that kid, and maybe his coach, for coming up with something different that I have never seen before, and is completely and totally within the scope of the rules! Bravo!!

Interesting.. I'd like to see some more Umps jump in here and see how the actual rules apply here..

quote:

Originally posted by Jamie Boval:
That sounds like a very interesting situation: However, I have absolutely no infraction of any rule whatsoever. He did not leave the baseline to avoid a tag, he retouched his base after the catch (I mean c'mon, are you seriously saying that rule 7.10 is supposed to infer that the runner "has to start from a contact with the base...and runner is not permitted to take a flying start.."??) That would be like saying that a pitcher who throws a pitch 25' in the air that comes down to the catcher through the strike zone is NOT a strike, because he doesn't do it like everyone else does!

I say kudos to that kid, and maybe his coach, for coming up with something different that I have never seen before, and is completely and totally within the scope of the rules! Bravo!!

The rules do indeed prohibit a "flying start" which has always been interpreted as the player muust be on the same side of the bag as his next base. This is not softball.

This is not new. Coaches and players have tried to cheat using this before. No kudos to anyone.

quote:

Originally posted by Jamie Boval:
That sounds like a very interesting situation: However, I have absolutely no infraction of any rule whatsoever. He did not leave the baseline to avoid a tag, he retouched his base after the catch (I mean c'mon, are you seriously saying that rule 7.10 is supposed to infer that the runner "has to start from a contact with the base...and runner is not permitted to take a flying start.."??)

I say kudos to that kid, and maybe his coach, for coming up with something different that I have never seen before, and is completely and totally within the scope of the rules! Bravo!!

Jamie,

This is why WE have to study the rulebook. It may not make sense for you, but it is clearly the case if you will read the rule...

Since this is a HS site I will quote the NFHS rule first....

NFHS Rule 8-4-2o A runner may not get a running start from behind the base when tagging on a fly ball.

Penalty: The runner is called out IMMEDIATELY and the ball remains alive...

NCAA Rule 8-6a-2 same as FED but the out is only on appeal...

OBR Rule 7-10 COMMENT...“Retouch,” in this rule, means to tag up and start from a contact with the base after the ball is caught. A runner is not permitted to take a flying start from a position in back of his base." but it is only out on appeal...

IN a FED game call the kid out immediately...its not legal.....

quote:

Originally posted by Jamie Boval:
That sounds like a very interesting situation: However, I have absolutely no infraction of any rule whatsoever. He did not leave the baseline to avoid a tag, he retouched his base after the catch (I mean c'mon, are you seriously saying that rule 7.10 is supposed to infer that the runner "has to start from a contact with the base...and runner is not permitted to take a flying start.."??) That would be like saying that a pitcher who throws a pitch 25' in the air that comes down to the catcher through the strike zone is NOT a strike, because he doesn't do it like everyone else does!

I say kudos to that kid, and maybe his coach, for coming up with something different that I have never seen before, and is completely and totally within the scope of the rules! Bravo!!

Rule 7.10(a) Comment doesn't infer anything. It states directly that a runner is not permitted to take a flying start from a position in back of his base. If you choose to infer that the scope of the rules permits a runner to take a flying start from a position in back of his base, that is your prerogative, but you better hope such a "retouch" is not properly appealed.

Sorry, I got LL Rules on the brain, and I can't find any reference to it being against the rules in their rules set. That being said, this is High School forum, so my bad.

quote:

Originally posted by Jamie Boval:
Sorry, I got LL Rules on the brain, and I can't find any reference to it being against the rules in their rules set. That being said, this is High School forum, so my bad.

Hey no problem.....Im sure when MST comes around he can give us the LL viewpoint since he has extensive LL knowledge....

My prime reference book is the BRD By Carl Childress, it keeps me up to date on the 3 main codes I call....NFHS/NCAA/OBR...I wish someone would do youth league version...its pricey, but its a good investment...

Jamie -- not a problem.

Just FYI, the Rule 10(a)"Comment" referred to was not a comment that I made up. It's a part of the actual OBR rulebook (although I realize that's not the code that applies to HS or LL).

quote:

Originally posted by Jamie Boval:
Sorry, I got LL Rules on the brain, and I can't find any reference to it being against the rules in their rules set. That being said, this is High School forum, so my bad.

Well, then I'd say you're not trying very hard to find it. The first rule reference provided here was from OBR 7.10(a). Here's what the same rule number [7.10(a)] in the LL rulebook reads: "....(NOTE: “Retouch” in this rule means to tag up and start from a contact with the base after the ball is caught. A runner is not permitted to take a flying start from a position in back of, and not touching, the base);"

Simply put, It is not a legal tag under OBR so the if appealed you call him out, just like if he never tagged up.

Yep, you're all right, I am wrong. 3Finger, you are right, I was not looking hard. Anyone else want to get their jollies off on pointing out that I was wrong? I am glad there are so many here that have always been right, and never experienced an incorrect comment. The amount of class shown on the board is staggering. Good riddance. I can surely find somewhere else that I can be told I am incorrect in my statement without so much glee being expressed.

Looks like you got some idiot umpires in Minnesota.

Jamie Boval:
Are you really that thin-skinned?

I actually saw this play in a SOFTBALL game, and the reason I posted this question was because when I asked the kid who did the tag, he said he has always done that, in high school and also in college. I couldn't believe this considering I also played college ball and seemed to me that a broke a rule somewhere. Thanks for the information and the answer to my question. I'm sure the correct call would have been made had it been an actual high school game, or any league that wasn't bar softball. My high school coach always said, "just when you think you've seen it all, you see something you've never seen before." So thanks again for the quick responses and answers.

Lefty, thanks for posting! Don't be a stranger here -- it's a great group.

Jimmy03 and Rob Kremer

Remember, guys, TONE is not infered when writing. If you're all experts then go for it and take people out at the jugular. How are people supposed to learn if they're ducking from critics like yourselves.

Jeez, glad I'm not partnering any games with you guys.

quote:

Originally posted by therefump:
Jimmy03 and Rob Kremer

Remember, guys, TONE is not infered when writing. If you're all experts then go for it and take people out at the jugular. How are people supposed to learn if they're ducking from critics like yourselves.

Jeez, glad I'm not partnering any games with you guys.

Re-read your first sentence and apply it when you are reading the posts with which you do not agree.

I would work anyone at this site. I would work with anyone who puts on the uniform and tries his best to provide a service to the Game.

I would even work with an umpire who is unfamiliar with the rules and makes one or two up as he goes along.

As a trainer, I work with all levels of umpires. My job in my two associatins is to educate and train and help raise the level of performance and knowledge of those umpires who genuinely want to improve.

You have a choice when it is pointed out that you misinterpreted a rule. Learn from it or take it personally get pi$$ed.

Best of luck in your games this summer.

You can say all you want to defend being rude and arrogant and displaying a self-satisfying demeanor when you correct a person's mistake on here.

Don't you dare say that I had no right not to get ****ed at the way I was corrected. I have no problem being wrong and shown the errors of my ways, however, when I do so to someone else, I do it with sensitivity to their ego, not to inflate my own. I don't care who you are, the lesson to be learned from being corrected like you're a dumba** gets lost in the anger over being treated as such. Trust me, I have learned much from this experience, although it has little to do with baseball, and a lot to do with character, class, and what I call 'email muscles'. Can you honestly say that the way 'some' of you have 'put me in my place' would be the way you would treat me face to face? I certainly hope you don't treat others in your industry this way.

There are a couple of people on here that I value their input and respect their take on things. It shows the type of people they are... actually, I learned that from all the responses on here.

As far as my 'thin skin'- I have very thick skin when dealing with players, coaches, and the like. However, when someone in my own 'group' treats me like that, it is a different matter. Like I said before... "you've never blown a call?" How would you react to a coach telling you to go home tonight and look harder at the rule book with arrogance and attitude?

There, done, not coming back to this board, not checking this post, don't care what most of you think about what I have said, but I have said my piece and had my rant. Delete it if you like.

Jamie:

My only post to you was:

"The rules do indeed prohibit a "flying start" which has always been interpreted as the player muust be on the same side of the bag as his next base. This is not softball.

This is not new. Coaches and players have tried to cheat using this before. No kudos to anyone."

I see nothing to get excited about. What am I missing?

I guess it is time for me to address this situation...and as such I am sorry that it has come to this.... I will not delete this thread because it has always been my opinion as Moderator to allow valid and constructive dialog....sometimes that can be painful, yet the Umpires who are here and many that have come in every so often have always been a very collegial group.

This site is not an UMPIRE chat room...this is a site for HS Players/Coaches/Parents. Our small part of it has always been to be a reference to those posters who come to us looking for rules interpretations, advice opinions and a place to vent some of the inevitabile conflicts that occur on the field.

So it is imperative that we present correct information.....it does not serve any of us or our "clients" if we do not strive to be as correct as possible....

We also can not bicker back and forth...I would like to think that over the years we have made great inroads in the player/parent/coach community in establishing a better working relationship between the HSBBW Family and umpires.....

We have never hidden behind the "blue wall"...and if something was wrong, or a ruling was blown, or a rule was made up.....we have called our brother blues out on it...and not made any excuses for poor knowledge or behaviors......

I have PM'd many of you in regards to sites that are just that....places where we can go to discuss all those things, but in an umpire setting which is at the root of Jamie's concern....I know that many of us are there already....and I am glad to say that many of our HSBBW umpire posters are active, and respected posters there as well....

Those sites are also the deep end of the pool and you need to have serious thick skin if you are going to present an opinion or interp that does not conform to the major reference materials...those are the sites to work/read/post with if you are learning.....you can access some of the finest umpires who will present some fairly advanced materials....

PM me if you need addresses...

The last thing I want to address is TONE....I would not want anyone to infer that arrogance or insult is inferred by the words type written on a page...Our tone is meant to be factual....not imperious or insulting.....I say OUR because no one ever says "that umpire is bad", they say THOSE umpires are bad.....so if one of us insults someone then we all have insulted them.....

I do not want any umpire to leave this site because they feel mistreated, yet I want those here to know that we value everyones contributions.....yet, we will still and MUST continue to provide factual and accurate information.....

I am happy to say that all of our current posters have shown exceptional knowledge and experience in that area....and I thank all of them for their contributions...

PM me for further discussions if you feel the need to do so.....

PIAA:

Very well said.

Several of us here have been active on those other "sites" and have chosen not to continue.

This site, when practiced as you have described, has a delicate balance of our obligation to provide correct information, not allow incorrect information to go unchallenged, welcome questions, and provide back-up, called for, of interpretation.

Because of the diverse audience here, the group has done, I believe, an excellent job of not getting personal toward individuals. We have, on occasion made personal comments regarding unknown groups, e.g. "what on earth are some of these umpire thinking?"; but I don't recall anyone, since a certain imposter left last year, that has intentionally and personally attacked another poster.

This is a great site and you and Michael do a great job keeping it that way.

If anyone thinks this place is rough or insulting, I suggest they PM you and take a close look at the sites to which you referred.

quote:

Originally posted by piaa_ump:

quote:

Originally posted by Jamie Boval:
Sorry, I got LL Rules on the brain, and I can't find any reference to it being against the rules in their rules set. That being said, this is High School forum, so my bad.

Hey no problem.....Im sure when MST comes around he can give us the LL viewpoint since he has extensive LL knowledge....

My prime reference book is the BRD By Carl

Childress, it keeps me up to date on the 3 main codes I call....NFHS/NCAA/OBR...I wish someone would do youth league version...its pricey, but its a good investment...

The flying start is also against the rules in LL.

The LL rule is the same as OBR. Remember that unless there is a specific LL rule counter to OBR, go with obr's rules and interps.
Now I have been away from the board for a while because of work and have just read this whole thread. I am disappointed with some of the reactions through the thread. Remember when writing some tone or humor can be lost. The only thing I saw the least bit untoward was the comment and not looking very hard for the LL rule. I read that as a mild bit of sarcasm not a slam. I thought it was saying that there may have been a difference between what the poster remembered and what he actually read. It turns out that the rule in OBR and LL is identical.
I think this is a very user friendly board and the general purpose is to explain to nonumpires the rulings as we use them.
As far as the comment about how we would feel if a coach would tell us to go home and read the rulebook closer. The fact is this happens far more than we would like. I had a coach tell me the other night that we must be making it up as we go along. He also said we were ripping his team off. I was 100% correct, he just didn't like the interp.